WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.823 --> 00:00:06.740 (people speaking indistinctly) 2 00:00:08.611 --> 00:00:11.028 (soft music) 3 00:00:28.120 --> 00:00:31.691 - [Voiceover] Can you tell me when it all began? 4 00:00:31.691 --> 00:00:34.858 Can you just go back to the beginning? 5 00:00:42.192 --> 00:00:45.118 - [Voiceover] Do you remember what you were doing in 1975? 6 00:00:45.118 --> 00:00:47.201 How old were you in 1975? 7 00:00:52.838 --> 00:00:57.005 - [Voiceover] How do you think they found out about you? 8 00:01:02.429 --> 00:01:03.647 - [Voiceover] Did he use his own passport? 9 00:01:03.647 --> 00:01:05.480 How'd he get to Paris? 10 00:01:06.909 --> 00:01:10.322 - [Voiceover] When was the last time you saw your wife? 11 00:01:10.322 --> 00:01:11.837 - [Voiceover] Where were you and what were you doing 12 00:01:11.837 --> 00:01:14.170 when you were arrested, sir? 13 00:01:21.512 --> 00:01:22.754 - [Voiceover] You said you were tortured. 14 00:01:22.754 --> 00:01:25.171 What do you mean by tortured? 15 00:01:31.009 --> 00:01:32.229 - [Voiceover] Tell me once again, sir, 16 00:01:32.229 --> 00:01:34.062 what you're afraid of. 17 00:02:42.132 --> 00:02:44.693 - [Voiceover] A supervisor came up to me. 18 00:02:44.693 --> 00:02:46.121 After I discussed the case with him 19 00:02:46.121 --> 00:02:48.608 I told him what my decision was and he said, 20 00:02:48.608 --> 00:02:49.935 "How are you gonna feel if this guy goes back 21 00:02:49.935 --> 00:02:53.035 "and somebody puts a bullet in his head?" 22 00:02:53.035 --> 00:02:55.925 And I said, "I'm gonna feel terrible about it, obviously, 23 00:02:55.925 --> 00:02:58.328 "but I have to make a decision and I have to live with it. 24 00:02:58.328 --> 00:02:59.919 "That's what this job is about. 25 00:02:59.919 --> 00:03:04.099 "You make a decision about people's futures." 26 00:03:04.099 --> 00:03:06.682 (somber music) 27 00:04:37.740 --> 00:04:39.185 - Okay, well what he's saying 28 00:04:39.185 --> 00:04:42.784 that when after his work, he entered the cafe 29 00:04:42.784 --> 00:04:46.951 where the youngsters from one of these nationalistic groups 30 00:04:49.088 --> 00:04:51.230 were having their meeting. 31 00:04:51.230 --> 00:04:52.465 From his appearance 32 00:04:52.465 --> 00:04:55.392 they immediately recognized him as a Jew, 33 00:04:55.392 --> 00:04:59.048 so they followed him and they beated him. 34 00:04:59.048 --> 00:05:00.812 Basically the beating occurred in the lobby 35 00:05:00.812 --> 00:05:02.045 without any witnesses. 36 00:05:02.045 --> 00:05:03.545 - [Kevin] Mmm hmm. 37 00:05:11.671 --> 00:05:14.783 - Yeah, he really feared at that point for his life 38 00:05:14.783 --> 00:05:16.652 but it was at that point too late 39 00:05:16.652 --> 00:05:19.682 and he didn't manage to escape from them. 40 00:05:19.682 --> 00:05:23.682 - [Kevin] And so you got up and you walked away? 41 00:05:29.764 --> 00:05:32.122 - Yeah, it was October and it was pretty cold 42 00:05:32.122 --> 00:05:36.425 so he left to the, you know, to the hold, to the vestibule, 43 00:05:36.425 --> 00:05:39.494 and he wanted to check his coat 44 00:05:39.494 --> 00:05:42.208 because he left his coat, you know, in the cloakroom, 45 00:05:42.208 --> 00:05:45.935 and at that point they approached him. 46 00:05:45.935 --> 00:05:47.787 - [Kevin] And was there somebody in the coatroom? 47 00:05:47.787 --> 00:05:48.620 - [Woman] There was an old lady. 48 00:05:48.620 --> 00:05:49.953 He told already. 49 00:05:53.947 --> 00:05:55.123 - [Woman] Yes, yes. 50 00:05:55.123 --> 00:05:57.968 - [Kevin] But now you tell me that there are no witnesses. 51 00:05:57.968 --> 00:05:59.472 I mean, and if the attack occurred-- 52 00:05:59.472 --> 00:06:00.889 - Except for her. 53 00:06:04.543 --> 00:06:05.960 - Yeah, the lady. 54 00:06:08.751 --> 00:06:10.929 - It was a working day and it was night 55 00:06:10.929 --> 00:06:13.160 so there was no one there. 56 00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:14.410 - [Kevin] Okay. 57 00:06:18.583 --> 00:06:22.727 - My difficulties start after they officially 58 00:06:22.727 --> 00:06:25.896 knew that I'm a member of the Anglican Church. 59 00:06:25.896 --> 00:06:30.063 My husband was stopped on street one night when he came home 60 00:06:31.817 --> 00:06:33.618 and he was severely beaten. 61 00:06:33.618 --> 00:06:35.618 - [Peter] When was this? 62 00:06:37.380 --> 00:06:38.547 - In November. 63 00:06:39.713 --> 00:06:40.883 - [Peter] Of '96? 64 00:06:40.883 --> 00:06:42.050 - Of '96, yes. 65 00:06:43.925 --> 00:06:48.662 And he was told, and he was told, and he was told that, 66 00:06:48.662 --> 00:06:50.662 he was told in his face, 67 00:06:52.331 --> 00:06:55.662 when he run, because he managed to run. 68 00:06:55.662 --> 00:06:58.183 He defend himself and he managed to run. 69 00:06:58.183 --> 00:07:01.004 Otherwise he would have been more severely beaten. 70 00:07:01.004 --> 00:07:05.287 And he was told that because he was beaten because of me 71 00:07:05.287 --> 00:07:08.204 it was an advertisement given to me 72 00:07:09.165 --> 00:07:11.349 and if I were return in Romania, 73 00:07:11.349 --> 00:07:14.516 I will be raped and he will be killed. 74 00:07:18.013 --> 00:07:20.781 After that, my house was searched 75 00:07:20.781 --> 00:07:23.448 and also they wrote on my walls, 76 00:07:24.526 --> 00:07:26.109 "Out you Anglican." 77 00:07:27.196 --> 00:07:28.029 - [Peter] Okay. 78 00:07:28.029 --> 00:07:29.483 And at what point did you inform them 79 00:07:29.483 --> 00:07:31.027 that you were Anglican? 80 00:07:31.027 --> 00:07:32.804 - I didn't show them any paper. 81 00:07:32.804 --> 00:07:34.569 I was not supposed to do that, 82 00:07:34.569 --> 00:07:37.669 to show them papers that I'm Anglican, that I was received-- 83 00:07:37.669 --> 00:07:39.218 - [Peter] Oh was it like casual conversation? 84 00:07:39.218 --> 00:07:40.216 - Yes it was. 85 00:07:40.216 --> 00:07:41.958 You asked me when it was a first time. 86 00:07:41.958 --> 00:07:46.125 They have found exactly and officially that I'm Anglican. 87 00:07:47.880 --> 00:07:49.481 - [Peter] How did they find that out? 88 00:07:49.481 --> 00:07:51.017 - We'll get to that point. 89 00:07:51.017 --> 00:07:51.850 After my bags were-- 90 00:07:51.850 --> 00:07:54.158 - [Man In Suit] Answer the questions. 91 00:07:54.158 --> 00:07:56.131 - [Peter] This is my interview, not yours, okay? 92 00:07:56.131 --> 00:07:57.513 How did you, 93 00:07:57.513 --> 00:07:58.723 don't worry she's not antagonizing me. 94 00:07:58.723 --> 00:07:59.556 Don't worry about it. 95 00:07:59.556 --> 00:08:00.389 - [Man In Suit] Okay, all right. 96 00:08:00.389 --> 00:08:01.735 - Just want to backtrack a little bit. 97 00:08:01.735 --> 00:08:06.669 One thing I wanted to ask you before and I forgot. 98 00:08:06.669 --> 00:08:10.836 What are the sacraments that the Anglican Church recognizes? 99 00:08:12.277 --> 00:08:16.496 - It's holy communion and the holy trinity. 100 00:08:16.496 --> 00:08:18.153 (woman chuckles) 101 00:08:18.153 --> 00:08:20.013 - [Peter] In what language was the Anglican service? 102 00:08:20.013 --> 00:08:20.846 - [Ana Marie] In English. 103 00:08:20.846 --> 00:08:21.679 - [Peter] Conducted in Romania? 104 00:08:21.679 --> 00:08:22.521 - [Ana Marie] In English. 105 00:08:22.521 --> 00:08:24.396 - [Peter] Who is the head of the Anglican Church? 106 00:08:24.396 --> 00:08:26.747 - The head of the Anglican Church in Romania is-- 107 00:08:26.747 --> 00:08:27.861 - [Peter] Overall. 108 00:08:27.861 --> 00:08:29.359 - Overall, it's a bishop. 109 00:08:29.359 --> 00:08:31.787 Bishop of Gibraltar, he's called. 110 00:08:31.787 --> 00:08:34.620 Now he's Bishop John of Gibraltar. 111 00:08:51.538 --> 00:08:54.806 - [Voiceover] Sue Chan, window four. 112 00:08:54.806 --> 00:08:55.833 - [Voiceover] Do you understand English? 113 00:08:55.833 --> 00:08:58.493 - How do you say this name, Carlos? 114 00:08:58.493 --> 00:08:59.326 Shang? 115 00:09:00.419 --> 00:09:02.486 - Okay, Shang Chiao. 116 00:09:02.486 --> 00:09:03.319 Says C-H. 117 00:09:03.319 --> 00:09:04.402 Chiao Chang. 118 00:09:04.402 --> 00:09:05.235 - Chiao Chang. 119 00:09:05.235 --> 00:09:06.643 - [Carlos] Shang Chiao Chang. 120 00:09:06.643 --> 00:09:08.418 - Cheryl Shian Chang. 121 00:09:08.418 --> 00:09:09.705 Cheryl Chian Chen. 122 00:09:09.705 --> 00:09:11.288 Window two, please. 123 00:09:12.178 --> 00:09:13.779 - [Voiceover] Edwin Papranni, window five. 124 00:09:13.779 --> 00:09:15.729 - Hey that was good, at least it got them off. 125 00:09:15.729 --> 00:09:17.843 - [Voiceover] If you're an asylum applicant, 126 00:09:17.843 --> 00:09:20.224 two weeks after you see an asylum officer 127 00:09:20.224 --> 00:09:22.650 you come back in the afternoon for the decision. 128 00:09:22.650 --> 00:09:25.067 (soft music) 129 00:09:27.589 --> 00:09:29.997 Congratulations on a recommended approval 130 00:09:29.997 --> 00:09:32.157 means you're on the road the to a green card, 131 00:09:32.157 --> 00:09:34.397 the right to apply for citizenship, 132 00:09:34.397 --> 00:09:36.249 the chance to become an American. 133 00:09:36.249 --> 00:09:37.082 - Hi, sir. 134 00:09:37.082 --> 00:09:38.040 Do you have ID? 135 00:09:38.040 --> 00:09:39.198 - [Man] Yeah, license and passport. 136 00:09:39.198 --> 00:09:40.075 - That's good. 137 00:09:40.075 --> 00:09:42.206 License is good. 138 00:09:42.206 --> 00:09:43.141 (mumbles) 139 00:09:43.141 --> 00:09:45.224 You speak English, right? 140 00:09:50.083 --> 00:09:50.916 Okay, sir. 141 00:09:50.916 --> 00:09:53.891 The office has been unable to come to decision on your case. 142 00:09:53.891 --> 00:09:56.318 The case has been referred to the immigration judge. 143 00:09:56.318 --> 00:09:57.850 This is not a denial of your case. 144 00:09:57.850 --> 00:09:59.395 - [Voiceover] If the answer is no, 145 00:09:59.395 --> 00:10:00.880 if the asylum officer has decided 146 00:10:00.880 --> 00:10:03.678 to deny your request for asylum, 147 00:10:03.678 --> 00:10:05.723 you'll be told that the office has been unable 148 00:10:05.723 --> 00:10:09.890 to come to a decision and that your case has been referred. 149 00:10:10.949 --> 00:10:11.782 - [Woman Behind Window] And you're going to have to 150 00:10:11.782 --> 00:10:14.365 sign it for your two kids, sir. 151 00:10:19.687 --> 00:10:22.578 - [Voiceover] You do get a second chance to tell your story 152 00:10:22.578 --> 00:10:26.212 in what used to be called a deportation hearing. 153 00:10:26.212 --> 00:10:28.430 And if your case is turned down there 154 00:10:28.430 --> 00:10:31.018 the judge declares immediately when and how 155 00:10:31.018 --> 00:10:32.675 you must leave the country. 156 00:10:32.675 --> 00:10:36.508 - [Woman Behind Window] This is for the judge. 157 00:10:37.503 --> 00:10:38.920 Here you go, sir. 158 00:10:42.043 --> 00:10:45.374 - [Voiceover] Only one in five cases are reversed in court, 159 00:10:45.374 --> 00:10:49.374 so in practical terms the decision is made here. 160 00:10:52.183 --> 00:10:53.525 - [Woman In Floral Dress] Ana Marie Motay. 161 00:10:53.525 --> 00:10:55.692 Window number six, please. 162 00:11:03.270 --> 00:11:04.268 Hi, you have ID? 163 00:11:04.268 --> 00:11:05.101 - Yes. 164 00:11:18.130 --> 00:11:18.963 - Boris Mintally. 165 00:11:18.963 --> 00:11:20.546 Window two, please. 166 00:11:32.862 --> 00:11:35.078 Hi, good afternoon, sir. 167 00:11:35.078 --> 00:11:35.911 Is this you? 168 00:11:35.911 --> 00:11:37.022 Are you Boris? 169 00:11:37.022 --> 00:11:37.855 - Yeah. 170 00:11:40.656 --> 00:11:41.738 - [Woman In Floral Dress] The Service has not made 171 00:11:41.738 --> 00:11:43.119 a decision on her case, 172 00:11:43.119 --> 00:11:45.332 so her case is still pending with the Service. 173 00:11:45.332 --> 00:11:47.955 But she has been referred to immigration judge 174 00:11:47.955 --> 00:11:50.713 for further consideration of her case. 175 00:11:50.713 --> 00:11:52.837 The judge will also make the final determination 176 00:11:52.837 --> 00:11:54.420 on the application. 177 00:11:56.727 --> 00:11:58.394 Okay, any questions? 178 00:12:00.291 --> 00:12:01.672 - No. 179 00:12:01.672 --> 00:12:03.066 I don't really have-- 180 00:12:03.066 --> 00:12:05.637 - [Man] I don't think I have any questions. 181 00:12:05.637 --> 00:12:06.730 - [Woman In Floral Dress] Okay, that's it. 182 00:12:06.730 --> 00:12:07.563 - [Man] Okay. 183 00:12:07.563 --> 00:12:08.396 - [Woman In Floral Dress] Good luck with the judge. 184 00:12:08.396 --> 00:12:09.646 - [Man] Thank you. 185 00:12:09.646 --> 00:12:10.479 - [Peter] You know, I can understand 186 00:12:10.479 --> 00:12:12.019 her desire to stay here. 187 00:12:12.019 --> 00:12:14.896 She could make a much better life for herself here, 188 00:12:14.896 --> 00:12:16.198 but that's not grounds for asylum. 189 00:12:16.198 --> 00:12:17.213 A lot of people would like to come here 190 00:12:17.213 --> 00:12:18.050 and better their lives, 191 00:12:18.050 --> 00:12:19.665 but it's not grounds for asylum. 192 00:12:19.665 --> 00:12:21.868 - [Ana Marie] What did this officer want? 193 00:12:21.868 --> 00:12:24.728 They want somebody to cry, to beg them? 194 00:12:24.728 --> 00:12:26.905 To fall on their knees? 195 00:12:26.905 --> 00:12:29.168 - How many Anglicans do you know 196 00:12:29.168 --> 00:12:30.823 don't know that the Archbishop of Cantebury's 197 00:12:30.823 --> 00:12:33.734 the head of the Anglican Church? 198 00:12:33.734 --> 00:12:36.114 And how many Anglicans do you know 199 00:12:36.114 --> 00:12:38.954 don't know the sacraments in the Anglican Church? 200 00:12:38.954 --> 00:12:40.544 If she claims that she went there every week 201 00:12:40.544 --> 00:12:42.194 and took communion? 202 00:12:42.194 --> 00:12:44.027 - Do you have ID, sir? 203 00:12:56.828 --> 00:12:57.661 Here you go. 204 00:12:57.661 --> 00:12:59.232 Thank you. 205 00:12:59.232 --> 00:13:00.649 It's okay. 206 00:13:00.649 --> 00:13:01.482 (woman chuckles) 207 00:13:01.482 --> 00:13:03.837 The Service is recommending that your case be approved 208 00:13:03.837 --> 00:13:06.014 so congratulations to you. 209 00:13:06.014 --> 00:13:06.847 (soft music) 210 00:13:06.847 --> 00:13:09.683 This is a recommended approval, which means, sir, 211 00:13:09.683 --> 00:13:13.850 that at this point your background is being checked. 212 00:13:15.186 --> 00:13:17.764 So once we get your fingerprints back 213 00:13:17.764 --> 00:13:20.051 then the case will be granted and you'll be notified. 214 00:13:20.051 --> 00:13:23.522 We'll send your letter in the mail, okay? 215 00:13:23.522 --> 00:13:27.702 Okay, I just need for you to sign the letter, sir. 216 00:13:27.702 --> 00:13:30.489 - [Kevin] Well I granted him. 217 00:13:30.489 --> 00:13:31.572 It's not like anybody with that claim 218 00:13:31.572 --> 00:13:33.037 is going to get granted asylum. 219 00:13:33.037 --> 00:13:35.079 There are a lot of people who come in here 220 00:13:35.079 --> 00:13:38.295 who allege that they've been beaten and targeted or whatever 221 00:13:38.295 --> 00:13:39.363 because they're Jewish 222 00:13:39.363 --> 00:13:40.617 and they're living in the Soviet Union 223 00:13:40.617 --> 00:13:41.941 or the former Soviet Union. 224 00:13:41.941 --> 00:13:44.854 There are a lot of those cases that are fabricated, though. 225 00:13:44.854 --> 00:13:46.481 I mean, that's my opinion. 226 00:13:46.481 --> 00:13:47.757 - [Woman Behind Window] Congratulations! 227 00:13:47.757 --> 00:13:50.375 - I mean, there were inconsistencies in his claim. 228 00:13:50.375 --> 00:13:52.964 So in his case I overlooked some of them. 229 00:13:52.964 --> 00:13:53.835 And it's funny. 