(people speaking indistinctly)
(soft music)
- [Voiceover] Can you tell me when it all began?
Can you just go back to the beginning?
- [Voiceover] Do you remember what you were doing in 1975?
How old were you in 1975?
- [Voiceover] How do you think they found out about you?
- [Voiceover] Did he use his own passport?
How'd he get to Paris?
- [Voiceover] When was the last time you saw your wife?
- [Voiceover] Where were you and what were you doing
when you were arrested, sir?
- [Voiceover] You said you were tortured.
What do you mean by tortured?
- [Voiceover] Tell me once again, sir,
what you're afraid of.
- [Voiceover] A supervisor came up to me.
After I discussed the case with him
I told him what my decision was and he said,
"How are you gonna feel if this guy goes back
"and somebody puts a bullet in his head?"
And I said, "I'm gonna feel terrible about it, obviously,
"but I have to make a decision and I have to live with it.
"That's what this job is about.
"You make a decision about people's futures."
(somber music)
- Okay, well what he's saying
that when after his work, he entered the cafe
where the youngsters from one of these nationalistic groups
were having their meeting.
From his appearance
they immediately recognized him as a Jew,
so they followed him and they beated him.
Basically the beating occurred in the lobby
without any witnesses.
- [Kevin] Mmm hmm.
- Yeah, he really feared at that point for his life
but it was at that point too late
and he didn't manage to escape from them.
- [Kevin] And so you got up and you walked away?
- Yeah, it was October and it was pretty cold
so he left to the, you know, to the hold, to the vestibule,
and he wanted to check his coat
because he left his coat, you know, in the cloakroom,
and at that point they approached him.
- [Kevin] And was there somebody in the coatroom?
- [Woman] There was an old lady.
He told already.
- [Woman] Yes, yes.
- [Kevin] But now you tell me that there are no witnesses.
I mean, and if the attack occurred--
- Except for her.
- Yeah, the lady.
- It was a working day and it was night
so there was no one there.
- [Kevin] Okay.
- My difficulties start after they officially
knew that I'm a member of the Anglican Church.
My husband was stopped on street one night when he came home
and he was severely beaten.
- [Peter] When was this?
- In November.
- [Peter] Of '96?
- Of '96, yes.
And he was told, and he was told, and he was told that,
he was told in his face,
when he run, because he managed to run.
He defend himself and he managed to run.
Otherwise he would have been more severely beaten.
And he was told that because he was beaten because of me
it was an advertisement given to me
and if I were return in Romania,
I will be raped and he will be killed.
After that, my house was searched
and also they wrote on my walls,
"Out you Anglican."
- [Peter] Okay.
And at what point did you inform them
that you were Anglican?
- I didn't show them any paper.
I was not supposed to do that,
to show them papers that I'm Anglican, that I was received--
- [Peter] Oh was it like casual conversation?
- Yes it was.
You asked me when it was a first time.
They have found exactly and officially that I'm Anglican.
- [Peter] How did they find that out?
- We'll get to that point.
After my bags were--
- [Man In Suit] Answer the questions.
- [Peter] This is my interview, not yours, okay?
How did you,
don't worry she's not antagonizing me.
Don't worry about it.
- [Man In Suit] Okay, all right.
- Just want to backtrack a little bit.
One thing I wanted to ask you before and I forgot.
What are the sacraments that the Anglican Church recognizes?
- It's holy communion and the holy trinity.
(woman chuckles)
- [Peter] In what language was the Anglican service?
- [Ana Marie] In English.
- [Peter] Conducted in Romania?
- [Ana Marie] In English.
- [Peter] Who is the head of the Anglican Church?
- The head of the Anglican Church in Romania is--
- [Peter] Overall.
- Overall, it's a bishop.
Bishop of Gibraltar, he's called.
Now he's Bishop John of Gibraltar.
- [Voiceover] Sue Chan, window four.
- [Voiceover] Do you understand English?
- How do you say this name, Carlos?
Shang?
- Okay, Shang Chiao.
Says C-H.
Chiao Chang.
- Chiao Chang.
- [Carlos] Shang Chiao Chang.
- Cheryl Shian Chang.
Cheryl Chian Chen.
Window two, please.
- [Voiceover] Edwin Papranni, window five.
- Hey that was good, at least it got them off.
- [Voiceover] If you're an asylum applicant,
two weeks after you see an asylum officer
you come back in the afternoon for the decision.
(soft music)
Congratulations on a recommended approval
means you're on the road the to a green card,
the right to apply for citizenship,
the chance to become an American.