230 00:13:53.835 --> 00:13:57.121 Sometimes the cases that are real, 231 00:13:57.121 --> 00:13:59.038 that aren't fabricated, 232 00:14:00.986 --> 00:14:04.011 often have more inconsistencies, you know? 233 00:14:04.011 --> 00:14:07.594 Usually sometimes a story that's fabricated 234 00:14:09.769 --> 00:14:12.963 and that's rehearsed is gonna be tighter, 235 00:14:12.963 --> 00:14:17.130 so that's kind of the irony of all of this, you know? 236 00:14:20.348 --> 00:14:23.315 (people speaking indistinctly) 237 00:14:23.315 --> 00:14:26.183 - [Employee Behind Window] What time is the appointment? 238 00:14:26.183 --> 00:14:28.350 - This is for immigration. 239 00:14:29.935 --> 00:14:31.525 Immigration. 240 00:14:31.525 --> 00:14:33.515 - [Employee Behind Window] Okay, what time? 241 00:14:33.515 --> 00:14:34.348 - Nine. 242 00:14:34.348 --> 00:14:35.181 - [Employee Behind Window] Nine? 243 00:14:35.181 --> 00:14:36.442 - Nine. 244 00:14:36.442 --> 00:14:39.109 - And the lawyer's not here yet? 245 00:14:40.329 --> 00:14:41.162 Mike? 246 00:14:42.242 --> 00:14:43.075 Come here. 247 00:14:45.007 --> 00:14:47.640 Who came in with them? 248 00:14:47.640 --> 00:14:48.709 - They have an interpreter 249 00:14:48.709 --> 00:14:50.126 and they were waiting on the lawyer but-- 250 00:14:50.126 --> 00:14:50.961 - [Employee Behind Window] They have an interpreter? 251 00:14:50.961 --> 00:14:51.794 - Yeah. 252 00:14:51.794 --> 00:14:52.627 - [Employee Behind Window] Who is the interpreter? 253 00:14:52.627 --> 00:14:53.460 - He went on the news. 254 00:14:53.460 --> 00:14:54.389 Where did he go? 255 00:14:54.389 --> 00:14:55.946 - [Older Man] Nine. 256 00:14:55.946 --> 00:14:56.779 - Where did he go? 257 00:14:56.779 --> 00:14:57.732 - [Employee Behind Window] 'Cause he's not following me. 258 00:14:57.732 --> 00:14:58.565 - Huh? 259 00:14:58.565 --> 00:14:59.398 - He's not understanding me at all. 260 00:14:59.398 --> 00:15:01.377 See if anybody out there speaks Russian. 261 00:15:01.377 --> 00:15:02.460 Just for now. 262 00:15:06.231 --> 00:15:08.898 - [Guard] Anybody speak Russian? 263 00:15:33.820 --> 00:15:35.765 - [Voiceover] Mohammad Khadi? 264 00:15:35.765 --> 00:15:36.811 Mohammad? 265 00:15:36.811 --> 00:15:37.884 - You know this is you, right? 266 00:15:37.884 --> 00:15:38.717 Peter? 267 00:15:38.717 --> 00:15:39.748 - This is for me? 268 00:15:39.748 --> 00:15:40.581 - Yeah, this is for you. 269 00:15:40.581 --> 00:15:43.409 - [Voiceover] I'll do it as soon as I get off. 270 00:15:43.409 --> 00:15:44.909 I sense a Russian. 271 00:15:46.092 --> 00:15:48.227 - [Seated Employee] You're good. 272 00:15:48.227 --> 00:15:49.763 - [Voiceover] Okay, give me just a minute. 273 00:15:49.763 --> 00:15:52.096 - Oh my God, Roman Fovkosky. 274 00:15:54.022 --> 00:15:57.434 - Well at least you can pronounce the name. 275 00:15:57.434 --> 00:15:58.596 - [Peter] Could be Ukrainian, though. 276 00:15:58.596 --> 00:16:02.096 From looking at it, probably is Ukrainian. 277 00:16:03.962 --> 00:16:05.249 - [Voiceover] You don't have a? 278 00:16:05.249 --> 00:16:07.269 Okay, what's the alien number? 279 00:16:07.269 --> 00:16:09.069 - [Peter] If you're an applicant, 280 00:16:09.069 --> 00:16:10.984 you play asylum officer roulette here. 281 00:16:10.984 --> 00:16:13.828 (somber music) 282 00:16:13.828 --> 00:16:16.905 Your chances of getting a grant depend on who you get 283 00:16:16.905 --> 00:16:19.566 as much as what your claim is, 284 00:16:19.566 --> 00:16:22.083 simply because, you know, 285 00:16:22.083 --> 00:16:23.488 everybody's got their own threshold, 286 00:16:23.488 --> 00:16:25.427 everybody has their own interpretation of the law, 287 00:16:25.427 --> 00:16:27.947 everybody has their own willingness to believe 288 00:16:27.947 --> 00:16:29.850 or suspend disbelief. 289 00:16:29.850 --> 00:16:32.231 It's just the way the system is. 290 00:16:32.231 --> 00:16:33.240 It's a human system 291 00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:36.967 and that's the way human people operate. 292 00:16:36.967 --> 00:16:38.662 - [Kevin] How about this, though. 293 00:16:38.662 --> 00:16:40.091 When you hear a story 294 00:16:40.091 --> 00:16:42.822 over and over and over again, 295 00:16:42.822 --> 00:16:44.880 does that affect your decision? 296 00:16:44.880 --> 00:16:45.713 - [Peter] No, no. 297 00:16:45.713 --> 00:16:46.546 I still listen to 'em. 298 00:16:46.546 --> 00:16:47.379 I mean, (mumbles) 299 00:16:47.379 --> 00:16:48.394 this may be the one who's telling the truth. 300 00:16:48.394 --> 00:16:50.269 How many hundreds of thousands times in Rwanda 301 00:16:50.269 --> 00:16:51.570 did people see their families slaughtered 302 00:16:51.570 --> 00:16:52.403 right in front of their eyes? 303 00:16:52.403 --> 00:16:53.236 - [Kevin] Right, but I think that then 304 00:16:53.236 --> 00:16:55.696 the demand for details is increased 305 00:16:55.696 --> 00:16:58.100 because you've heard this story 10 other times. 306 00:16:58.100 --> 00:16:58.933 - Or that are born Kenyan. 307 00:16:58.933 --> 00:17:00.375 They all say the same thing. 308 00:17:00.375 --> 00:17:03.010 "In such-and-such a month of such-and-such a year, 309 00:17:03.010 --> 00:17:05.054 "they came to my home, they said I wasn't Mauritanian, 310 00:17:05.054 --> 00:17:06.099 "they took my documents. 311 00:17:06.099 --> 00:17:08.595 "They put me in a truck, they took me to a camp." 312 00:17:08.595 --> 00:17:09.428 Yadda yadda yadda. 313 00:17:09.428 --> 00:17:12.612 The same thing over and over and over again. 314 00:17:12.612 --> 00:17:13.739 Does that mean it didn't happen? 315 00:17:13.739 --> 00:17:15.619 No, because it could've happened the same way 316 00:17:15.619 --> 00:17:16.792 to thousands of different people. 317 00:17:16.792 --> 00:17:17.625 - Right. 318 00:17:17.625 --> 00:17:18.635 So what happens? 319 00:17:18.635 --> 00:17:20.093 Is it just hearing it over and over again? 320 00:17:20.093 --> 00:17:20.926 You just-- 321 00:17:20.926 --> 00:17:23.167 - No, you hear one thing that doesn't ring true 322 00:17:23.167 --> 00:17:24.225 and then you say, you know, 323 00:17:24.225 --> 00:17:26.246 then something clicks and he says, "I'm a farmer." 324 00:17:26.246 --> 00:17:27.534 Okay, what do you farm? 325 00:17:27.534 --> 00:17:28.625 "Well, I raise rice." 326 00:17:28.625 --> 00:17:29.763 How do you plant the rice? 327 00:17:29.763 --> 00:17:30.778 "I throw the seeds in the water." 328 00:17:30.778 --> 00:17:31.611 Uh oh. 329 00:17:31.611 --> 00:17:32.444 - [Kevin] But why wouldn't ask that 330 00:17:32.444 --> 00:17:34.174 probably on your first interview. 331 00:17:34.174 --> 00:17:36.774 It's not that you've got experience. 332 00:17:36.774 --> 00:17:37.607 You're jaded. 333 00:17:37.607 --> 00:17:39.243 - Yeah, the uncomfortable cold, I'm feeling jaded. 334 00:17:39.243 --> 00:17:40.076 You know, time to-- 335 00:17:40.076 --> 00:17:40.909 - [Kevin] What are you talking about? 336 00:17:40.909 --> 00:17:42.049 - Time to go back to inspections, you know? 337 00:17:42.049 --> 00:17:43.070 (employees laughing) 338 00:17:43.070 --> 00:17:45.105 - You're confusing. 339 00:17:45.105 --> 00:17:47.929 The (mumbles) around here used to call me the Grant King. 340 00:17:47.929 --> 00:17:48.894 You know, I believe in this. 341 00:17:48.894 --> 00:17:50.054 I believe in what I'm doing. 342 00:17:50.054 --> 00:17:52.456 I mean, I have a real commitment to this kind of work. 343 00:17:52.456 --> 00:17:55.917 And maybe at first I was more gullible, I was more naïve. 344 00:17:55.917 --> 00:17:57.309 I believed everybody, you know? 345 00:17:57.309 --> 00:17:59.376 I felt like I wasn't a detective. 346 00:17:59.376 --> 00:18:01.407 I'm just here, I'm gonna listen to the facts, 347 00:18:01.407 --> 00:18:03.567 and if the person makes out a claim, 348 00:18:03.567 --> 00:18:04.566 they're gonna get asylum. 349 00:18:04.566 --> 00:18:08.630 I mean, that's the way I dealt with this work. 350 00:18:08.630 --> 00:18:12.797 And now, after seeing so many people who come in and have, 351 00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:17.982 I mean, they have an identical story, 352 00:18:17.982 --> 00:18:19.840 and that's not to discount what they're telling me 353 00:18:19.840 --> 00:18:21.164 because there are a lot of people who have got 354 00:18:21.164 --> 00:18:22.382 this identical story. 355 00:18:22.382 --> 00:18:24.215 That doesn't mean it's not credible. 356 00:18:24.215 --> 00:18:26.965 (Kevin stammers) 357 00:18:31.569 --> 00:18:33.690 They're so identical, so boilerplate, 358 00:18:33.690 --> 00:18:36.802 there's not even anything unique about the claims. 359 00:18:36.802 --> 00:18:37.974 It makes you wonder. 360 00:18:37.974 --> 00:18:40.877 And then I've had cases that I've had to, 361 00:18:40.877 --> 00:18:43.001 I've granted some cases, 362 00:18:43.001 --> 00:18:44.942 and I've had to revoke the asylum 363 00:18:44.942 --> 00:18:47.792 because a file would come back 364 00:18:47.792 --> 00:18:49.638 with difference fingerprints in it. 365 00:18:49.638 --> 00:18:51.902 The person had two or three applications. 366 00:18:51.902 --> 00:18:54.142 They've had different names. 367 00:18:54.142 --> 00:18:56.174 And I felt like, "Jeez, man. 368 00:18:56.174 --> 00:18:58.738 "I'm pretty gullible." 369 00:18:58.738 --> 00:19:01.405 - This is not a moral situation. 370 00:19:03.034 --> 00:19:07.010 You know, if somebody's lying because they want to stay here 371 00:19:07.010 --> 00:19:10.824 that's perfectly understandable to me. 372 00:19:10.824 --> 00:19:13.124 I don't think that's a good or a bad issue. 373 00:19:13.124 --> 00:19:15.791 It's not like you trust somebody 374 00:19:17.169 --> 00:19:18.835 and they lie to you and betray you. 375 00:19:18.835 --> 00:19:21.668 It's not that sort of a situation. 376 00:19:22.857 --> 00:19:27.024 I mean, to me, somebody who's in this country illegally, 377 00:19:28.248 --> 00:19:30.594 it's like, if you park illegally. 378 00:19:30.594 --> 00:19:33.196 Yeah, it's against the law, 379 00:19:33.196 --> 00:19:34.349 but I don't think a person 380 00:19:34.349 --> 00:19:38.516 who parks in the wrong parking space is a bad person. 381 00:19:40.084 --> 00:19:43.370 If somebody is not telling me the truth, and I miss it, 382 00:19:43.370 --> 00:19:44.203 okay, I miss it. 383 00:19:44.203 --> 00:19:45.331 I'm sorry. 384 00:19:45.331 --> 00:19:47.108 No, it doesn't bother me. 385 00:19:47.108 --> 00:19:48.640 - [Man Walking] Hey, man. 386 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:49.807 How you doing? 387 00:19:51.333 --> 00:19:52.333 Aunquee Wee? 388 00:19:54.678 --> 00:19:58.020 - What's important is the person in front of me. 389 00:19:58.020 --> 00:20:01.187 And that I do my job as well as I can, 390 00:20:03.698 --> 00:20:05.301 never forgetting that the person in front of me 391 00:20:05.301 --> 00:20:06.718 is a human being. 392 00:20:12.220 --> 00:20:14.241 (somber music) 393 00:20:14.241 --> 00:20:16.241 - [Kevin] Altin Legonni? 394 00:20:20.602 --> 00:20:21.769 Altin Legonni? 395 00:20:28.520 --> 00:20:29.353 - [Voiceover] How you been? 396 00:20:29.353 --> 00:20:30.186 - [Voiceover] Good how are you? 397 00:20:30.186 --> 00:20:32.269 - [Voiceover] Good, good. 398 00:20:44.364 --> 00:20:46.930 - How many times were you abducted by the military? 399 00:20:46.930 --> 00:20:49.913 - [A.] It was three times. 400 00:20:49.913 --> 00:20:53.733 May 11th, June the 9th, and June the 12th 401 00:20:53.733 --> 00:20:55.566 of 1993, '94, and '96. 402 00:20:58.551 --> 00:20:59.384 - Okay. 403 00:20:59.384 --> 00:21:00.982 - [A.] That was just before I left, the last one. 404 00:21:00.982 --> 00:21:02.309 - Okay. 405 00:21:02.309 --> 00:21:03.642 The one in 1994. 406 00:21:06.203 --> 00:21:09.536 Just a minute, I've got a question here. 407 00:21:14.379 --> 00:21:16.339 During this period you said you were tortured. 408 00:21:16.339 --> 00:21:17.919 What do you mean by tortured? 409 00:21:17.919 --> 00:21:18.917 - [A.] You know-- 410 00:21:18.917 --> 00:21:20.821 - No, I wasn't there. 411 00:21:20.821 --> 00:21:22.249 (Martha-Louise laughs) 412 00:21:22.249 --> 00:21:23.328 - [A.] See, they get a rope-- 413 00:21:23.328 --> 00:21:24.536 - You have to tell me what they did to you, 414 00:21:24.536 --> 00:21:25.667 not to other people. 415 00:21:25.667 --> 00:21:27.328 - [A.] I know, that's what I'm telling. 416 00:21:27.328 --> 00:21:29.132 They have a rope hanging from the ceiling 417 00:21:29.132 --> 00:21:30.856 with a can of (mumbles). 418 00:21:30.856 --> 00:21:32.957 They would put, that is your two hands, 419 00:21:32.957 --> 00:21:35.430 behind and cross it, then drag you up. 420 00:21:35.430 --> 00:21:37.775 Your leg is not gonna touch the ground. 421 00:21:37.775 --> 00:21:41.130 So your whole weight bears on that, you know. 422 00:21:41.130 --> 00:21:42.710 It could but very, very painful. 423 00:21:42.710 --> 00:21:45.398 You know, then they start ask you questions, you know, 424 00:21:45.398 --> 00:21:47.640 trying to see if you can be cracked or broken. 425 00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:49.637 - And how long did they do that to you? 426 00:21:49.637 --> 00:21:52.074 - [A.] You know, they would that maybe for one hour, 427 00:21:52.074 --> 00:21:53.177 release you again, 428 00:21:53.177 --> 00:21:54.010 say, "Are you ready to talk--" 429 00:21:54.010 --> 00:21:55.924 - They would hold you up there without touching the ground 430 00:21:55.924 --> 00:21:56.757 for an hour? 431 00:21:56.757 --> 00:21:57.822 - [A.] That's right, without touching the ground, yeah. 432 00:21:57.822 --> 00:21:58.655 - Okay. 433 00:22:33.375 --> 00:22:36.125 - [Kevin] Anyone else in the van? 434 00:22:43.237 --> 00:22:45.988 - [Interpreter] Only me. 435 00:22:45.988 --> 00:22:48.238 - And you were in the back? 436 00:22:57.081 --> 00:22:59.831 - [Interpreter] It was the driver 437 00:23:01.232 --> 00:23:05.492 and there was seat for those two guys that was sat 438 00:23:05.492 --> 00:23:08.325 and me, that was was on the floor. 439 00:23:10.694 --> 00:23:14.861 - [Kevin] Did they do anything else other than talk to you? 440 00:23:30.655 --> 00:23:32.119 - [Interpreter] It was not the way that I speak now, 441 00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:33.813 the way they did that to me. 442 00:23:33.813 --> 00:23:35.191 - [Kevin] They must have stopped then. 443 00:23:35.191 --> 00:23:38.441 I mean, they must have stopped the van. 444 00:23:47.768 --> 00:23:48.601 - [Interpreter] During two hours 445 00:23:48.601 --> 00:23:49.648 that they make around (mumbles). 446 00:23:49.648 --> 00:23:52.815 - [Kevin] If one was driving the van-- 447 00:24:00.044 --> 00:24:02.877 - [Kevin] A driver and two others? 448 00:24:07.693 --> 00:24:08.715 - [Interpreter] Yeah, a driver that was in front 449 00:24:08.715 --> 00:24:11.154 and then two others in the back. 450 00:24:11.154 --> 00:24:12.117 - I thought originally you said there was just 451 00:24:12.117 --> 00:24:14.117 the two of them and you. 452 00:24:19.835 --> 00:24:22.145 - [Interpreter] The driver was in the front 453 00:24:22.145 --> 00:24:25.145 and two of them with me in the back. 454 00:24:26.847 --> 00:24:29.264 (soft music) 455 00:24:30.910 --> 00:24:32.361 - [Kevin] I knew during, right after the interview 456 00:24:32.361 --> 00:24:34.764 where I was going with that. 457 00:24:34.764 --> 00:24:37.365 That young guy, he was a doctor. 458 00:24:37.365 --> 00:24:41.532 Maybe I was skeptical just from reading the application. 459 00:24:43.988 --> 00:24:46.356 I guess I can tell you, I mean, right? 460 00:24:46.356 --> 00:24:47.687 - [Voiceover] Can we have a drum roll? 461 00:24:47.687 --> 00:24:51.559 - I referred him to the immigration judge. 462 00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:53.463 I found him not consistent. 463 00:24:53.463 --> 00:24:56.713 There were things in there that I just, 464 00:24:58.060 --> 00:24:59.535 I thought were inconsistencies. 465 00:24:59.535 --> 00:25:00.581 - [Voiceover] Was his testimony inconsistent 466 00:25:00.581 --> 00:25:01.436 or country conditions? 467 00:25:01.436 --> 00:25:02.934 - His testimony. 468 00:25:02.934 --> 00:25:05.651 There was a time when he said 469 00:25:05.651 --> 00:25:08.077 he was brought by two men into a van 470 00:25:08.077 --> 00:25:09.970 and drove around town for two hours, 471 00:25:09.970 --> 00:25:11.817 during which he was beaten. 472 00:25:11.817 --> 00:25:15.311 And then he, this is where the inconsistency was, 473 00:25:15.311 --> 00:25:17.427 he said, "No, no, no. 474 00:25:17.427 --> 00:25:19.949 "There was three of them. 475 00:25:19.949 --> 00:25:23.178 "One was driving and two were in the back with me." 476 00:25:23.178 --> 00:25:25.678 And so that was enough for me. 477 00:25:26.649 --> 00:25:29.482 But, you know, that inconsistency, 478 00:25:31.976 --> 00:25:34.809 again, if that was in another case 479 00:25:35.934 --> 00:25:39.968 maybe I wouldn't have really hung onto it. 480 00:25:39.968 --> 00:25:43.385 I may have kind of saw past it, you know? 481 00:25:45.168 --> 00:25:47.364 But for some reason in his case I didn't 482 00:25:47.364 --> 00:25:51.531 and that's because I found him not to be credible. 483 00:25:56.187 --> 00:25:58.423 - The military picked him up, 484 00:25:58.423 --> 00:26:00.467 still believed that he was a member 485 00:26:00.467 --> 00:26:02.273 of some small resistance organization. 486 00:26:02.273 --> 00:26:03.106 - [Martha-Louise] Mmm hmm. 487 00:26:03.106 --> 00:26:04.132 - And released him. 488 00:26:04.132 --> 00:26:04.965 - [Martha-Louise] Mmm hmm. 489 00:26:04.965 --> 00:26:06.268 - That's inconsistent 490 00:26:06.268 --> 00:26:08.011 with the government of Nigeria. 491 00:26:08.011 --> 00:26:08.844 That's one time. 492 00:26:08.844 --> 00:26:11.287 That happened three times. 493 00:26:11.287 --> 00:26:13.752 They released each time. 494 00:26:13.752 --> 00:26:15.680 He not only had a passport, 495 00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:16.626 which they didn't confiscate, 496 00:26:16.626 --> 00:26:17.928 which is another thing that they do with-- 497 00:26:17.928 --> 00:26:20.061 - [Martha-Louise] They couldn't get it. 498 00:26:20.061 --> 00:26:22.347 - [James] They don't allow dissidents to leave the country, 499 00:26:22.347 --> 00:26:24.305 especially the people that they suspect-- 500 00:26:24.305 --> 00:26:27.972 - No, I understand that, but I also, I mean. 501 00:26:30.243 --> 00:26:34.534 I believe what he said, that he got the parole officer to, 502 00:26:34.534 --> 00:26:35.568 not parole. 503 00:26:35.568 --> 00:26:36.401 - [James] Protocol. 504 00:26:36.401 --> 00:26:37.420 - Protocol officer. 505 00:26:37.420 --> 00:26:39.280 - [James] Which is a member of the government-- 506 00:26:39.280 --> 00:26:40.984 - Yeah but you can have members of the government 507 00:26:40.984 --> 00:26:42.121 who are friends of yours. 508 00:26:42.121 --> 00:26:44.343 You know, everything isn't black and white. 509 00:26:44.343 --> 00:26:46.553 I mean, I'm a member of the government. 510 00:26:46.553 --> 00:26:47.970 Of this government. 511 00:26:47.970 --> 00:26:48.864 - [James] But you don't protest 512 00:26:48.864 --> 00:26:50.384 against the government of the United States. 513 00:26:50.384 --> 00:26:52.171 - I would if I thought they were doing something wrong. 514 00:26:52.171 --> 00:26:53.399 - [James] But then you wouldn't work for the government. 515 00:26:53.399 --> 00:26:54.266 - How do you know? 516 00:26:54.266 --> 00:26:55.544 (James chuckles) 517 00:26:55.544 --> 00:26:56.986 - [James] Let me look through this some more. 518 00:26:56.986 --> 00:26:58.634 - I mean, I'm an American citizen 519 00:26:58.634 --> 00:27:00.932 and I don't like a lot of things the government does 520 00:27:00.932 --> 00:27:03.768 but I think my job is to protest and change it, 521 00:27:03.768 --> 00:27:06.207 not just either go with it, or you know, 522 00:27:06.207 --> 00:27:07.612 say it's one way or the other. 523 00:27:07.612 --> 00:27:08.445 - [James] Well that's fine 524 00:27:08.445 --> 00:27:10.933 but the fact that he had a passport, but the exit staff-- 525 00:27:10.933 --> 00:27:11.766 - Yes. 526 00:27:11.766 --> 00:27:12.599 - [James] And the B1 visa. 527 00:27:12.599 --> 00:27:14.160 - [Martha-Louise] What does the B1 visa have to do with it? 528 00:27:14.160 --> 00:27:15.652 He got the exit visa 529 00:27:15.652 --> 00:27:18.896 to go and deliver a paper in California. 530 00:27:18.896 --> 00:27:20.239 - Okay. 531 00:27:20.239 --> 00:27:21.784 - [Martha-Louise] Which he said he did do. 532 00:27:21.784 --> 00:27:22.767 - [James] But he did not. 533 00:27:22.767 --> 00:27:24.364 He went to New Jersey. 534 00:27:24.364 --> 00:27:25.666 - [Martha-Louise] Yes he did. 535 00:27:25.666 --> 00:27:27.761 No, he delivered the paper, then he came up here. 536 00:27:27.761 --> 00:27:30.800 - Do you have enough to show that he was in California? 537 00:27:30.800 --> 00:27:31.633 - [Martha-Louise] No, he just told me-- 538 00:27:31.633 --> 00:27:35.058 - This was the address that he went to in New Jersey. 539 00:27:35.058 --> 00:27:37.058 - [Martha-Louise] Right. 540 00:27:40.090 --> 00:27:41.942 - Why would he come to New Jersey 541 00:27:41.942 --> 00:27:43.961 if he was delivering a paper in California? 542 00:27:43.961 --> 00:27:45.035 - [Martha-Louise] In California? 543 00:27:45.035 --> 00:27:45.868 - Yes. 544 00:27:49.416 --> 00:27:50.249 - [Martha-Louise] I didn't think of that. 545 00:27:50.249 --> 00:27:53.503 Maybe I should have asked to see his flight to California. 546 00:27:53.503 --> 00:27:55.265 I mean, his tickets to California. 547 00:27:55.265 --> 00:27:57.765 But I didn't raise that issue. 548 00:28:00.097 --> 00:28:00.930 - Okay. 549 00:28:00.930 --> 00:28:01.847 Let me look at it a little more 550 00:28:01.847 --> 00:28:03.471 but I'm having a real problem with this. 551 00:28:03.471 --> 00:28:04.304 - Okay. 552 00:28:05.399 --> 00:28:08.412 I understand your questions and I'm not saying I don't agree 553 00:28:08.412 --> 00:28:11.147 that the questions make sense, 554 00:28:11.147 --> 00:28:14.230 it's just that I believe the answers. 555 00:28:15.437 --> 00:28:18.270 I think the answers are plausible. 556 00:28:20.227 --> 00:28:23.227 - [James] I don't think it happened. 557 00:28:25.309 --> 00:28:26.142 (soft music) 558 00:28:26.142 --> 00:28:28.565 - [Voiceover] No, I've got to 559 00:28:28.565 --> 00:28:32.331 pick something up (mumbles). 560 00:28:32.331 --> 00:28:34.479 - [Martha-Louise] The results of the decisions here 561 00:28:34.479 --> 00:28:37.335 are a little more serious than, you know, 562 00:28:37.335 --> 00:28:39.673 crossing the street, 563 00:28:39.673 --> 00:28:44.652 which I guess is partly why it's so incredibly stressful. 564 00:28:44.652 --> 00:28:46.896 With another supervisor who didn't see things 565 00:28:46.896 --> 00:28:49.793 the same way I did, who basically, my feeling was 566 00:28:49.793 --> 00:28:52.009 didn't believe practically anybody 567 00:28:52.009 --> 00:28:55.667 and his attitude was, "And I believe everybody." 568 00:28:55.667 --> 00:28:57.203 And he may be right, I don't know. 569 00:28:57.203 --> 00:28:59.833 But the point is if I could not understand 570 00:28:59.833 --> 00:29:04.000 why he thought this person should be denied asylum, 571 00:29:05.026 --> 00:29:06.193 I won't do it. 572 00:29:10.907 --> 00:29:14.824 (people speaking indistinctly) 573 00:29:16.288 --> 00:29:18.955 (phone ringing) 574 00:30:01.051 --> 00:30:04.655 - [Victoria] Officers don't get a lot of time. 575 00:30:04.655 --> 00:30:06.903 So tonight you review your summary 576 00:30:06.903 --> 00:30:10.581 and you review your application for asylum. 577 00:30:10.581 --> 00:30:11.770 Just so that you're comfortable 578 00:30:11.770 --> 00:30:14.235 when you go in for your interview 579 00:30:14.235 --> 00:30:17.377 and you don't get nervous about your facts. 580 00:30:17.377 --> 00:30:18.859 Because even though it's your story, 581 00:30:18.859 --> 00:30:21.776 sometimes under the circumstances-- 582 00:30:22.715 --> 00:30:24.516 - Yeah, I'm already nervous now. 583 00:30:24.516 --> 00:30:26.061 - You're already nervous and you're not even there yet, 584 00:30:26.061 --> 00:30:28.561 so that's why I'm telling you. 585 00:30:31.199 --> 00:30:32.680 I'm starting. 586 00:30:32.680 --> 00:30:34.442 Okay, I'm starting here. 587 00:30:34.442 --> 00:30:36.041 Anybody that's in the United States 588 00:30:36.041 --> 00:30:38.748 is going to perceive what happened to you, 589 00:30:38.748 --> 00:30:40.179 if you don't explain it, 590 00:30:40.179 --> 00:30:42.490 as to what would happen in the United States. 591 00:30:42.490 --> 00:30:43.601 So you go to jail. 592 00:30:43.601 --> 00:30:46.117 I mean, I worked before in the jails as an attorney. 593 00:30:46.117 --> 00:30:48.096 I mean, it's not that bad. 594 00:30:48.096 --> 00:30:50.204 I mean, it's not the nicest place in the world 595 00:30:50.204 --> 00:30:52.400 but we certainly don't have mice running around, 596 00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:55.619 back and forth that you can see, anyway. 597 00:30:55.619 --> 00:30:56.452 And rats. 598 00:30:57.782 --> 00:30:58.773 We don't have that. 599 00:30:58.773 --> 00:31:01.583 I mean, they get served little sandwiches, you know? 600 00:31:01.583 --> 00:31:02.416 (Victoria chuckles) 601 00:31:02.416 --> 00:31:04.191 They ask for toilet paper, they get toilet paper. 602 00:31:04.191 --> 00:31:08.223 I mean, it's not luxurious but it's very different. 603 00:31:08.223 --> 00:31:10.689 I mean, this place had no light, right? 604 00:31:10.689 --> 00:31:12.093 You didn't know whether it was day or night. 605 00:31:12.093 --> 00:31:12.990 You had no light. 606 00:31:12.990 --> 00:31:13.823 - [Gjergji] No. 607 00:31:13.823 --> 00:31:14.656 - Nobody fed you. 608 00:31:14.656 --> 00:31:15.489 They beat you up. 609 00:31:15.489 --> 00:31:17.423 You had no medical care. 610 00:31:17.423 --> 00:31:21.547 And, I mean, you have infected wounds from being beaten up. 611 00:31:21.547 --> 00:31:25.434 I mean, you have to just focus on that in the summary. 612 00:31:25.434 --> 00:31:26.851 - [Gjergji] Okay. 613 00:31:47.635 --> 00:31:51.135 - [Interpreter] This is a very sharp poem. 614 00:32:06.451 --> 00:32:10.554 - [Interpreter] They had started to feel he is against 615 00:32:10.554 --> 00:32:14.721 the communists and he had said become too liberal. 616 00:32:15.930 --> 00:32:17.002 - [Attorney] What did they tell him? 617 00:32:17.002 --> 00:32:18.335 To stop writing? 618 00:32:42.379 --> 00:32:45.129 (Huang chuckles) 619 00:32:49.880 --> 00:32:54.047 (people speaking indistinctly) (soft music) 620 00:32:57.706 --> 00:32:59.137 - I don't know where my copy is. 621 00:32:59.137 --> 00:33:00.631 You have-- 622 00:33:00.631 --> 00:33:02.205 - I don't think I do. 623 00:33:02.205 --> 00:33:03.700 - You don't have it? 624 00:33:03.700 --> 00:33:04.533 Well they-- 625 00:33:04.533 --> 00:33:05.850 - I gave to you the original, didn't I? 626 00:33:05.850 --> 00:33:06.683 No? 627 00:33:08.092 --> 00:33:10.162 - Oh here it is. 628 00:33:10.162 --> 00:33:10.995 Yeah, here it is. 629 00:33:10.995 --> 00:33:11.828 I'm sorry. 630 00:33:11.828 --> 00:33:12.661 - Okay. 631 00:33:12.661 --> 00:33:13.494 - This is it, right? 632 00:33:13.494 --> 00:33:14.327 - Oh yeah, I do have it? 633 00:33:14.327 --> 00:33:15.580 - You have the original, I don't have the original. 634 00:33:15.580 --> 00:33:18.211 - Yeah, I have the original. 635 00:33:18.211 --> 00:33:21.211 - [Voiceover] Where's the applicant? 636 00:33:22.833 --> 00:33:23.958 At where? 637 00:33:23.958 --> 00:33:25.541 We need to see him. 638 00:33:27.612 --> 00:33:30.112 (lock buzzes) 639 00:33:31.634 --> 00:33:33.128 - Got it? 640 00:33:33.128 --> 00:33:33.961 Got it? 641 00:33:40.817 --> 00:33:43.384 - [Agent] Okay, so what happened to your friend, okay? 642 00:33:43.384 --> 00:33:47.547 - Oh, he was, we were both in a pretty bad shape, 643 00:33:47.547 --> 00:33:50.331 but his wounds got infected in his arm 644 00:33:50.331 --> 00:33:54.672 and he was feeling that they were pretty deep. 645 00:33:54.672 --> 00:33:57.005 He was seriously, seriously. 646 00:34:00.962 --> 00:34:02.795 I thought he would die 647 00:34:03.990 --> 00:34:08.227 if we would have been retained for more than that, 648 00:34:08.227 --> 00:34:09.199 for five years, five days. 649 00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:10.698 - [Agent] Did you get a medical treatment in? 650 00:34:10.698 --> 00:34:11.963 - No, not at all. 651 00:34:11.963 --> 00:34:13.636 We didn't even get food. 652 00:34:13.636 --> 00:34:15.707 - [Agent] Either one of you, you or your friend? 653 00:34:15.707 --> 00:34:17.252 - No. 654 00:34:17.252 --> 00:34:18.187 - [Agent] Okay. 655 00:34:18.187 --> 00:34:21.864 - [Gjergji] We didn't have any food during these days. 656 00:34:21.864 --> 00:34:24.853 - [Agent] Okay, did they give you water to drink? 657 00:34:24.853 --> 00:34:27.438 - Yeah, well there was a toilet over there. 658 00:34:27.438 --> 00:34:28.396 (Gjergji chuckles) 659 00:34:28.396 --> 00:34:30.663 They didn't serve us the water but-- 660 00:34:30.663 --> 00:34:33.002 - [Agent] So, you know, you just took water. 661 00:34:33.002 --> 00:34:37.167 - We just made ourselves comfortable, yeah, you know. 662 00:34:37.167 --> 00:34:38.000 Oh well. 663 00:34:40.052 --> 00:34:43.885 (child speaking indistinctly) 664 00:34:44.982 --> 00:34:46.796 I was embarrassed as hell. 665 00:34:46.796 --> 00:34:47.934 - [Victoria] You were embarrassed? 666 00:34:47.934 --> 00:34:48.767 - [Voiceover] Why? 667 00:34:48.767 --> 00:34:50.146 - [Victoria] Well yeah, okay. 668 00:34:50.146 --> 00:34:52.061 - I was, I was. 669 00:34:52.061 --> 00:34:53.734 - [Victoria] Talking about the incident, you mean. 670 00:34:53.734 --> 00:34:54.567 - Yeah I-- 671 00:34:54.567 --> 00:34:55.433 - [Victoria] Yeah I could see 672 00:34:55.433 --> 00:34:56.676 that it was starting to bother you. 673 00:34:56.676 --> 00:34:58.369 - I had to raise it all from my mind. 674 00:34:58.369 --> 00:35:01.552 NowI have to remember all what happened. 675 00:35:01.552 --> 00:35:03.736 - I mean, you didn't even tell me about the water. 676 00:35:03.736 --> 00:35:05.128 - [Gjergji] I just don't want to talk about it anymore. 677 00:35:05.128 --> 00:35:06.331 - Yeah, you didn't even tell me 678 00:35:06.331 --> 00:35:08.515 about that's where you got your water. 679 00:35:08.515 --> 00:35:09.348 - [Gjergji] Well. 680 00:35:09.348 --> 00:35:11.862 - I mean, like who wants to say that after five days 681 00:35:11.862 --> 00:35:12.822 they drank of a toilet. 682 00:35:12.822 --> 00:35:15.592 I mean, it's not the easiest thing to discuss, right? 683 00:35:15.592 --> 00:35:16.425 - Yeah. 684 00:35:17.495 --> 00:35:18.479 - And that happens a lot. 685 00:35:18.479 --> 00:35:20.089 Like, people don't mention certain things 686 00:35:20.089 --> 00:35:23.089 that they're very embarrassed about. 687 00:35:24.136 --> 00:35:26.235 But I think you did well. 688 00:35:26.235 --> 00:35:28.934 I mean, you covered everything. 