- Hi, sir.
Do you have ID?
- [Man] Yeah, license and passport.
- That's good.
License is good.
(mumbles)
You speak English, right?
Okay, sir.
The office has been unable to come to decision on your case.
The case has been referred to the immigration judge.
This is not a denial of your case.
- [Voiceover] If the answer is no,
if the asylum officer has decided
to deny your request for asylum,
you'll be told that the office has been unable
to come to a decision and that your case has been referred.
- [Woman Behind Window] And you're going to have to
sign it for your two kids, sir.
- [Voiceover] You do get a second chance to tell your story
in what used to be called a deportation hearing.
And if your case is turned down there
the judge declares immediately when and how
you must leave the country.
- [Woman Behind Window] This is for the judge.
Here you go, sir.
- [Voiceover] Only one in five cases are reversed in court,
so in practical terms the decision is made here.
- [Woman In Floral Dress] Ana Marie Motay.
Window number six, please.
Hi, you have ID?
- Yes.
- Boris Mintally.
Window two, please.
Hi, good afternoon, sir.
Is this you?
Are you Boris?
- Yeah.
- [Woman In Floral Dress] The Service has not made
a decision on her case,
so her case is still pending with the Service.
But she has been referred to immigration judge
for further consideration of her case.
The judge will also make the final determination
on the application.
Okay, any questions?
- No.
I don't really have--
- [Man] I don't think I have any questions.
- [Woman In Floral Dress] Okay, that's it.
- [Man] Okay.
- [Woman In Floral Dress] Good luck with the judge.
- [Man] Thank you.
- [Peter] You know, I can understand
her desire to stay here.
She could make a much better life for herself here,
but that's not grounds for asylum.
A lot of people would like to come here
and better their lives,
but it's not grounds for asylum.
- [Ana Marie] What did this officer want?
They want somebody to cry, to beg them?
To fall on their knees?
- How many Anglicans do you know
don't know that the Archbishop of Cantebury's
the head of the Anglican Church?
And how many Anglicans do you know
don't know the sacraments in the Anglican Church?
If she claims that she went there every week
and took communion?
- Do you have ID, sir?
Here you go.
Thank you.
It's okay.
(woman chuckles)
The Service is recommending that your case be approved
so congratulations to you.
(soft music)
This is a recommended approval, which means, sir,
that at this point your background is being checked.
So once we get your fingerprints back
then the case will be granted and you'll be notified.
We'll send your letter in the mail, okay?
Okay, I just need for you to sign the letter, sir.
- [Kevin] Well I granted him.
It's not like anybody with that claim
is going to get granted asylum.
There are a lot of people who come in here
who allege that they've been beaten and targeted or whatever
because they're Jewish
and they're living in the Soviet Union
or the former Soviet Union.
There are a lot of those cases that are fabricated, though.
I mean, that's my opinion.
- [Woman Behind Window] Congratulations!
- I mean, there were inconsistencies in his claim.
So in his case I overlooked some of them.
And it's funny.
Sometimes the cases that are real,
that aren't fabricated,
often have more inconsistencies, you know?
Usually sometimes a story that's fabricated
and that's rehearsed is gonna be tighter,
so that's kind of the irony of all of this, you know?
(people speaking indistinctly)
- [Employee Behind Window] What time is the appointment?
- This is for immigration.
Immigration.
- [Employee Behind Window] Okay, what time?
- Nine.
- [Employee Behind Window] Nine?
- Nine.
- And the lawyer's not here yet?
Mike?
Come here.
Who came in with them?
- They have an interpreter
and they were waiting on the lawyer but--
- [Employee Behind Window] They have an interpreter?
- Yeah.
- [Employee Behind Window] Who is the interpreter?
- He went on the news.
Where did he go?
- [Older Man] Nine.
- Where did he go?
- [Employee Behind Window] 'Cause he's not following me.
- Huh?
- He's not understanding me at all.
See if anybody out there speaks Russian.
Just for now.
- [Guard] Anybody speak Russian?
- [Voiceover] Mohammad Khadi?
Mohammad?
- You know this is you, right?
Peter?
- This is for me?
- Yeah, this is for you.
- [Voiceover] I'll do it as soon as I get off.
I sense a Russian.
- [Seated Employee] You're good.
- [Voiceover] Okay, give me just a minute.
- Oh my God, Roman Fovkosky.
- Well at least you can pronounce the name.
- [Peter] Could be Ukrainian, though.