689 00:35:28.934 --> 00:35:31.267 You know, as best you could. 690 00:35:34.369 --> 00:35:35.202 - [Man With Leather Jacket] Charles? 691 00:35:35.202 --> 00:35:36.332 This big thing here? 692 00:35:36.332 --> 00:35:37.165 - [Man With Bowtie] Is this his? 693 00:35:37.165 --> 00:35:38.547 - Yeah. 694 00:35:38.547 --> 00:35:40.257 It's a family of-- 695 00:35:40.257 --> 00:35:41.134 - [Man With Bowtie] Two? 696 00:35:41.134 --> 00:35:41.967 - Yeah. 697 00:35:41.967 --> 00:35:44.369 - [Man With Bowtie] Is she a part of the case, do you know? 698 00:35:44.369 --> 00:35:46.382 - [Man With Leather Jacket] Yeah, (mumbles) part of it. 699 00:35:46.382 --> 00:35:47.382 - All right. 700 00:35:48.876 --> 00:35:51.435 Okay, I'm going to need David and. 701 00:35:51.435 --> 00:35:54.102 (Gerald groans) 702 00:36:20.434 --> 00:36:23.905 I've read what he says in the application form itself 703 00:36:23.905 --> 00:36:25.519 so I have an idea. 704 00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:29.186 Now I'm going to skim the 30-page affidavit. 705 00:36:33.130 --> 00:36:34.932 But to answer your question, 706 00:36:34.932 --> 00:36:37.182 you look at the I-589 first 707 00:36:38.176 --> 00:36:42.343 and then you delve into the other stuff as is your wont. 708 00:36:49.111 --> 00:36:51.730 Then I call my wife and ask her what to do. 709 00:36:51.730 --> 00:36:55.897 She tells me on the phone without having seen the case. 710 00:36:56.736 --> 00:36:57.751 - [Voiceover] How do you like 711 00:36:57.751 --> 00:37:00.418 getting this much documentation? 712 00:37:03.546 --> 00:37:04.546 - I like it, 713 00:37:07.952 --> 00:37:09.460 for a number of reasons. 714 00:37:09.460 --> 00:37:11.837 Some of them good and some of them not so good. 715 00:37:11.837 --> 00:37:15.882 Usually if there's this much documentation 716 00:37:15.882 --> 00:37:17.882 it means that one of the 717 00:37:21.399 --> 00:37:24.232 NGOs that knows what they're doing 718 00:37:25.112 --> 00:37:28.996 has taken the case and has put a lot of research into it, 719 00:37:28.996 --> 00:37:32.441 and they don't take cases which are not good cases. 720 00:37:32.441 --> 00:37:34.630 So you know it's a substantive case 721 00:37:34.630 --> 00:37:36.353 if you've got this much paper. 722 00:37:36.353 --> 00:37:40.424 But yeah, I mean when I see paper like this, 723 00:37:40.424 --> 00:37:43.022 you have two reactions. 724 00:37:43.022 --> 00:37:45.351 I smile internally 725 00:37:45.351 --> 00:37:48.138 but to my colleagues you've got to act like, "Oh my God. 726 00:37:48.138 --> 00:37:49.809 "Look at that," you know. 727 00:37:49.809 --> 00:37:52.494 'Cause everybody has to put on a show. 728 00:37:52.494 --> 00:37:53.681 - [Voiceover] Now one of your colleagues 729 00:37:53.681 --> 00:37:56.324 said that he worries when he gets a big pile of paper 730 00:37:56.324 --> 00:37:59.154 that it's when they can't impress you with brilliance 731 00:37:59.154 --> 00:38:00.742 they dazzle you with bullshit, 732 00:38:00.742 --> 00:38:03.640 and that's what a pile of paper is. 733 00:38:03.640 --> 00:38:07.044 - Well, it depends on the pile. 734 00:38:07.044 --> 00:38:11.492 A pile of paper this big is not, in my experience, 735 00:38:11.492 --> 00:38:13.575 has never been frivolous. 736 00:38:14.455 --> 00:38:16.710 Now if it's a pile of paper that big, 737 00:38:16.710 --> 00:38:19.261 it could very well be. 738 00:38:19.261 --> 00:38:22.172 After you get over this much 739 00:38:22.172 --> 00:38:24.655 I've never known it to be frivolous. 740 00:38:24.655 --> 00:38:26.097 This is not frivolous. 741 00:38:26.097 --> 00:38:27.339 It can't be. 742 00:38:27.339 --> 00:38:29.339 - [Voiceover] Yes, yeah. 743 00:43:55.163 --> 00:43:58.080 - Wow, my reaction is I am humbled. 744 00:44:00.590 --> 00:44:01.590 What a life. 745 00:44:06.363 --> 00:44:07.566 - [Voiceover] You seem shocked. 746 00:44:07.566 --> 00:44:08.399 What was particularly-- 747 00:44:08.399 --> 00:44:10.830 - Oh it's just when you read something like that 748 00:44:10.830 --> 00:44:12.580 you just remember how 749 00:44:14.613 --> 00:44:16.599 weighty our job is here. 750 00:44:16.599 --> 00:44:18.720 I mean, have you read that file? 751 00:44:18.720 --> 00:44:19.672 Yeah. 752 00:44:19.672 --> 00:44:22.339 It's pretty impressive, I think. 753 00:44:25.813 --> 00:44:27.786 I've done this for a couple of years now 754 00:44:27.786 --> 00:44:30.749 and you come to work and things are on your mind, 755 00:44:30.749 --> 00:44:32.757 or you know, "Hope I get easy cases." 756 00:44:32.757 --> 00:44:34.915 You know, all this stuff, 757 00:44:34.915 --> 00:44:38.338 and then you read somebody's file like that 758 00:44:38.338 --> 00:44:42.335 and you remember just really how important 759 00:44:42.335 --> 00:44:43.907 what we do is. 760 00:44:43.907 --> 00:44:46.393 (people speaking indistinctly) 761 00:44:46.393 --> 00:44:50.560 (Huang speaking foreign language) 762 00:44:54.420 --> 00:44:58.557 - [Gerald] My job, I think, is to establish as best I can 763 00:44:58.557 --> 00:45:00.801 that the man is who he says he is 764 00:45:00.801 --> 00:45:02.218 and if I do that, 765 00:45:03.151 --> 00:45:05.718 if I satisfy myself that he is who he says he is, 766 00:45:05.718 --> 00:45:08.051 then I think he gets asylum. 767 00:45:11.158 --> 00:45:12.158 Zhang Huang? 768 00:45:15.844 --> 00:45:16.927 Huang, Huang? 769 00:45:22.193 --> 00:45:23.235 - [Voiceover] Is this for you? 770 00:45:23.235 --> 00:45:24.068 - [Voiceover] Yes. 771 00:45:24.068 --> 00:45:26.044 - [Voiceover] Do you have an interpreter or a lawyer? 772 00:45:26.044 --> 00:45:27.743 - [Voiceover] No, I have (mumbles). 773 00:45:27.743 --> 00:45:28.688 - [Voiceover] You have what? 774 00:45:28.688 --> 00:45:31.000 - [Voiceover] I have an interpreter. 775 00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:32.162 - [Voiceover] Where is he? 776 00:45:32.162 --> 00:45:33.796 - [Voiceover] Just outside smoking. 777 00:45:33.796 --> 00:45:35.086 - [Voiceover] Okay, you need to hold onto this 778 00:45:35.086 --> 00:45:37.736 until everyone is here. 779 00:45:37.736 --> 00:45:41.903 - [Gerald] Sir, can I ask you to raise your right hand? 780 00:45:45.011 --> 00:45:48.678 - [Gerald] Do you promise to tell the truth? 781 00:45:53.621 --> 00:45:54.454 - Yes. 782 00:45:54.454 --> 00:45:55.620 - [Gerald] Thank you, all right. 783 00:45:55.620 --> 00:45:58.104 Did you ever know the name of the person 784 00:45:58.104 --> 00:46:01.854 who told your grandpa of your father's death? 785 00:46:33.987 --> 00:46:37.947 - He said that he didn't know the particular name. 786 00:46:37.947 --> 00:46:40.056 - [Gerald] Okay. 787 00:46:40.056 --> 00:46:42.584 Sir, why didn't you stay in the United States 788 00:46:42.584 --> 00:46:44.834 when you were here in 1993? 789 00:47:30.404 --> 00:47:34.571 (people speaking indistinctly) (soft music) 790 00:48:00.245 --> 00:48:02.632 - [Woman In Green] I don't know how you say this. 791 00:48:02.632 --> 00:48:04.243 Gjergji Albakhumani. 792 00:48:04.243 --> 00:48:06.410 Window number six, please. 793 00:48:10.516 --> 00:48:11.372 Hi, sir. 794 00:48:11.372 --> 00:48:12.585 So you can understand English? 795 00:48:12.585 --> 00:48:13.441 - Yes. 796 00:48:13.441 --> 00:48:14.360 - Okay. 797 00:48:14.360 --> 00:48:16.059 I have good news for you. 798 00:48:16.059 --> 00:48:19.073 You've been recommended to be approved for asylum, 799 00:48:19.073 --> 00:48:21.823 meaning your interview went well. 800 00:48:28.451 --> 00:48:29.995 Okay. 801 00:48:29.995 --> 00:48:32.384 You will receive this copy of this letter 802 00:48:32.384 --> 00:48:34.550 (mumbles) recommend approval. 803 00:48:34.550 --> 00:48:36.186 Okay, right now I need you to sign a copy 804 00:48:36.186 --> 00:48:37.019 that's in the file. 805 00:48:37.019 --> 00:48:38.436 - [Gjergji] Okay. 806 00:48:40.990 --> 00:48:41.823 - [Voiceover] Congratulations. 807 00:48:41.823 --> 00:48:42.656 - Thanks! 808 00:48:44.617 --> 00:48:47.580 - [Woman In Green] Okay, sir. 809 00:48:47.580 --> 00:48:48.413 - Huang. 810 00:48:48.413 --> 00:48:49.690 H-U-A-N-G. 811 00:48:49.690 --> 00:48:51.273 Window two, please. 812 00:48:53.048 --> 00:48:53.881 - [Voiceover] Can you let her know 813 00:48:53.881 --> 00:48:56.834 that no decision was made on her case, 814 00:48:56.834 --> 00:49:01.350 so her case is still pending with the Service. 815 00:49:01.350 --> 00:49:03.696 But she has been referred to immigration judge 816 00:49:03.696 --> 00:49:05.863 for further consideration. 817 00:49:08.877 --> 00:49:11.062 Okay, the judge will also make the final determination 818 00:49:11.062 --> 00:49:11.895 on her application. 819 00:49:11.895 --> 00:49:12.853 - [Woman In Plaid] Hello! 820 00:49:12.853 --> 00:49:13.686 - Hello! 821 00:49:13.686 --> 00:49:14.519 - [Woman In Plaid] Okay, hi. 822 00:49:14.519 --> 00:49:15.928 Hi, good afternoon. 823 00:49:15.928 --> 00:49:17.680 Who's the principal applicant? 824 00:49:17.680 --> 00:49:18.638 - [Interpreter] This one. 825 00:49:18.638 --> 00:49:19.471 - [Woman In Plaid] Do you have ID, sir? 826 00:49:19.471 --> 00:49:20.388 ID, please? 827 00:49:23.029 --> 00:49:25.446 (soft music) 828 00:49:26.781 --> 00:49:27.614 Thank you. 829 00:49:30.961 --> 00:49:31.794 Here you go, sir. 830 00:49:31.794 --> 00:49:32.627 Thank you. 831 00:49:32.627 --> 00:49:34.017 - Thank you. 832 00:49:34.017 --> 00:49:35.204 - [Woman In Plaid] The Service is recommending 833 00:49:35.204 --> 00:49:38.449 that the case be approved, so congratulations to you. 834 00:49:38.449 --> 00:49:41.047 (speaking foreign language) 835 00:49:41.047 --> 00:49:41.880 - Thank you, thank you! 836 00:49:41.880 --> 00:49:44.713 - [Woman In Plaid] You're welcome! 837 00:50:59.952 --> 00:51:01.119 - Gladys Cruz? 838 00:51:05.238 --> 00:51:06.821 Gladys Tomasa Cruz? 839 00:51:17.347 --> 00:51:18.930 Gladys Tomasa Cruz? 840 00:51:31.710 --> 00:51:32.673 How are you doing today? 841 00:51:32.673 --> 00:51:33.632 - Hi, I'm the interpreter. 842 00:51:33.632 --> 00:51:34.799 - [Todd] Okay. 843 00:51:37.496 --> 00:51:39.496 Okay, follow me, please. 844 00:51:51.497 --> 00:51:55.164 (speaking foreign language) 845 00:52:12.133 --> 00:52:14.633 - They took my brother's wife. 846 00:52:23.207 --> 00:52:25.463 - [Interpreter] They took to a river, 847 00:52:25.463 --> 00:52:26.641 which name is Salguate. 848 00:52:26.641 --> 00:52:28.891 Close to that neighborhood. 849 00:52:37.709 --> 00:52:41.819 - We think that because they want more information. 850 00:52:41.819 --> 00:52:44.486 (Gladys crying) 851 00:52:47.591 --> 00:52:50.508 - [Todd] Okay, just take your time. 852 00:53:02.436 --> 00:53:03.304 - [Todd] That's okay, that's all right. 853 00:53:03.304 --> 00:53:04.812 Just take your time. 854 00:53:04.812 --> 00:53:06.241 - Do you have a Kleenex? 855 00:53:06.241 --> 00:53:07.991 - [Todd] No, I'm out. 856 00:53:15.080 --> 00:53:17.057 Here, I have some napkins if you need. 857 00:53:17.057 --> 00:53:18.057 - Thank you. 858 00:53:32.954 --> 00:53:35.787 - [Interpreter] They put her down. 859 00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:44.487 - [Interpreter] They gave her six shots in the back. 860 00:54:02.707 --> 00:54:03.623 - [Interpreter] When he escaped from that group, 861 00:54:03.623 --> 00:54:06.956 he went back to the cartel, the brother. 862 00:54:13.722 --> 00:54:16.139 (soft music) 863 00:54:32.971 --> 00:54:35.471 (door closes) 864 00:54:38.389 --> 00:54:40.660 - The guy was living in the United States for 27 years. 865 00:54:40.660 --> 00:54:43.571 Decides he's going to take a little trip over the border? 866 00:54:43.571 --> 00:54:44.435 (imitates buzzer) 867 00:54:44.435 --> 00:54:46.204 27 are gone! 868 00:54:46.204 --> 00:54:47.588 I mean, everything's here. 869 00:54:47.588 --> 00:54:50.039 His family's here, everything's here. 870 00:54:50.039 --> 00:54:51.143 Except for his little criminal problem, 871 00:54:51.143 --> 00:54:52.564 which means that he probably knew about it 872 00:54:52.564 --> 00:54:53.556 and that's why he didn't apply for, 873 00:54:53.556 --> 00:54:54.754 you know, a further benefit. 874 00:54:54.754 --> 00:54:57.513 He didn't have permanent residency. 875 00:54:57.513 --> 00:54:58.393 He was illegal. 876 00:54:58.393 --> 00:55:00.023 He could have gotten the Cuban Adjustment Act. 877 00:55:00.023 --> 00:55:01.766 He could have gotten all kinds of stuff. 878 00:55:01.766 --> 00:55:05.701 I will probably send somebody up there. 879 00:55:05.701 --> 00:55:06.957 - [Todd] So (mumbles) case? 880 00:55:06.957 --> 00:55:08.959 - Okay, it's a Salvadoran thing. 881 00:55:08.959 --> 00:55:09.792 - [Larry] No case. 882 00:55:09.792 --> 00:55:11.867 - 17 years military, sister's face ripped off. 883 00:55:11.867 --> 00:55:12.857 Et cetera, et cetera. 884 00:55:12.857 --> 00:55:13.791 Returns to town. 885 00:55:13.791 --> 00:55:15.310 '89, they come to the United States. 886 00:55:15.310 --> 00:55:17.080 He's still in the military til '93. 887 00:55:17.080 --> 00:55:18.742 - [Larry] Yep, now here's the thing. 888 00:55:18.742 --> 00:55:23.619 In '93, her nephew gets beat to death by four people. 889 00:55:23.619 --> 00:55:24.452 - Okay. 890 00:55:24.452 --> 00:55:25.792 - [Larry] Four men, okay? 891 00:55:25.792 --> 00:55:27.959 So she's afraid to go back 892 00:55:29.080 --> 00:55:30.682 because she thinks they're still being targeted. 893 00:55:30.682 --> 00:55:31.978 - Now the nephew is beaten. 894 00:55:31.978 --> 00:55:32.811 - [Todd] Yeah. 895 00:55:32.811 --> 00:55:34.322 - They don't know who the four men are when he was beaten. 896 00:55:34.322 --> 00:55:35.800 - [Todd] They don't know who the four men are. 897 00:55:35.800 --> 00:55:36.633 - Okay. 898 00:55:36.633 --> 00:55:39.537 The brother-in-law who was a taxi cab was shot in the back. 899 00:55:39.537 --> 00:55:40.707 They don't know who shot him in the back. 900 00:55:40.707 --> 00:55:41.780 - [Todd] They don't know who shot him in the back. 901 00:55:41.780 --> 00:55:46.295 - The woman, the sister-in-law was murdered by the river, 902 00:55:46.295 --> 00:55:47.128 face ripped off, whatever. 903 00:55:47.128 --> 00:55:48.412 They don't know who killed her, either. 904 00:55:48.412 --> 00:55:49.245 - [Todd] No. 905 00:55:49.245 --> 00:55:51.199 - They're saying they think it my be the Guerrillas. 906 00:55:51.199 --> 00:55:53.469 - [Todd] I think she did give us enough 907 00:55:53.469 --> 00:55:55.991 with the events of '83. 908 00:55:55.991 --> 00:55:57.157 - [Wally] What do those events pertain to? 909 00:55:57.157 --> 00:55:58.495 - [Larry] That's the sister-in-law. 910 00:55:58.495 --> 00:56:02.267 - The fact that, like, a day or two after the brothers 911 00:56:02.267 --> 00:56:04.781 were confronted by the rebels and they escaped 912 00:56:04.781 --> 00:56:06.746 and the rebels had their papers and stuff, 913 00:56:06.746 --> 00:56:10.395 that the wife of one of the two men 914 00:56:10.395 --> 00:56:14.018 was abducted, tortured, and killed 915 00:56:14.018 --> 00:56:16.442 and that neighbors told them 916 00:56:16.442 --> 00:56:19.047 that there were strangers during the wake, 917 00:56:19.047 --> 00:56:21.639 there were strangers asking who the family members were 918 00:56:21.639 --> 00:56:23.240 and who they were and where they were, et cetera. 919 00:56:23.240 --> 00:56:24.536 - [Wally] Okay, all right. 920 00:56:24.536 --> 00:56:26.766 - You have possible threats. 921 00:56:26.766 --> 00:56:27.599 - That's a little bit more. 922 00:56:27.599 --> 00:56:29.385 - [Todd] Similarly situated, et cetera. 923 00:56:29.385 --> 00:56:31.670 - That speculation may be based on something more than, 924 00:56:31.670 --> 00:56:33.230 it's not maybe mere speculation. 925 00:56:33.230 --> 00:56:35.264 It may be a logical conclusion. 926 00:56:35.264 --> 00:56:36.950 However, it also occurred in '83. 927 00:56:36.950 --> 00:56:37.783 She left in '89. 928 00:56:37.783 --> 00:56:38.616 - [Todd] No, no, no. 929 00:56:38.616 --> 00:56:40.934 But that could be evidence of past persecution 930 00:56:40.934 --> 00:56:41.767 is what I'm saying. (phone rings) 931 00:56:41.767 --> 00:56:43.498 - Not of her, not of her. 932 00:56:43.498 --> 00:56:44.668 - [Todd] If they're asking about family members 933 00:56:44.668 --> 00:56:46.494 and this was a similarly situated person? 934 00:56:46.494 --> 00:56:47.944 - No, it doesn't rise to the level of past persecution. 935 00:56:47.944 --> 00:56:49.840 She has to know she was threatened 936 00:56:49.840 --> 00:56:51.721 and specify what those threats are. 937 00:56:51.721 --> 00:56:52.946 - [Todd] Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. 938 00:56:52.946 --> 00:56:54.186 - There's a whole line of cases, 939 00:56:54.186 --> 00:56:59.059 and they're mostly Salvadoran cases in that Ninth Circuit, 940 00:56:59.059 --> 00:57:02.642 like when a threat constitutes persecution. 941 00:57:04.346 --> 00:57:07.272 And this one just wouldn't even come close. 942 00:57:07.272 --> 00:57:10.474 - At the same time, too, we have one victim, okay? 943 00:57:10.474 --> 00:57:12.686 If they had stayed there, 944 00:57:12.686 --> 00:57:15.597 if we had waited for another victim, 945 00:57:15.597 --> 00:57:17.688 how do we know that it wouldn't have been 946 00:57:17.688 --> 00:57:19.861 one of the brothers or sisters? 947 00:57:19.861 --> 00:57:22.201 - Nobody ever threatened her. 948 00:57:22.201 --> 00:57:23.970 I mean, really for the threat to rise 949 00:57:23.970 --> 00:57:25.826 to the level of persecution, 950 00:57:25.826 --> 00:57:27.301 there'd have to have been somebody that actually 951 00:57:27.301 --> 00:57:28.134 made a threat. 952 00:57:28.134 --> 00:57:32.472 It could be an anonymous threat, even, but a threat. 953 00:57:32.472 --> 00:57:37.390 But the fact that another member of her family suffered harm 954 00:57:37.390 --> 00:57:38.589 and then the army said, 955 00:57:38.589 --> 00:57:39.863 "Well their might be something going on here," 956 00:57:39.863 --> 00:57:44.001 and packed them off, that's not persecution. 957 00:57:44.001 --> 00:57:44.834 I mean, you know-- 958 00:57:44.834 --> 00:57:45.667 - Wow. 959 00:57:45.667 --> 00:57:47.650 You know, it seems to me that that's pretty harsh. 960 00:57:47.650 --> 00:57:51.177 I mean, that you have to have an actual affirmative threat, 961 00:57:51.177 --> 00:57:55.344 that you can't take the whole circumstances of what occurred 962 00:57:57.971 --> 00:57:59.191 and feel threatened. 963 00:57:59.191 --> 00:58:00.024 - [Wally] You're missing the point. 964 00:58:00.024 --> 00:58:00.857 I mean, you're making a distinction here 965 00:58:00.857 --> 00:58:02.146 between when it becomes persecution 966 00:58:02.146 --> 00:58:02.979 and when there's a well-founded fear. 967 00:58:02.979 --> 00:58:03.812 - Right. 968 00:58:03.812 --> 00:58:04.645 - [Larry] I'm not saying in 1983 969 00:58:04.645 --> 00:58:07.822 she didn't have a well-founded fear, possibly. 970 00:58:07.822 --> 00:58:08.655 - Oh okay, okay, okay. 971 00:58:08.655 --> 00:58:10.204 - But she didn't suffer persecution. 972 00:58:10.204 --> 00:58:12.214 Because there was no threat! 973 00:58:12.214 --> 00:58:13.050 - [Todd] Okay, okay, okay, okay. 974 00:58:13.050 --> 00:58:14.110 I was see what your point is. 975 00:58:14.110 --> 00:58:17.536 I was determining that she had a well-founded fear in '83. 976 00:58:17.536 --> 00:58:20.364 - I'm not going to gangsay that. 977 00:58:20.364 --> 00:58:22.523 She may have had a well-founded fear in 1983 978 00:58:22.523 --> 00:58:25.575 but what does she have now, 14 years later? 979 00:58:25.575 --> 00:58:27.815 - [Todd] Well now it's a whole different story. 980 00:58:27.815 --> 00:58:30.398 (somber music) 981 00:59:04.376 --> 00:59:07.709 (security wand beeping) 982 00:59:11.987 --> 00:59:15.494 (people speaking indistinctly) 983 00:59:15.494 --> 00:59:19.979 - Sometimes you get a case where the person has pictures 984 00:59:19.979 --> 00:59:21.229 of dead bodies, 985 00:59:22.417 --> 00:59:24.913 and that's of course the last thing you want to look at. 986 00:59:24.913 --> 00:59:27.941 And they just give them to you and I'm like. 987 00:59:27.941 --> 00:59:29.651 But I have to look at them. 988 00:59:29.651 --> 00:59:32.096 So I look at them and then you're just horrified 989 00:59:32.096 --> 00:59:34.975 as to what goes on in some of these countries. 990 00:59:34.975 --> 00:59:38.128 And sometimes you get some of these sweet little old ladies 991 00:59:38.128 --> 00:59:40.155 who are like from Russia or some of those countries 992 00:59:40.155 --> 00:59:41.228 and they're just little old ladies 993 00:59:41.228 --> 00:59:43.309 and they tell you stories about people beating them up 994 00:59:43.309 --> 00:59:44.784 because they're Jewish. 995 00:59:44.784 --> 00:59:46.126 No other reason. 996 00:59:46.126 --> 00:59:48.198 And you're like, "How could someone beat on her?" 997 00:59:48.198 --> 00:59:50.733 She's 70 years old, she's 60 years old. 998 00:59:50.733 --> 00:59:51.794 That could be your grandmother. 999 00:59:51.794 --> 00:59:53.183 How are you beating on her in the street 1000 00:59:53.183 --> 00:59:54.302 because she's Jewish? 1001 00:59:54.302 --> 00:59:56.070 And she's sitting here and she's crying 1002 00:59:56.070 --> 00:59:57.532 and she can't stop crying 1003 00:59:57.532 --> 00:59:59.276 and we're not permitted to cry. 1004 00:59:59.276 --> 01:00:00.459 We can't cry during interviews. 1005 01:00:00.459 --> 01:00:01.604 It's not a good thing. 1006 01:00:01.604 --> 01:00:02.677 And you can't, you know, 1007 01:00:02.677 --> 01:00:04.018 you want to sometimes give 'em a hug 1008 01:00:04.018 --> 01:00:04.884 but you can't! 1009 01:00:04.884 --> 01:00:06.188 You can't do it. 1010 01:00:06.188 --> 01:00:07.021 So you have to-- 1011 01:00:07.021 --> 01:00:07.854 - [Kevin] I bet that's why you keep your tissues 1012 01:00:07.854 --> 01:00:09.312 right there, right? (Charlene laughs) 1013 01:00:09.312 --> 01:00:10.772 - Yes, you have to have a tissue! 1014 01:00:10.772 --> 01:00:13.605 - The hardest thing about this job 1015 01:00:14.502 --> 01:00:17.056 is the things you can never say. 1016 01:00:17.056 --> 01:00:19.385 I still believe that. 1017 01:00:19.385 --> 01:00:21.639 The things I can't even explain 1018 01:00:21.639 --> 01:00:25.056 because it's in my unconscious, you know. 1019 01:00:29.233 --> 01:00:32.915 How come I have the position I have, you know? 1020 01:00:32.915 --> 01:00:33.805 And I think that, you know, 1021 01:00:33.805 --> 01:00:36.157 about well we see a lot of fraudulent cases. 1022 01:00:36.157 --> 01:00:37.876 There's a lot of credibility issues. 1023 01:00:37.876 --> 01:00:39.744 And I think that there could be, 1024 01:00:39.744 --> 01:00:43.655 I repress a lot of the pain that I see in people's lives. 1025 01:00:43.655 --> 01:00:45.252 I go home and I don't even, I mean, 1026 01:00:45.252 --> 01:00:46.553 I try not to think about it 1027 01:00:46.553 --> 01:00:49.636 but what do I do with those feelings? 1028 01:00:53.721 --> 01:00:56.512 - I think you certainly become extremely cynical 1029 01:00:56.512 --> 01:00:59.097 and I think at some point 1030 01:00:59.097 --> 01:01:02.429 you don't want to take crap from people. 1031 01:01:02.429 --> 01:01:04.754 That you certainly don't want to do. 1032 01:01:04.754 --> 01:01:08.504 If you gain anything from this job it's that, 1033 01:01:11.580 --> 01:01:14.055 I mean in the beginning you're more reasonable, 1034 01:01:14.055 --> 01:01:15.042 you're more naïve, 1035 01:01:15.042 --> 01:01:17.682 and your grant rate's probably a lot higher, 1036 01:01:17.682 --> 01:01:19.182 I think, probably. 1037 01:01:20.304 --> 01:01:21.154 - [Kevin] What do you really think 1038 01:01:21.154 --> 01:01:23.064 when you get the same claim, 1039 01:01:23.064 --> 01:01:26.077 "Oh, I helped pull down the statue of the former dictator." 1040 01:01:26.077 --> 01:01:27.533 (Charlene laughs) - We've gotten a lot of those! 1041 01:01:27.533 --> 01:01:29.029 - [Kevin] I know that! 1042 01:01:29.029 --> 01:01:31.198 - I need detail, I need detail! 1043 01:01:31.198 --> 01:01:33.285 - [Kevin] I took part in a hunger strike. 1044 01:01:33.285 --> 01:01:34.564 I did this, I did that. 1045 01:01:34.564 --> 01:01:35.698 - You know what, we'll discuss it later. 1046 01:01:35.698 --> 01:01:36.726 - [Kevin] They're all the same now, you know? 1047 01:01:36.726 --> 01:01:37.559 (Charlene laughs) 1048 01:01:37.559 --> 01:01:38.627 - I know. 1049 01:01:38.627 --> 01:01:39.622 - [Kevin] So now what do you do? 1050 01:01:39.622 --> 01:01:41.808 (Kevin stammers) 1051 01:01:41.808 --> 01:01:43.249 - Well they have to give me detail. 1052 01:01:43.249 --> 01:01:44.082 - [Kevin] Right. 1053 01:01:44.082 --> 01:01:45.305 They can still get asylum, though. 1054 01:01:45.305 --> 01:01:46.963 - I granted a man that said that 1055 01:01:46.963 --> 01:01:50.998 but then he was also involved with other groups there 1056 01:01:50.998 --> 01:01:53.351 and he could answer my questions. 1057 01:01:53.351 --> 01:01:54.241 - [Kevin] Mmm hmm. 1058 01:01:54.241 --> 01:01:55.264 - He gave me detail, you know? 1059 01:01:55.264 --> 01:01:58.057 He was clearly educated. 1060 01:01:58.057 --> 01:01:58.890 So if-- 1061 01:01:58.890 --> 01:02:00.320 - [Kevin] How about educated people? 1062 01:02:00.320 --> 01:02:01.998 Have a special place in your heart 1063 01:02:01.998 --> 01:02:03.351 for people with education? (Charlene laughs) 1064 01:02:03.351 --> 01:02:04.184 - No! 1065 01:02:04.184 --> 01:02:06.338 But they can give me more information. 1066 01:02:06.338 --> 01:02:07.171 - [Kevin] Yeah. 1067 01:02:07.171 --> 01:02:11.338 - But if you lived it, you can give me the answers, too. 1068 01:02:12.750 --> 01:02:16.102 - When I get somebody from China who I know is a PhD 1069 01:02:16.102 --> 01:02:17.894 I'm much more generous with them 1070 01:02:17.894 --> 01:02:20.466 than I am from some guy who I may think is cookin' 1071 01:02:20.466 --> 01:02:22.198 in the back of some kitchen. 1072 01:02:22.198 --> 01:02:23.031 (Charlene laughs) 1073 01:02:23.031 --> 01:02:25.820 And it's not because, I mean, 1074 01:02:25.820 --> 01:02:28.045 that's not how I'm thinking, either. 1075 01:02:28.045 --> 01:02:31.873 But I'm thinking that, "Oh, this person is very articulate. 1076 01:02:31.873 --> 01:02:33.019 "Their claim is very--" 1077 01:02:33.019 --> 01:02:33.852 - [Charlene] Well of course. 1078 01:02:33.852 --> 01:02:34.957 It makes it easier to understand it. 1079 01:02:34.957 --> 01:02:36.354 And if they can answer your questions 1080 01:02:36.354 --> 01:02:37.830 without you repeating the question 1081 01:02:37.830 --> 01:02:40.454 and rephrasing the question three and four times, 1082 01:02:40.454 --> 01:02:41.787 it makes it easier. 1083 01:02:41.787 --> 01:02:44.690 - Right, but sometimes I wonder if that is, am I-- 1084 01:02:44.690 --> 01:02:45.605 - [Charlene] No, basic-- 1085 01:02:45.605 --> 01:02:48.335 - Am I sympathetic because I can identify 1086 01:02:48.335 --> 01:02:50.311 with this educated person, whereas if-- 1087 01:02:50.311 --> 01:02:51.144 - [Charlene] No, it's not. 1088 01:02:51.144 --> 01:02:53.001 It's because, first of all, when you ask them the question 1089 01:02:53.001 --> 01:02:55.834 they have to establish their case. 1090 01:03:59.307 --> 01:04:01.015 - It's very, 1091 01:04:01.015 --> 01:04:01.848 how do you decide 1092 01:04:01.848 --> 01:04:03.089 whether someone's telling the truth or not? 1093 01:04:03.089 --> 01:04:04.993 It's not simple 1094 01:04:04.993 --> 01:04:06.690 and you're never sure. 1095 01:04:06.690 --> 01:04:09.027 That's the problem. 1096 01:04:09.027 --> 01:04:12.944 If you are pretty sure that it's not the truth, 1097 01:04:15.222 --> 01:04:17.954 that's at least a comfortable position to be in, 1098 01:04:17.954 --> 01:04:19.269 in that you know that you're making the decision 1099 01:04:19.269 --> 01:04:21.160 based on something that's real. 1100 01:04:21.160 --> 01:04:25.604 But in a case like this where it's just plain fuzzy, 1101 01:04:25.604 --> 01:04:27.482 I have to talk to somebody else about it. 1102 01:04:27.482 --> 01:04:29.769 To get another persepctive. 1103 01:04:29.769 --> 01:04:31.991 - [Voiceover] But some of these (mumbles). 1104 01:04:31.991 --> 01:04:32.824 - Some what? 1105 01:04:32.824 --> 01:04:34.032 Yes! 1106 01:04:34.032 --> 01:04:34.865 That's life. 1107 01:04:34.865 --> 01:04:36.453 I mean, it's real life we're dealing with. 1108 01:04:36.453 --> 01:04:38.126 Real people, real situations. 1109 01:04:38.126 --> 01:04:40.543 Yes, they stay fuzzy forever. 1110 01:04:41.486 --> 01:04:43.363 And we still have to make a decision 1111 01:04:43.363 --> 01:04:45.827 based on fuzziness. (Martha-Louise laughs) 1112 01:04:45.827 --> 01:04:49.494 (speaking foreign language) 1113 01:05:49.569 --> 01:05:52.402 - You really become very sensitive 1114 01:05:53.669 --> 01:05:56.777 to what the person has said on their application 1115 01:05:56.777 --> 01:05:59.381 and what they're telling you 1116 01:05:59.381 --> 01:06:02.207 because you know in your heart, as well as your head, 1117 01:06:02.207 --> 01:06:05.058 that the person sitting in front of you, 1118 01:06:05.058 --> 01:06:06.302 none of this happened to them. 1119 01:06:06.302 --> 01:06:08.135 Or it's very unlikely. 1120 01:06:09.032 --> 01:06:13.519 Occasionally you do have a grant, a legitimate grant. 1121 01:06:13.519 --> 01:06:16.067 Why did Mr. Yung leave China 1122 01:06:16.067 --> 01:06:18.067 back in December of '91? 1123 01:06:38.932 --> 01:06:42.419 - The first reason is that he's been sterilized in China. 1124 01:06:42.419 --> 01:06:44.711 The second reason is that in 1989 1125 01:06:44.711 --> 01:06:46.712 he joined the student movement. 1126 01:06:46.712 --> 01:06:49.212 And then he's been persecuted. 1127 01:06:50.347 --> 01:06:51.203 - Okay. 1128 01:06:51.203 --> 01:06:53.825 You didn't leave until December of '91. 1129 01:06:53.825 --> 01:06:56.293 What, if anything, happened to him in 1130 01:06:56.293 --> 01:06:58.323 four and a half years between he was sterilized 1131 01:06:58.323 --> 01:07:00.240 and when he left China? 1132 01:07:30.056 --> 01:07:30.889 - [Jim] Okay, what is he saying, please? 1133 01:07:30.889 --> 01:07:32.597 - Okay, after he's been sterilized 1134 01:07:32.597 --> 01:07:35.172 the people in the village laughed at him 1135 01:07:35.172 --> 01:07:36.922 because he no longer, 1136 01:07:38.488 --> 01:07:40.523 he no longer feels like he's being a man 1137 01:07:40.523 --> 01:07:44.690 because at that time very few male were sterilized. 1138 01:07:45.546 --> 01:07:47.739 Normally just women were sterilized. 1139 01:07:47.739 --> 01:07:50.697 - [Jim] Okay, so he felt some sort of shame 1140 01:07:50.697 --> 01:07:52.414 or he was not getting any kind of respect 1141 01:07:52.414 --> 01:07:54.997 because he had been sterilized? 1142 01:07:59.817 --> 01:08:02.079 (Yung whimpers) 1143 01:08:02.079 --> 01:08:05.419 - [Interpreter] He used to have more than 120 lb. 1144 01:08:05.419 --> 01:08:07.620 Right now he's only 95 lb. 1145 01:08:07.620 --> 01:08:11.787 - [Jim] Why would being sterilized make him lose weight? 