From looking at it, probably is Ukrainian.
- [Voiceover] You don't have a?
Okay, what's the alien number?
- [Peter] If you're an applicant,
you play asylum officer roulette here.
(somber music)
Your chances of getting a grant depend on who you get
as much as what your claim is,
simply because, you know,
everybody's got their own threshold,
everybody has their own interpretation of the law,
everybody has their own willingness to believe
or suspend disbelief.
It's just the way the system is.
It's a human system
and that's the way human people operate.
- [Kevin] How about this, though.
When you hear a story
over and over and over again,
does that affect your decision?
- [Peter] No, no.
I still listen to 'em.
I mean, (mumbles)
this may be the one who's telling the truth.
How many hundreds of thousands times in Rwanda
did people see their families slaughtered
right in front of their eyes?
- [Kevin] Right, but I think that then
the demand for details is increased
because you've heard this story 10 other times.
- Or that are born Kenyan.
They all say the same thing.
"In such-and-such a month of such-and-such a year,
"they came to my home, they said I wasn't Mauritanian,
"they took my documents.
"They put me in a truck, they took me to a camp."
Yadda yadda yadda.
The same thing over and over and over again.
Does that mean it didn't happen?
No, because it could've happened the same way
to thousands of different people.
- Right.
So what happens?
Is it just hearing it over and over again?
You just--
- No, you hear one thing that doesn't ring true
and then you say, you know,
then something clicks and he says, "I'm a farmer."
Okay, what do you farm?
"Well, I raise rice."
How do you plant the rice?
"I throw the seeds in the water."
Uh oh.
- [Kevin] But why wouldn't ask that
probably on your first interview.
It's not that you've got experience.
You're jaded.
- Yeah, the uncomfortable cold, I'm feeling jaded.
You know, time to--
- [Kevin] What are you talking about?
- Time to go back to inspections, you know?
(employees laughing)
- You're confusing.
The (mumbles) around here used to call me the Grant King.
You know, I believe in this.
I believe in what I'm doing.
I mean, I have a real commitment to this kind of work.
And maybe at first I was more gullible, I was more naïve.
I believed everybody, you know?
I felt like I wasn't a detective.
I'm just here, I'm gonna listen to the facts,
and if the person makes out a claim,
they're gonna get asylum.
I mean, that's the way I dealt with this work.
And now, after seeing so many people who come in and have,
I mean, they have an identical story,
and that's not to discount what they're telling me
because there are a lot of people who have got
this identical story.
That doesn't mean it's not credible.
(Kevin stammers)
They're so identical, so boilerplate,
there's not even anything unique about the claims.
It makes you wonder.
And then I've had cases that I've had to,
I've granted some cases,
and I've had to revoke the asylum
because a file would come back
with difference fingerprints in it.
The person had two or three applications.
They've had different names.
And I felt like, "Jeez, man.
"I'm pretty gullible."
- This is not a moral situation.
You know, if somebody's lying because they want to stay here
that's perfectly understandable to me.
I don't think that's a good or a bad issue.
It's not like you trust somebody
and they lie to you and betray you.
It's not that sort of a situation.
I mean, to me, somebody who's in this country illegally,
it's like, if you park illegally.
Yeah, it's against the law,
but I don't think a person
who parks in the wrong parking space is a bad person.
If somebody is not telling me the truth, and I miss it,
okay, I miss it.
I'm sorry.
No, it doesn't bother me.
- [Man Walking] Hey, man.
How you doing?
Aunquee Wee?
- What's important is the person in front of me.
And that I do my job as well as I can,
never forgetting that the person in front of me
is a human being.
(somber music)
- [Kevin] Altin Legonni?
Altin Legonni?
- [Voiceover] How you been?
- [Voiceover] Good how are you?
- [Voiceover] Good, good.
- How many times were you abducted by the military?
- [A.] It was three times.
May 11th, June the 9th, and June the 12th
of 1993, '94, and '96.
- Okay.
- [A.] That was just before I left, the last one.
- Okay.
The one in 1994.
Just a minute, I've got a question here.
During this period you said you were tortured.
What do you mean by tortured?
- [A.] You know--
- No, I wasn't there.
(Martha-Louise laughs)
- [A.] See, they get a rope--
- You have to tell me what they did to you,
not to other people.
- [A.] I know, that's what I'm telling.
They have a rope hanging from the ceiling
with a can of (mumbles).
They would put, that is your two hands,
behind and cross it, then drag you up.