1146 01:08:22.608 --> 01:08:23.504 - [Interpreter] He did not know. 1147 01:08:23.504 --> 01:08:25.764 - [Jim] The reason I ask, and I'm not a doctor, 1148 01:08:25.764 --> 01:08:29.181 but I know that when males are sterilized 1149 01:08:30.962 --> 01:08:33.044 you tend to put on some weight, I believe. 1150 01:08:33.044 --> 01:08:36.596 I'm just curious why he would have lost weight. 1151 01:08:36.596 --> 01:08:38.550 - People are actually coached, too. 1152 01:08:38.550 --> 01:08:40.772 I mean, they have people who help them prepare 1153 01:08:40.772 --> 01:08:43.454 these application and tell them what to say. 1154 01:08:43.454 --> 01:08:44.604 Like they tell them, 1155 01:08:44.604 --> 01:08:46.062 "Well you really should cry during the interview." 1156 01:08:46.062 --> 01:08:47.788 Not that that's really going to help them, 1157 01:08:47.788 --> 01:08:49.793 but they think if they cry 1158 01:08:49.793 --> 01:08:51.160 that that's going to get them a grant. 1159 01:08:51.160 --> 01:08:52.104 It's like they don't want to go home. 1160 01:08:52.104 --> 01:08:53.726 They want to stay here. 1161 01:08:53.726 --> 01:08:55.246 Sometimes you can catch them in lies 1162 01:08:55.246 --> 01:08:57.008 and they'll continue to lie. 1163 01:08:57.008 --> 01:08:58.939 - [Kevin] Right, but I think that you just kind of, 1164 01:08:58.939 --> 01:09:02.439 you can't really internalize that, where you're like, 1165 01:09:02.439 --> 01:09:04.204 "Look at this guy, lyin' to me." 1166 01:09:04.204 --> 01:09:05.037 - No, it's hard sometimes. 1167 01:09:05.037 --> 01:09:07.199 Yeah, it really bothers me when people sit here 1168 01:09:07.199 --> 01:09:08.719 and they just lie to me. 1169 01:09:08.719 --> 01:09:11.030 - [Interpreter] The next night at 7 o'clock in the evening 1170 01:09:11.030 --> 01:09:13.801 the public security people come. 1171 01:09:13.801 --> 01:09:14.900 They take him away. 1172 01:09:14.900 --> 01:09:17.400 - All right, so what happened? 1173 01:09:35.924 --> 01:09:37.572 - Okay, what is he saying, pleas?. 1174 01:09:37.572 --> 01:09:38.842 - [Interpreter] Okay, one of the guards 1175 01:09:38.842 --> 01:09:40.925 was sleeping by the door. 1176 01:09:47.655 --> 01:09:49.745 - [Jim] Okay what is he saying, please? 1177 01:09:49.745 --> 01:09:51.047 - [Interpreter] Okay there were four guards. 1178 01:09:51.047 --> 01:09:53.909 They were playing cards until one of-- 1179 01:09:53.909 --> 01:09:55.358 - [Jim] Okay there were four guards. 1180 01:09:55.358 --> 01:09:57.045 - [Interpreter] Okay. 1181 01:09:57.045 --> 01:09:59.128 - [Jim] So what happened? 1182 01:10:12.657 --> 01:10:14.358 - Okay, he was handcuffed to the bed 1183 01:10:14.358 --> 01:10:15.776 but when everybody went to sleep 1184 01:10:15.776 --> 01:10:17.377 he wanted to open the handcuff. 1185 01:10:17.377 --> 01:10:21.210 - [Jim] How was he able to open the handcuffs? 1186 01:10:29.217 --> 01:10:30.113 - [Interpreter] He said normally the handcuff 1187 01:10:30.113 --> 01:10:33.651 he cannot open, a normal handcuff, 1188 01:10:33.651 --> 01:10:35.745 but that one is not very good. 1189 01:10:35.745 --> 01:10:39.022 - Okay so how did he get out of the situation? 1190 01:10:39.022 --> 01:10:40.478 Obviously he's sitting in front of me. 1191 01:10:40.478 --> 01:10:41.645 What happened? 1192 01:10:49.260 --> 01:10:50.156 - [Interpreter] He climbed out from the window 1193 01:10:50.156 --> 01:10:51.432 on the third floor. 1194 01:10:51.432 --> 01:10:54.136 - He climbed out of the window on the third floor? 1195 01:10:54.136 --> 01:10:55.122 - [Interpreter] Mmm hmm. 1196 01:10:55.122 --> 01:10:55.955 - Okay. 1197 01:11:05.803 --> 01:11:07.480 - What happened after he climbed out the window 1198 01:11:07.480 --> 01:11:09.063 on the third floor? 1199 01:11:16.890 --> 01:11:17.945 - [Interpreter] Okay, he walked 1200 01:11:17.945 --> 01:11:19.017 to the Shanghai train station. 1201 01:11:19.017 --> 01:11:21.457 - He just, he climbed out the window. 1202 01:11:21.457 --> 01:11:23.976 In Shanghai, largest city in China. 1203 01:11:23.976 --> 01:11:26.055 Climbed down from the third-floor window, 1204 01:11:26.055 --> 01:11:28.461 walked to the train station, bought himself a ticket, 1205 01:11:28.461 --> 01:11:30.453 and went to wherever he was going. 1206 01:11:30.453 --> 01:11:32.152 Is that correct? 1207 01:11:32.152 --> 01:11:34.069 I mean, nobody saw him? 1208 01:11:42.131 --> 01:11:43.214 - [Interpreter] Okay, nobody saw him climb down 1209 01:11:43.214 --> 01:11:44.797 from the window but of course when 1210 01:11:44.797 --> 01:11:48.297 he's walking on the street people saw him. 1211 01:11:49.396 --> 01:11:51.172 - [Interpreter] He say it's his luck. 1212 01:11:51.172 --> 01:11:52.005 - Okay. 1213 01:11:52.005 --> 01:11:53.338 That's for sure. 1214 01:11:55.118 --> 01:11:56.380 All right, what does he think would happen to him 1215 01:11:56.380 --> 01:11:57.713 if he went back? 1216 01:12:18.907 --> 01:12:20.606 - [Interpreter] Okay, he'll be fined, too. 1217 01:12:20.606 --> 01:12:23.134 And the issue regarding the June 4th movement 1218 01:12:23.134 --> 01:12:27.094 hasn't been resolved to give him further trouble. 1219 01:12:27.094 --> 01:12:27.927 - Mmm hmm. 1220 01:12:29.661 --> 01:12:31.334 Okay, just a couple more questions 1221 01:12:31.334 --> 01:12:33.501 and I think we'll be done. 1222 01:12:34.769 --> 01:12:36.352 What can I tell ya? 1223 01:12:38.162 --> 01:12:39.329 They try hard. 1224 01:12:42.953 --> 01:12:43.786 Anyway. 1225 01:12:44.907 --> 01:12:47.678 Just another day at the office. 1226 01:12:47.678 --> 01:12:49.811 - [Voiceover] Is that, 1227 01:12:49.811 --> 01:12:51.879 is that an unusual story? 1228 01:12:51.879 --> 01:12:54.868 - Usually the more common one, 1229 01:12:54.868 --> 01:12:58.214 and he was giving the democracy movement type. 1230 01:12:58.214 --> 01:13:00.219 The more common one, 1231 01:13:00.219 --> 01:13:01.585 especially for a birth control case, 1232 01:13:01.585 --> 01:13:03.970 is, "I was in a police station. 1233 01:13:03.970 --> 01:13:06.487 "There are five or six guys around me. 1234 01:13:06.487 --> 01:13:09.349 "Somehow, some way I escaped." 1235 01:13:09.349 --> 01:13:11.416 You know, I mean. 1236 01:13:11.416 --> 01:13:13.881 And they'll often say they went to the bathroom 1237 01:13:13.881 --> 01:13:16.193 and climbed out a window. 1238 01:13:16.193 --> 01:13:19.207 In fact, Frank has a very funny assessment 1239 01:13:19.207 --> 01:13:21.709 he wrote about that, which he later changed, of course. 1240 01:13:21.709 --> 01:13:25.669 But his comment was, "Police stations, fujos, 1241 01:13:25.669 --> 01:13:26.793 "police stations and fujos, 1242 01:13:26.793 --> 01:13:30.960 "consider putting bars on their bathroom windows." 1243 01:13:32.079 --> 01:13:35.080 But that's the more common story, you know. 1244 01:13:35.080 --> 01:13:37.124 "Five or six guys surrounded me. 1245 01:13:37.124 --> 01:13:41.914 "I was in a police station and yet lo and behold 1246 01:13:41.914 --> 01:13:43.152 "I got out of it." 1247 01:13:43.152 --> 01:13:45.170 So that's more common. 1248 01:13:45.170 --> 01:13:46.716 Let me see, now did I copy this? 1249 01:13:46.716 --> 01:13:47.840 Yeah I did. 1250 01:13:47.840 --> 01:13:49.448 But yeah, it was different. 1251 01:13:49.448 --> 01:13:53.531 It was a twist on the same tall tale, as it were. 1252 01:13:59.141 --> 01:13:59.974 (soft music) 1253 01:13:59.974 --> 01:14:03.589 - [Woman In Green] Flavi, window four. 1254 01:14:03.589 --> 01:14:06.935 - [Voiceover] Anton Slyku, window number six, please. 1255 01:14:06.935 --> 01:14:09.239 - [Woman In Green] Hi, who's Flavi? 1256 01:14:09.239 --> 01:14:10.822 You have ID, ma'am? 1257 01:14:11.815 --> 01:14:13.731 Tell her that her case has been referred 1258 01:14:13.731 --> 01:14:15.876 to the immigration judge. 1259 01:14:15.876 --> 01:14:16.709 Tell her what-- 1260 01:14:16.709 --> 01:14:18.945 - This is maybe the 450th time 1261 01:14:18.945 --> 01:14:22.456 that I've interviewed a similar case. 1262 01:14:22.456 --> 01:14:24.155 Because I've had this experience, 1263 01:14:24.155 --> 01:14:26.952 I'm seeing it totally different. 1264 01:14:26.952 --> 01:14:29.303 Totally different story. 1265 01:14:29.303 --> 01:14:31.154 You sat in on one case that I had 1266 01:14:31.154 --> 01:14:33.324 and I made a credibility determination. 1267 01:14:33.324 --> 01:14:34.577 You know, well at first he said 1268 01:14:34.577 --> 01:14:35.943 there were two people in the van, 1269 01:14:35.943 --> 01:14:37.105 then he said there were three, 1270 01:14:37.105 --> 01:14:38.343 and then he said, you know, 1271 01:14:38.343 --> 01:14:42.034 and I determined that this person was incredible. 1272 01:14:42.034 --> 01:14:45.036 You know, aside from the horrible story, 1273 01:14:45.036 --> 01:14:47.335 you know, that he was detained and beaten. 1274 01:14:47.335 --> 01:14:49.680 And I do that every day. 1275 01:14:49.680 --> 01:14:52.347 And I've referred people, women, 1276 01:14:53.752 --> 01:14:55.603 who've told me that they were raped 1277 01:14:55.603 --> 01:14:57.698 and that they've been abused and they've been, you know, 1278 01:14:57.698 --> 01:14:58.898 and I did do it because 1279 01:14:58.898 --> 01:15:00.775 they didn't fall within the framework 1280 01:15:00.775 --> 01:15:02.806 of what it takes to get asylum. 1281 01:15:02.806 --> 01:15:05.041 I did it because I found that they weren't credible, 1282 01:15:05.041 --> 01:15:07.958 you know, and that maybe, you know, 1283 01:15:08.821 --> 01:15:11.018 someone who wasn't, 1284 01:15:11.018 --> 01:15:14.186 well, who hadn't done this enough. 1285 01:15:14.186 --> 01:15:16.177 And I know in the beginning, as I said earlier, 1286 01:15:16.177 --> 01:15:17.722 that I used to grant a whole lot more. 1287 01:15:17.722 --> 01:15:20.169 But, you know, after you do this for awhile 1288 01:15:20.169 --> 01:15:22.586 you become much more critical 1289 01:15:23.648 --> 01:15:27.815 and you become very, you know, aware of inconsistencies. 1290 01:15:30.762 --> 01:15:32.627 And I hope that's what it is, right? 1291 01:15:32.627 --> 01:15:36.126 I mean it could be the fact that you're just very jaded. 1292 01:15:36.126 --> 01:15:37.607 You know? 1293 01:15:37.607 --> 01:15:40.877 And how do you know where one begins and the other ends? 1294 01:15:40.877 --> 01:15:43.544 I mean, how do I know, you know, 1295 01:15:45.482 --> 01:15:47.377 if I admitted that I was jaded, 1296 01:15:47.377 --> 01:15:49.421 wouldn't I then be saying that I shouldn't be doing 1297 01:15:49.421 --> 01:15:51.566 this job anymore? 1298 01:15:51.566 --> 01:15:53.979 So I say that I have a more acute understanding 1299 01:15:53.979 --> 01:15:55.812 of credibility issues. 1300 01:15:59.281 --> 01:16:01.003 - What language did you translate in? 1301 01:16:01.003 --> 01:16:02.358 - [Man] Chinese Mandarin. 1302 01:16:02.358 --> 01:16:03.191 - Mandarin? 1303 01:16:03.191 --> 01:16:04.024 Okay. 1304 01:16:04.024 --> 01:16:08.828 - With the Chinese cases you have to just go for them 1305 01:16:08.828 --> 01:16:10.679 in terms of their credibility 1306 01:16:10.679 --> 01:16:13.387 and usually you can get them. 1307 01:16:13.387 --> 01:16:16.361 And I realize that sounds kind of sinister. 1308 01:16:16.361 --> 01:16:17.856 Going to get 'em! 1309 01:16:17.856 --> 01:16:20.229 But that's what you gotta do. 1310 01:16:20.229 --> 01:16:22.300 - This is the judge's copy. 1311 01:16:22.300 --> 01:16:24.203 Sign it also. 1312 01:16:24.203 --> 01:16:27.003 - It's usually not too difficult. 1313 01:16:27.003 --> 01:16:28.341 They're not too sophisticated. 1314 01:16:28.341 --> 01:16:31.382 They're basically a bunch of farmers and factory workers 1315 01:16:31.382 --> 01:16:34.037 and they've been basically practicing some story. 1316 01:16:34.037 --> 01:16:34.870 Come on, get Ed! 1317 01:16:34.870 --> 01:16:35.992 He wants his, come on. 1318 01:16:35.992 --> 01:16:36.825 Film Ed! 1319 01:16:36.825 --> 01:16:37.658 - I'm honored. 1320 01:16:37.658 --> 01:16:38.881 - [Voiceover] How many of them go back and complain 1321 01:16:38.881 --> 01:16:41.026 to the preparer that their story wasn't-- 1322 01:16:41.026 --> 01:16:41.859 - None. 1323 01:16:41.859 --> 01:16:42.692 - [Voiceover] All that good? 1324 01:16:42.692 --> 01:16:46.716 - None, because the preparer's got all the cards. 1325 01:16:46.716 --> 01:16:50.035 I'm sure the bottom line report or threat is, 1326 01:16:50.035 --> 01:16:53.139 "You give me any trouble and I'll report you to Immigration, 1327 01:16:53.139 --> 01:16:55.093 "tell 'em that your whole claim is bogus, 1328 01:16:55.093 --> 01:16:57.621 "and you're gonna be on the next plane back to Beijing." 1329 01:16:57.621 --> 01:17:01.538 Or Fujin or wherever it is they're coming from. 1330 01:17:02.569 --> 01:17:04.509 And they can't speak the language, 1331 01:17:04.509 --> 01:17:07.941 they don't know anything about the... 1332 01:17:07.941 --> 01:17:09.524 legal avenues here, 1333 01:17:10.743 --> 01:17:11.982 so they just go along with it. 1334 01:17:11.982 --> 01:17:13.897 - [Jim] Yeah but don't you think they privately 1335 01:17:13.897 --> 01:17:14.768 laugh at us, too? 1336 01:17:14.768 --> 01:17:16.886 'Cause even when we, you know, do all this 1337 01:17:16.886 --> 01:17:18.138 and send 'em to the judge 1338 01:17:18.138 --> 01:17:19.210 and the judge deports 'em, 1339 01:17:19.210 --> 01:17:20.973 in a sense nothing happens to 'em. 1340 01:17:20.973 --> 01:17:23.168 Don't they, I mean, word gets around. 1341 01:17:23.168 --> 01:17:24.001 They gotta know that. 1342 01:17:24.001 --> 01:17:24.834 - [Ed] Sure it is. 1343 01:17:24.834 --> 01:17:26.403 If they didn't, they wouldn't be here. 1344 01:17:26.403 --> 01:17:27.236 - Right. 1345 01:17:27.236 --> 01:17:29.491 Then what's the point of them even coming here? 1346 01:17:29.491 --> 01:17:32.022 - Because if they don't come here, they can't get anything. 1347 01:17:32.022 --> 01:17:35.036 If they do come here, they might get something. 1348 01:17:35.036 --> 01:17:36.505 - [Jim] But they know it's the lottery 1349 01:17:36.505 --> 01:17:37.987 and the odds are stacked. 1350 01:17:37.987 --> 01:17:41.791 - Right, but have you ever bought a lottery ticket? 1351 01:17:41.791 --> 01:17:45.708 (people speaking indistinctly) 1352 01:17:46.723 --> 01:17:48.550 - [Man With Glasses] Javio? 1353 01:17:48.550 --> 01:17:50.071 Javett? 1354 01:17:50.071 --> 01:17:50.904 Javio? 1355 01:17:56.238 --> 01:17:57.222 - [Voiceover] What's the name? 1356 01:17:57.222 --> 01:17:58.055 - Javio. 1357 01:17:59.378 --> 01:18:01.780 - Is he calling your name? 1358 01:18:01.780 --> 01:18:03.454 - [Martha-Louise] Ishang? 1359 01:18:03.454 --> 01:18:04.287 Huang Ho? 1360 01:18:07.171 --> 01:18:09.995 We may be turning the applicants into cases 1361 01:18:09.995 --> 01:18:12.078 as opposed to human beings. 1362 01:18:12.078 --> 01:18:14.450 (soft music) 1363 01:18:14.450 --> 01:18:16.950 - [Voiceover] Mr. Juan Carlos? 1364 01:18:18.856 --> 01:18:19.776 - [Martha-Louise] Everybody does it. 1365 01:18:19.776 --> 01:18:23.943 You know, once you start hearing things that sound the same, 1366 01:18:25.103 --> 01:18:26.279 I mean we used to say that it was easy 1367 01:18:26.279 --> 01:18:27.112 when we had the Chinese cases 1368 01:18:27.112 --> 01:18:29.257 because none of them were telling the truth. 1369 01:18:29.257 --> 01:18:30.674 It's all made up. 1370 01:18:33.344 --> 01:18:34.607 Well yeah, I've had a lot of cases 1371 01:18:34.607 --> 01:18:35.795 where people have told me things 1372 01:18:35.795 --> 01:18:37.685 that I have figured out are not true, 1373 01:18:37.685 --> 01:18:38.758 who are Chinese, 1374 01:18:38.758 --> 01:18:39.757 but I've also had an awful lot of Chinese 1375 01:18:39.757 --> 01:18:41.008 who have applied for asylum 1376 01:18:41.008 --> 01:18:43.959 that have told me things that are true. 1377 01:18:43.959 --> 01:18:46.769 So I can't believe that everybody who tells the truth 1378 01:18:46.769 --> 01:18:47.623 comes to me. 1379 01:18:47.623 --> 01:18:50.873 (Martha-Louise laughs) 1380 01:18:56.219 --> 01:18:58.237 - [Kevin] I think a lot of cases are actually great. 1381 01:18:58.237 --> 01:19:02.157 It's just hard sometimes bringing out the testimony, 1382 01:19:02.157 --> 01:19:02.990 you know? 1383 01:19:04.576 --> 01:19:08.722 I mean the most skeletal application for asylum, 1384 01:19:08.722 --> 01:19:10.305 it could be like lots of great stuff 1385 01:19:10.305 --> 01:19:13.222 in three inches of, like, bullshit. 1386 01:19:14.297 --> 01:19:16.533 - [Rob] Okay, but how old were you? 1387 01:19:16.533 --> 01:19:17.950 Give me a figure. 1388 01:19:24.956 --> 01:19:26.289 - [Interpreter] 11, 12 years old. 1389 01:19:26.289 --> 01:19:27.585 There was a crowd. 1390 01:19:27.585 --> 01:19:31.182 - [Rob] One day I had a guy who just had a 1391 01:19:31.182 --> 01:19:34.099 just boilerplate one-child policy case. 1392 01:19:34.099 --> 01:19:36.119 I mean it couldn't have been more boilerplate. 1393 01:19:36.119 --> 01:19:38.290 And of course nothing like that ever happens 1394 01:19:38.290 --> 01:19:39.176 and he didn't know anything 1395 01:19:39.176 --> 01:19:40.580 about what was on the application. 1396 01:19:40.580 --> 01:19:43.314 And for some reason we start talking about religion. 1397 01:19:43.314 --> 01:19:45.484 He said he was a Catholic, you know, 1398 01:19:45.484 --> 01:19:47.120 and then I ask him questions about that 1399 01:19:47.120 --> 01:19:48.910 and then there was all this stuff that came out 1400 01:19:48.910 --> 01:19:52.789 and then he produced a wanted notice, 1401 01:19:52.789 --> 01:19:53.824 you know, from his pocket. 1402 01:19:53.824 --> 01:19:54.769 This crumbled up thing. 1403 01:19:54.769 --> 01:19:58.409 I had it analyzed here and elsewhere, okay, 1404 01:19:58.409 --> 01:19:59.418 and it was the real thing. 1405 01:19:59.418 --> 01:20:01.678 I mean, he actually had mass in his house, 1406 01:20:01.678 --> 01:20:04.143 and you know, he would invite priests in 1407 01:20:04.143 --> 01:20:06.671 and he had been targeted a number of times. 1408 01:20:06.671 --> 01:20:07.822 And I said, "Why didn't you tell me this?" 1409 01:20:07.822 --> 01:20:10.285 "Well this is just what the preparers told me to do, 1410 01:20:10.285 --> 01:20:12.840 "to come and tell you that I was married and had kids." 1411 01:20:12.840 --> 01:20:13.673 You know? (soft music) 1412 01:20:13.673 --> 01:20:15.611 It's a great case. 1413 01:20:15.611 --> 01:20:17.124 So you learn as you go. 1414 01:20:17.124 --> 01:20:18.368 That's the great part about this 1415 01:20:18.368 --> 01:20:22.535 is you don't know what's walking through the door. 1416 01:22:24.664 --> 01:22:28.831 - This one isn't graded (mumbles). 1417 01:22:29.715 --> 01:22:33.632 (people speaking indistinctly) 1418 01:22:41.708 --> 01:22:45.875 - I don't know what would have happened if I remain 1419 01:22:48.672 --> 01:22:51.755 but I knew I had to get out of there. 1420 01:22:53.484 --> 01:22:55.401 - [Voiceover] Mr. Saab? 1421 01:22:56.242 --> 01:22:57.225 (speaking foreign language) 1422 01:22:57.225 --> 01:22:59.440 - I came here, I applied for political asylum, 1423 01:22:59.440 --> 01:23:02.440 and finally after almost seven years 1424 01:23:03.844 --> 01:23:06.344 I have an interview scheduled. 1425 01:23:09.718 --> 01:23:11.392 By training I'm an engineer. 1426 01:23:11.392 --> 01:23:13.808 I'm a mechanical engineer by training. 1427 01:23:13.808 --> 01:23:17.805 Obviously the first one, one and half years maybe 1428 01:23:17.805 --> 01:23:21.706 I tried to find a job as an engineer. 1429 01:23:21.706 --> 01:23:24.215 Nobody would look at me. 1430 01:23:24.215 --> 01:23:25.364 No American experience, 1431 01:23:25.364 --> 01:23:29.531 you have no clue what engineering is like in this country, 1432 01:23:31.091 --> 01:23:32.924 why would we hire you? 1433 01:23:35.757 --> 01:23:38.007 So I took the oddest jobs-- 1434 01:23:39.075 --> 01:23:40.658 - [Voiceover] Like? 1435 01:23:41.838 --> 01:23:46.005 - I wrapped flyers for the weekend issues of the Times 1436 01:23:50.478 --> 01:23:54.522 or of the New York whatever, Post, or Daily News. 1437 01:23:54.522 --> 01:23:58.021 I wrapped those flyers and put them in a plastic bag 1438 01:23:58.021 --> 01:23:59.771 and distributed them. 1439 01:24:02.346 --> 01:24:03.882 Obviously I was in construction, 1440 01:24:03.882 --> 01:24:05.882 like unqualified worker. 1441 01:24:08.903 --> 01:24:11.336 My wife was cleaning. 1442 01:24:11.336 --> 01:24:13.909 You name it, I think I've done it. 1443 01:24:13.909 --> 01:24:15.619 - Did you turn in your slips? 1444 01:24:15.619 --> 01:24:17.036 - [Cristian] Yes. 1445 01:24:18.501 --> 01:24:19.334 Hi. 1446 01:24:19.334 --> 01:24:20.572 - You nervous? 1447 01:24:20.572 --> 01:24:21.639 (woman chuckles) 1448 01:24:21.639 --> 01:24:24.057 - You could say that. 1449 01:24:24.057 --> 01:24:25.845 - [Woman With Glasses] You ready for this? 1450 01:24:25.845 --> 01:24:29.223 - [Cristian] I'm ready for this for seven years. 1451 01:24:29.223 --> 01:24:31.707 - [Woman With Glasses] Did you bring the translations? 1452 01:24:31.707 --> 01:24:32.881 - [Cristian] Yes. 1453 01:24:32.881 --> 01:24:33.714 (soft music) 1454 01:24:33.714 --> 01:24:36.464 What if my asylum case is denied? 1455 01:24:38.142 --> 01:24:40.475 What if I'm sent back there? 1456 01:24:45.583 --> 01:24:48.250 Seven years I started from zero. 1457 01:24:49.455 --> 01:24:53.314 I got to a point where actually I'm giving. 1458 01:24:53.314 --> 01:24:57.327 And all of a sudden I'm facing this possibility. 1459 01:24:57.327 --> 01:24:59.333 Hey, we don't care. 1460 01:24:59.333 --> 01:25:01.283 You can start all over again. 1461 01:25:01.283 --> 01:25:03.805 But seven years may be my best years. 1462 01:25:03.805 --> 01:25:04.638 Who knows? 1463 01:25:50.313 --> 01:25:52.563 - [Voiceover] Farida Fulta? 1464 01:27:31.710 --> 01:27:33.056 - [Gerald] Oh Jesus. 1465 01:27:33.056 --> 01:27:34.034 If there's ever been a country 1466 01:27:34.034 --> 01:27:37.701 that'll bring tears to your eyes, that's it. 1467 01:27:40.155 --> 01:27:43.449 Any case from Algeria you have to take seriously 1468 01:27:43.449 --> 01:27:47.616 because it's such a dangerous, you know, volatile place. 1469 01:27:51.171 --> 01:27:55.235 I think that everybody in the country's in danger. 1470 01:27:55.235 --> 01:27:57.902 And to me the whole thing hinges 1471 01:27:59.783 --> 01:28:03.366 on whether her family has been singled out. 1472 01:28:04.899 --> 01:28:08.816 (people speaking indistinctly) 1473 01:28:10.635 --> 01:28:12.135 Farida Ali Latane? 1474 01:28:15.121 --> 01:28:17.848 What I want to do is to talk to you for awhile 1475 01:28:17.848 --> 01:28:19.996 about why you're seeking asylum 1476 01:28:19.996 --> 01:28:23.798 and understand your story as best I can. 1477 01:28:23.798 --> 01:28:26.192 You should feel free to talk to me. 1478 01:28:26.192 --> 01:28:30.359 Nothing that you say will go back to your government. 1479 01:28:58.263 --> 01:29:00.125 - [Gerald] What's she talking about? 1480 01:29:00.125 --> 01:29:04.460 - [Interpreter] She is saying we come from a family that-- 1481 01:29:04.460 --> 01:29:06.541 - Okay, I'm going to talk to her about it. 1482 01:29:06.541 --> 01:29:10.708 Right now I'm just trying to explain what's going to happen. 1483 01:29:11.866 --> 01:29:14.781 There are a couple of things that I'm going to understand 1484 01:29:14.781 --> 01:29:16.917 about the written testimony, ma'am. 1485 01:29:16.917 --> 01:29:18.164 Here it says, 1486 01:29:18.164 --> 01:29:22.331 "On or about July 1996 I was on the beach with my daughter. 1487 01:29:24.013 --> 01:29:28.772 "Two bombs exploded, killing and wounding several people. 1488 01:29:28.772 --> 01:29:30.716 "Our neighbor." 1489 01:29:30.716 --> 01:29:32.956 - [Woman In Blue] That was my (mumbles). 1490 01:29:32.956 --> 01:29:35.456 - Okay, what's the rest of it? 1491 01:30:12.746 --> 01:30:15.800 - [Interpreter] She was with her father, and her daughter, 1492 01:30:15.800 --> 01:30:18.485 her mother, and her aunt on the beach 1493 01:30:18.485 --> 01:30:21.883 and as soon as they just passed by-- 1494 01:30:21.883 --> 01:30:23.289 - [Farida] Just five minutes. 1495 01:30:23.289 --> 01:30:25.886 - [Interpreter] Two bombs exploded, 1496 01:30:25.886 --> 01:30:29.936 just like five minutes after she passed the area. 1497 01:30:29.936 --> 01:30:31.686 - [Gerald] All right. 1498 01:30:32.984 --> 01:30:35.712 - [Paul-Anthony] Now why are you applying for asylum? 1499 01:30:35.712 --> 01:30:38.462 (Cristian sighs) 1500 01:30:41.463 --> 01:30:44.130 - I was very active politically. 1501 01:30:46.813 --> 01:30:49.563 I do believe that because of that 1502 01:30:51.559 --> 01:30:54.870 I'm targeted by ex-communists, 1503 01:30:54.870 --> 01:30:57.953 ex-(mumbles) people, 1504 01:30:58.847 --> 01:31:02.180 that don't like, didn't like what I did, 1505 01:31:04.244 --> 01:31:06.077 what I said, my deeds. 1506 01:31:07.595 --> 01:31:09.512 They are out to get me. 1507 01:31:15.736 --> 01:31:17.087 - [Paul-Anthony] 'Kay, were you a member of any groups 1508 01:31:17.087 --> 01:31:18.733 or organizations in your home country? 1509 01:31:18.733 --> 01:31:20.631 - Political organization, yes. 1510 01:31:20.631 --> 01:31:22.689 I was member of the Liberal National, 1511 01:31:22.689 --> 01:31:24.856 or National Liberal Party. 1512 01:31:27.159 --> 01:31:29.655 - [Paul-Anthony] And when did you join that group? 1513 01:31:29.655 --> 01:31:31.614 - Actually I was a co-founder of the party 1514 01:31:31.614 --> 01:31:34.763 immediately after the '89 revolution. 1515 01:31:34.763 --> 01:31:37.482 - [Paul-Anthony] Did you have any other title or position? 1516 01:31:37.482 --> 01:31:39.899 - Yeah, I was vice president. 1517 01:31:42.396 --> 01:31:44.896 I would say within a few weeks 1518 01:31:47.002 --> 01:31:50.588 we were quickly over 1,000 members. 1519 01:31:50.588 --> 01:31:53.357 At that point, I mean it was two, three weeks, 1520 01:31:53.357 --> 01:31:55.507 one month after the revolution. 1521 01:31:55.507 --> 01:31:57.928 Everybody was excited, everybody was like, 1522 01:31:57.928 --> 01:31:59.714 "Hey, democracy's here. 1523 01:31:59.714 --> 01:32:02.035 "We are free, we can do whatever we want. 1524 01:32:02.035 --> 01:32:04.285 "We can express our views." 1525 01:32:05.131 --> 01:32:08.464 - [Gerald] When were you married, ma'am? 1526 01:32:21.930 --> 01:32:23.106 (women chuckle) 1527 01:32:23.106 --> 01:32:27.023 - [Interpreter] Differences in language. 1528 01:32:27.023 --> 01:32:27.940 Which year? 1529 01:32:38.603 --> 01:32:39.436 - January? 1530 01:32:39.436 --> 01:32:40.269 - January. (phone rings) 1531 01:32:40.269 --> 01:32:41.102 - [Interpreter] January? 1532 01:32:41.102 --> 01:32:42.768 - Yeah, January. 1533 01:32:42.768 --> 01:32:44.559 - January '94. 1534 01:32:44.559 --> 01:32:46.837 It's just different company 1535 01:32:46.837 --> 01:32:49.606 so there is some differences sometimes. 1536 01:32:49.606 --> 01:32:50.689 - I turned it off. 1537 01:32:50.689 --> 01:32:51.661 I thought it was off. 1538 01:32:51.661 --> 01:32:52.561 I'm sorry. 1539 01:32:52.561 --> 01:32:53.865 - It's all right. 1540 01:32:53.865 --> 01:32:55.170 Are you okay, ma'am? 1541 01:32:55.170 --> 01:32:56.003 - [Woman In Blue] I'm fine. 1542 01:32:56.003 --> 01:32:56.836 I will just-- 1543 01:32:56.836 --> 01:32:57.771 - It's all right. 1544 01:32:57.771 --> 01:32:59.293 - The problem is she speaks French, too, 1545 01:32:59.293 --> 01:33:01.297 and every once in awhile she'll throw in a French word 1546 01:33:01.297 --> 01:33:02.342 and she doesn't speak any. 1547 01:33:02.342 --> 01:33:03.175 - [Interpreter] See sometimes she says 1548 01:33:03.175 --> 01:33:04.215 French word, French words. 1549 01:33:04.215 --> 01:33:05.173 - We're gonna take our time and we're gonna do 1550 01:33:05.173 --> 01:33:08.673 what we need to do to do this right, okay? 1551 01:33:09.993 --> 01:33:13.238 It's because it's hard enough to concentrate on them. 1552 01:33:13.238 --> 01:33:14.487 That's why I don't want you talking. 1553 01:33:14.487 --> 01:33:17.157 If there's a big mistake, let me know, 1554 01:33:17.157 --> 01:33:20.281 'cause I want to do it right rather than be happy over here. 1555 01:33:20.281 --> 01:33:21.114 - [Woman In Blue] Okay. 1556 01:33:21.114 --> 01:33:21.958 - [Interpreter] It's just she forgets 1557 01:33:21.958 --> 01:33:24.758 and she talks to me in French and I don't know French. 1558 01:33:24.758 --> 01:33:25.935 - Okay now let's try it again. 1559 01:33:25.935 --> 01:33:28.332 When were you married? 1560 01:33:28.332 --> 01:33:31.665 - I paid dearly for the fact that I was too enthusiastic 1561 01:33:31.665 --> 01:33:33.234 when the first government changed, 1562 01:33:33.234 --> 01:33:37.401 when Ceausescu fell and the new government came to power. 1563 01:33:38.257 --> 01:33:42.493 Another government changes and you have this. 1564 01:33:42.493 --> 01:33:46.818 You have the same guy that killed people and was tried. 1565 01:33:46.818 --> 01:33:48.235 He's appointed as 1566 01:33:49.866 --> 01:33:52.283 not an employee but the chief 1567 01:33:55.934 --> 01:33:59.807 for the secret police for the western part of the country. 1568 01:33:59.807 --> 01:34:01.890 This tells me everything. 1569 01:34:02.871 --> 01:34:06.208 Now, this other guy who interrogated me, 1570 01:34:06.208 --> 01:34:08.775 who hit me, who beat me. 1571 01:34:08.775 --> 01:34:10.525 He is still in power. 1572 01:34:11.631 --> 01:34:15.798 - [Gerald] Okay, what was the next thing that happened? 1573 01:34:25.111 --> 01:34:28.528 - And then she received a telephone call. 1574 01:34:31.232 --> 01:34:34.649 - About that she is not wearing the veil. 1575 01:34:42.696 --> 01:34:45.243 - And they said if you don't wear the veil, 1576 01:34:45.243 --> 01:34:46.701 you're going the get killed. 1577 01:34:46.701 --> 01:34:48.910 You're going to die. 1578 01:34:48.910 --> 01:34:51.243 - Okay when did that happen? 1579 01:35:05.933 --> 01:35:07.933 - That was December '95. 1580 01:35:15.525 --> 01:35:16.358 - October? 1581 01:35:16.358 --> 01:35:18.108 That was October '95. 1582 01:35:23.346 --> 01:35:25.165 - [Interpreter] No, in '94. 1583 01:35:25.165 --> 01:35:28.998 - Okay, so the phone call came in October '94? 1584 01:35:31.990 --> 01:35:33.061 - What did she say, ma'am? 1585 01:35:33.061 --> 01:35:34.410 - [Interpreter] She's trying to remember. 1586 01:35:34.410 --> 01:35:37.910 She say, "I was pregnant, I was pregnant." 1587 01:35:41.216 --> 01:35:44.318 - [Interpreter] She's saying that I was, like, 1588 01:35:44.318 --> 01:35:46.343 five months pregnant. 1589 01:35:46.343 --> 01:35:50.510 - Okay, so the phone call then came in October '94, right? 1590 01:35:53.471 --> 01:35:54.570 - [Farida] Yeah. - [Interpreter] Yes. 1591 01:35:54.570 --> 01:35:56.026 - Okay. 1592 01:35:56.026 --> 01:36:00.109 All right, what was the next thing that happened? 1593 01:36:13.098 --> 01:36:16.260 - [Interpreter] She was scared to go out. 1594 01:36:16.260 --> 01:36:19.482 She cannot because of this phone calls. 1595 01:36:19.482 --> 01:36:20.454 - Mmm hmm, you say-- 1596 01:36:20.454 --> 01:36:21.905 - [Interpreter] It's not just one. 1597 01:36:21.905 --> 01:36:24.634 - Well, she only told me about one. 1598 01:36:24.634 --> 01:36:27.967 How many phone calls did you get, ma'am? 1599 01:36:29.975 --> 01:36:32.269 - [Interpreter] Five phone calls. 1600 01:36:32.269 --> 01:36:34.019 - What I know is that 1601 01:36:36.478 --> 01:36:37.645 I heard, like, 1602 01:36:39.327 --> 01:36:40.788 what can you do with three guys? 1603 01:36:40.788 --> 01:36:44.138 I tried to hit back unsuccessfully. 1604 01:36:44.138 --> 01:36:48.305 But they said, "Hey, this is a guy that makes politics." 1605 01:36:52.133 --> 01:36:55.420 And, "You like to make politics?" 1606 01:36:55.420 --> 01:36:58.334 And they hit me, they hit me unconscious. 1607 01:36:58.334 --> 01:37:01.067 Because the next thing I know it was like, 1608 01:37:01.067 --> 01:37:03.867 I know I was in the hospital. 1609 01:37:03.867 --> 01:37:05.868 - I never wanted to leave the country. 1610 01:37:05.868 --> 01:37:08.364 I was the one who kept him. 1611 01:37:08.364 --> 01:37:10.206 During the Ceausescu era 1612 01:37:10.206 --> 01:37:12.441 when he wanted to defect several times 1613 01:37:12.441 --> 01:37:15.315 and I was the one who was begging him, "Let's stay here. 1614 01:37:15.315 --> 01:37:16.492 "Here's our place." 1615 01:37:16.492 --> 01:37:19.358 I mean, I'm more sentimental 1616 01:37:19.358 --> 01:37:22.572 and I thought that things can be changed 1617 01:37:22.572 --> 01:37:24.269 but after I saw him, 1618 01:37:24.269 --> 01:37:28.436 I found him beaten near the car in November of 1990, 1619 01:37:30.003 --> 01:37:31.076 I said, he was, 1620 01:37:31.076 --> 01:37:35.168 he had blood all over his body, and swollen. 1621 01:37:35.168 --> 01:37:37.577 And I said to myself, "This is enough. 1622 01:37:37.577 --> 01:37:39.755 "I can't take it anymore." 1623 01:37:39.755 --> 01:37:42.744 And after he was discharged from the hospital 1624 01:37:42.744 --> 01:37:46.327 we agreed that he has to leave the country. 1625 01:37:47.389 --> 01:37:49.222 - [Paul-Anthony] Okay. 1626 01:37:50.318 --> 01:37:53.644 - [Gerald] All right, did anything happen after that? 1627 01:37:53.644 --> 01:37:56.394 - Did anything happen after that? 1628 01:38:04.129 --> 01:38:06.928 - [Interpreter] 20 people, 20 terrorists, 1629 01:38:06.928 --> 01:38:10.382 they caught her father and they kidnapped him. 1630 01:38:10.382 --> 01:38:11.215 Both. 1631 01:38:11.215 --> 01:38:12.215 - All right. 1632 01:38:16.400 --> 01:38:19.650 - And they put the knife on their neck. 1633 01:38:24.677 --> 01:38:27.427 - Her father and his friend both. 1634 01:38:35.311 --> 01:38:37.470 - [Interpreter] And they tortured him. 1635 01:38:37.470 --> 01:38:40.753 They tortured him and they told her father 1636 01:38:40.753 --> 01:38:43.321 that you are working in the government. 1637 01:38:43.321 --> 01:38:47.488 - Did they call your father by name during this time? 1638 01:39:00.006 --> 01:39:03.006 - [Gerald] Did they know who he was? 1639 01:39:08.409 --> 01:39:09.992 - She doesn't know. 1640 01:39:12.313 --> 01:39:13.146 - Okay. 1641 01:39:16.903 --> 01:39:18.505 All right. 1642 01:39:18.505 --> 01:39:21.301 I don't have anymore questions 1643 01:39:21.301 --> 01:39:23.509 but is there anything else that she thinks 1644 01:39:23.509 --> 01:39:27.676 is important that I know before we end the interview? 1645 01:39:42.476 --> 01:39:45.052 - She said, "We've been threatened. 1646 01:39:45.052 --> 01:39:46.469 "We live in fear. 1647 01:39:48.924 --> 01:39:51.809 "My father and my brother, 1648 01:39:51.809 --> 01:39:54.276 "we are threatened a lot of times. 1649 01:39:54.276 --> 01:39:56.026 "We don't feel safe." 1650 01:40:08.612 --> 01:40:12.779 - How can you express a life experience in few minutes? 1651 01:40:13.945 --> 01:40:16.362 (soft music) 1652 01:40:24.156 --> 01:40:26.942 It's impossible to imagine. 1653 01:40:26.942 --> 01:40:30.025 It's really impossible to comprehend. 1654 01:40:40.305 --> 01:40:42.638 You're taking it as a story. 1655 01:40:43.760 --> 01:40:47.677 It's one thing to tell a story about something. 1656 01:40:49.929 --> 01:40:53.512 It's a complete different thing to live it. 1657 01:41:00.290 --> 01:41:02.350 After I left there 1658 01:41:02.350 --> 01:41:06.155 I had the feeling I didn't say enough. 1659 01:41:06.155 --> 01:41:10.072 And it's really tough to present in a nutshell, 1660 01:41:11.333 --> 01:41:13.083 in couple of minutes, 1661 01:41:15.922 --> 01:41:19.089 what you went through for half a life. 1662 01:41:30.092 --> 01:41:32.218 Americans take everything for granted. 1663 01:41:32.218 --> 01:41:35.403 They have no clue what's out there. 1664 01:41:35.403 --> 01:41:38.828 And when I'm saying "out there," 1665 01:41:38.828 --> 01:41:40.383 not only communists. 1666 01:41:40.383 --> 01:41:41.216 What's out there? 1667 01:41:41.216 --> 01:41:43.133 The rest of the planet! 1668 01:41:44.261 --> 01:41:47.094 But then again, with this in mind, 1669 01:41:51.726 --> 01:41:55.614 I have to think, "Hey, wait a minute. 1670 01:41:55.614 --> 01:41:59.614 "It's still the best thing that's in this world. 1671 01:42:02.393 --> 01:42:06.143 "It's still the utmost society in the world." 1672 01:42:09.109 --> 01:42:12.068 - [Voiceover] And why is that? (soft music) 1673 01:42:12.068 --> 01:42:15.401 - Because indeed everything is possible. 1674 01:42:17.080 --> 01:42:20.913 And I think only of what I did in seven years. 1675 01:42:29.015 --> 01:42:31.515 From nothing to a decent life. 1676 01:42:34.845 --> 01:42:36.637 Seven short years. 1677 01:42:36.637 --> 01:42:38.403 If you consider that, you can do this. 1678 01:42:38.403 --> 01:42:42.752 Or you just can't achieve this in a lifetime anywhere else. 1679 01:42:42.752 --> 01:42:44.519 It's possible you can achieve this 1680 01:42:44.519 --> 01:42:48.019 but it takes a lot of work, and hard work. 1681 01:42:51.937 --> 01:42:54.936 I think I came to the right place. 1682 01:42:54.936 --> 01:42:58.186 Because once again thinking of Romania, 1683 01:43:00.822 --> 01:43:02.239 I know for a fact 1684 01:43:06.481 --> 01:43:09.481 I had to leave there no matter what. 1685 01:43:11.193 --> 01:43:13.245 So I think I made the right choice. 1686 01:43:13.245 --> 01:43:16.078 Hopefully they will prove me right 1687 01:43:18.495 --> 01:43:20.495 and in one week from now 1688 01:43:23.284 --> 01:43:26.534 I will be able to say I am a happy man. 1689 01:43:42.837 --> 01:43:46.504 (speaking foreign language) 1690 01:44:11.491 --> 01:44:13.282 - [Man] Yeah no problem, she knows. 1691 01:44:13.282 --> 01:44:14.699 Go ahead, go now. 1692 01:44:15.917 --> 01:44:16.789 She knows, Sofie. 1693 01:44:16.789 --> 01:44:17.872 She likes it. 1694 01:44:24.396 --> 01:44:28.063 (speaking foreign language) 1695 01:44:53.876 --> 01:44:55.258 - Hi. 1696 01:44:55.258 --> 01:44:58.620 I have an appointment (mumbles). 1697 01:44:58.620 --> 01:45:01.037 - Okay, let me check you bag. 1698 01:45:04.656 --> 01:45:05.785 Okay. 1699 01:45:05.785 --> 01:45:08.513 Take your paper and your ID to the window over there. 1700 01:45:08.513 --> 01:45:09.346 - [Cristian] Okay. 1701 01:45:09.346 --> 01:45:12.275 - To the window on the left. 1702 01:45:12.275 --> 01:45:16.192 (people speaking indistinctly) 1703 01:45:20.230 --> 01:45:22.961 - [Woman Behind Window] Have a seat and you'll be called. 1704 01:45:22.961 --> 01:45:23.961 - Thank you. 1705 01:45:25.149 --> 01:45:28.482 (door opens and closes) 1706 01:46:01.856 --> 01:46:03.108 (door opens) 1707 01:46:03.108 --> 01:46:04.608 - Cristian Jigman? 1708 01:46:08.244 --> 01:46:09.827 Hi, good afternoon. 1709 01:46:17.578 --> 01:46:20.322 The Service has been unable to come to a decision 1710 01:46:20.322 --> 01:46:21.884 regarding your case, 1711 01:46:21.884 --> 01:46:24.909 so your file has been referred to an immigration judge. 1712 01:46:24.909 --> 01:46:27.637 But that does not mean that the case has been denied. 1713 01:46:27.637 --> 01:46:28.863 It means that this office 1714 01:46:28.863 --> 01:46:29.696 was unable to come to a decision regarding your case. 1715 01:46:29.696 --> 01:46:30.529 - [Paul-Anthony] When I first heard him 1716 01:46:30.529 --> 01:46:32.679 I was thinking it would have been a grant, 1717 01:46:32.679 --> 01:46:35.060 but under country conditions, 1718 01:46:35.060 --> 01:46:36.916 the country condition basically tipped the scales 1719 01:46:36.916 --> 01:46:38.499 towards a referral. 1720 01:46:40.636 --> 01:46:42.942 The Constitution of Romania pretty much 1721 01:46:42.942 --> 01:46:45.230 provides for freedom of assembly 1722 01:46:45.230 --> 01:46:49.270 and that right is pretty much respected and practiced. 1723 01:46:49.270 --> 01:46:51.904 The authorities in that country pretty much allow 1724 01:46:51.904 --> 01:46:55.818 free speech and political opinions to happen. 1725 01:46:55.818 --> 01:46:59.177 And he didn't present evidence to convince me 1726 01:46:59.177 --> 01:47:02.687 that he was, like, a big superstar in his endeavors. 1727 01:47:02.687 --> 01:47:05.195 And he's been away for seven years. 1728 01:47:05.195 --> 01:47:07.445 He may have been forgotten. 1729 01:47:44.341 --> 01:47:46.924 - Allatente, window two please. 1730 01:47:54.591 --> 01:47:58.758 - [Voiceover] Nora Orianna, window number six, please. 1731 01:48:06.307 --> 01:48:07.437 - [Woman Behind Window] Hi, good afternoon. 1732 01:48:07.437 --> 01:48:08.895 Hello, hi. 1733 01:48:08.895 --> 01:48:10.134 Farida? 1734 01:48:10.134 --> 01:48:10.967 - Yes. 1735 01:48:10.967 --> 01:48:12.103 - [Woman Behind Window] Do you have ID, ma'am? 1736 01:48:12.103 --> 01:48:14.186 - [Man] Passport, please? 1737 01:48:23.662 --> 01:48:26.325 - [Woman Behind Window] Okay, thank you. 1738 01:48:26.325 --> 01:48:28.653 - [Man] Sofie, come here, Sofie! 1739 01:48:28.653 --> 01:48:29.626 - [Woman Behind Window] Okay, here you go, ma'am. 1740 01:48:29.626 --> 01:48:31.691 Thanks very much. 1741 01:48:31.691 --> 01:48:34.426 The Service has been unable to come to a decision 1742 01:48:34.426 --> 01:48:36.753 regarding the case so the file has been referred 1743 01:48:36.753 --> 01:48:38.578 to an immigration judge. 1744 01:48:38.578 --> 01:48:39.411 - All right. 1745 01:48:39.411 --> 01:48:40.430 - [Woman Behind Window] This is not a denial 1746 01:48:40.430 --> 01:48:41.296 of the asylum claim. 1747 01:48:41.296 --> 01:48:44.081 It's the opportunity for you to present your case again 1748 01:48:44.081 --> 01:48:45.224 to the judge and the judge 1749 01:48:45.224 --> 01:48:47.314 will be making the final decision. 1750 01:48:47.314 --> 01:48:48.847 - All right, okay. 1751 01:48:48.847 --> 01:48:49.680 All right. 1752 01:48:52.826 --> 01:48:57.185 (speaking foreign language) 1753 01:48:57.185 --> 01:48:59.095 - I think that the woman's telling the truth 1754 01:48:59.095 --> 01:49:02.453 and I think that Algeria is a dangerous place, 1755 01:49:02.453 --> 01:49:06.537 but she didn't establish a well-founded fear 1756 01:49:06.537 --> 01:49:08.870 of future persecution to me. 1757 01:49:10.047 --> 01:49:14.797 She had lived there for a significant length of time 1758 01:49:14.797 --> 01:49:17.472 since her last trouble. 1759 01:49:17.472 --> 01:49:21.797 There was confusion over dates, which I couldn't get past. 1760 01:49:21.797 --> 01:49:24.464 And basically I just didn't feel 1761 01:49:26.715 --> 01:49:29.473 that she established a well-founded fear. 1762 01:49:29.473 --> 01:49:33.223 That combined with a lack of past persecution 1763 01:49:35.281 --> 01:49:37.198 made me refer the case. 1764 01:49:38.875 --> 01:49:42.792 (people speaking indistinctly) 1765 01:50:08.865 --> 01:50:10.954 - Sofie, come here, please! 1766 01:50:10.954 --> 01:50:11.787 Sofie! 1767 01:50:39.307 --> 01:50:40.909 - When you have a lady, you know, 1768 01:50:40.909 --> 01:50:43.542 who's had a hard time and she's got little kids 1769 01:50:43.542 --> 01:50:45.630 and about to have more little kids 1770 01:50:45.630 --> 01:50:49.281 and all she's trying to do is be safe, 1771 01:50:49.281 --> 01:50:52.864 when you deny her a possibility to be safe, 1772 01:50:54.881 --> 01:50:59.033 regardless of whether you did it for good cause or not, 1773 01:50:59.033 --> 01:51:02.516 I mean, how can you help but feel bad about it? 1774 01:51:02.516 --> 01:51:03.933 I feel like shit. 1775 01:51:07.554 --> 01:51:09.100 - [Man] This way, this way Sofie. 1776 01:51:09.100 --> 01:51:12.767 (speaking foreign language) 1777 01:51:16.108 --> 01:51:20.275 - I just didn't see what she's got to be afraid of 1778 01:51:23.298 --> 01:51:26.487 above and beyond what every poor soul 1779 01:51:26.487 --> 01:51:28.772 who lives in Algeria has to be afraid of, 1780 01:51:28.772 --> 01:51:31.293 which is a lot of, you know, 1781 01:51:31.293 --> 01:51:34.710 civil strife and violence and wickedness. 1782 01:51:36.671 --> 01:51:40.838 But I'm, you know, as happy as I can be about the decision. 1783 01:51:44.111 --> 01:51:45.490 Which is not very happy. 1784 01:51:45.490 --> 01:51:49.032 I don't like making such decisions. 1785 01:51:49.032 --> 01:51:51.115 Turn that damn thing off. 1786 01:51:52.125 --> 01:51:54.542 (soft music) 1787 01:53:09.025 --> 01:53:12.942 (people speaking indistinctly) 1788 01:53:15.995 --> 01:53:18.412 - Yep, I've got a second one. 1789 01:53:20.650 --> 01:53:22.983 It's a Chinese case, anyway. 1790 01:53:23.918 --> 01:53:26.441 It's all thick and nasty. 1791 01:53:26.441 --> 01:53:29.591 Oh and they put in a new application (mumbles). 1792 01:53:29.591 --> 01:53:30.533 The thing that irritates me 1793 01:53:30.533 --> 01:53:33.783 is I didn't get my first case til 9:30. 1794 01:53:39.559 --> 01:53:43.726 ♫ Smile and be happy ♫ 1795 01:53:45.610 --> 01:53:48.027 (soft music) 1796 01:53:53.882 --> 01:53:56.382 - What are you sending me now? 1797 01:54:00.326 --> 01:54:01.159 No. 1798 01:54:06.160 --> 01:54:07.410 Going to China. 1799 01:54:10.835 --> 01:54:13.585 Well, once again into the breech. 1800 01:54:36.714 --> 01:54:38.631 - [Martha-Louise] Xiao? 1801 01:54:49.581 --> 01:54:51.081 - Xiu Xiang Zhung? 1802 01:54:53.124 --> 01:54:55.041 Zhung is the last name. 1803 01:54:58.132 --> 01:55:02.308 (speaking foreign language) 1804 01:55:02.308 --> 01:55:03.641 Yes, that's him. 1805 01:55:38.921 --> 01:55:43.088 - [Voiceover] Shao Po and his family were granted asylum. 1806 01:55:45.570 --> 01:55:49.487 Farida had twins and named them Kevin and Tina. 1807 01:55:50.992 --> 01:55:53.031 Both she and Cristian Jigman 1808 01:55:53.031 --> 01:55:55.864 had court dates set for next year. 1809 01:56:00.411 --> 01:56:02.599 - [Peter] How many Anglicans do you know 1810 01:56:02.599 --> 01:56:04.022 don't know that the Archbishop of Canterbury's 1811 01:56:04.022 --> 01:56:06.689 the head of the Anglican Church? 1812 01:56:25.760 --> 01:56:28.068 - [Gerald] I am humbled. 1813 01:56:28.068 --> 01:56:29.068 What a life. 1814 01:56:50.282 --> 01:56:52.284 - [Wally] She may have had a well-founded fear in 1983 1815 01:56:52.284 --> 01:56:54.834 but what does she have now? 1816 01:56:54.834 --> 01:56:58.667 - [Larry] Well now it's almost 14 years later. 1817 01:57:17.296 --> 01:57:19.914 - [Gerald] And then you read somebody's file like that 1818 01:57:19.914 --> 01:57:24.081 and you remember just really how important what we do is. 1819 01:57:39.042 --> 01:57:41.272 - [Voiceover] Since we began this film 1820 01:57:41.272 --> 01:57:43.193 Congress has passed legislation 1821 01:57:43.193 --> 01:57:47.386 to reduce the number of people who can apply for asylum, 1822 01:57:47.386 --> 01:57:51.660 to jail people who arrive at our borders requesting asylum, 1823 01:57:51.660 --> 01:57:55.410 and to limit the rights to appeal a decision. 1824 01:58:09.897 --> 01:58:12.397 (soft music)