Your leg is not gonna touch the ground.
So your whole weight bears on that, you know.
It could but very, very painful.
You know, then they start ask you questions, you know,
trying to see if you can be cracked or broken.
- And how long did they do that to you?
- [A.] You know, they would that maybe for one hour,
release you again,
say, "Are you ready to talk--"
- They would hold you up there without touching the ground
for an hour?
- [A.] That's right, without touching the ground, yeah.
- Okay.
- [Kevin] Anyone else in the van?
- [Interpreter] Only me.
- And you were in the back?
- [Interpreter] It was the driver
and there was seat for those two guys that was sat
and me, that was was on the floor.
- [Kevin] Did they do anything else other than talk to you?
- [Interpreter] It was not the way that I speak now,
the way they did that to me.
- [Kevin] They must have stopped then.
I mean, they must have stopped the van.
- [Interpreter] During two hours
that they make around (mumbles).
- [Kevin] If one was driving the van--
- [Kevin] A driver and two others?
- [Interpreter] Yeah, a driver that was in front
and then two others in the back.
- I thought originally you said there was just
the two of them and you.
- [Interpreter] The driver was in the front
and two of them with me in the back.
(soft music)
- [Kevin] I knew during, right after the interview
where I was going with that.
That young guy, he was a doctor.
Maybe I was skeptical just from reading the application.
I guess I can tell you, I mean, right?
- [Voiceover] Can we have a drum roll?
- I referred him to the immigration judge.
I found him not consistent.
There were things in there that I just,
I thought were inconsistencies.
- [Voiceover] Was his testimony inconsistent
or country conditions?
- His testimony.
There was a time when he said
he was brought by two men into a van
and drove around town for two hours,
during which he was beaten.
And then he, this is where the inconsistency was,
he said, "No, no, no.
"There was three of them.
"One was driving and two were in the back with me."
And so that was enough for me.
But, you know, that inconsistency,
again, if that was in another case
maybe I wouldn't have really hung onto it.
I may have kind of saw past it, you know?
But for some reason in his case I didn't
and that's because I found him not to be credible.
- The military picked him up,
still believed that he was a member
of some small resistance organization.
- [Martha-Louise] Mmm hmm.
- And released him.
- [Martha-Louise] Mmm hmm.
- That's inconsistent
with the government of Nigeria.
That's one time.
That happened three times.
They released each time.
He not only had a passport,
which they didn't confiscate,
which is another thing that they do with--
- [Martha-Louise] They couldn't get it.
- [James] They don't allow dissidents to leave the country,
especially the people that they suspect--
- No, I understand that, but I also, I mean.
I believe what he said, that he got the parole officer to,
not parole.
- [James] Protocol.
- Protocol officer.
- [James] Which is a member of the government--
- Yeah but you can have members of the government
who are friends of yours.
You know, everything isn't black and white.
I mean, I'm a member of the government.
Of this government.
- [James] But you don't protest
against the government of the United States.
- I would if I thought they were doing something wrong.
- [James] But then you wouldn't work for the government.
- How do you know?
(James chuckles)
- [James] Let me look through this some more.
- I mean, I'm an American citizen
and I don't like a lot of things the government does
but I think my job is to protest and change it,
not just either go with it, or you know,
say it's one way or the other.
- [James] Well that's fine
but the fact that he had a passport, but the exit staff--
- Yes.
- [James] And the B1 visa.
- [Martha-Louise] What does the B1 visa have to do with it?
He got the exit visa
to go and deliver a paper in California.
- Okay.
- [Martha-Louise] Which he said he did do.
- [James] But he did not.
He went to New Jersey.
- [Martha-Louise] Yes he did.
No, he delivered the paper, then he came up here.
- Do you have enough to show that he was in California?
- [Martha-Louise] No, he just told me--
- This was the address that he went to in New Jersey.
- [Martha-Louise] Right.
- Why would he come to New Jersey
if he was delivering a paper in California?
- [Martha-Louise] In California?
- Yes.
- [Martha-Louise] I didn't think of that.
Maybe I should have asked to see his flight to California.
I mean, his tickets to California.
But I didn't raise that issue.
- Okay.
Let me look at it a little more
but I'm having a real problem with this.
- Okay.
I understand your questions and I'm not saying I don't agree
that the questions make sense,
it's just that I believe the answers.
I think the answers are plausible.
- [James] I don't think it happened.
(soft music)
- [Voiceover] No, I've got to
pick something up (mumbles).
- [Martha-Louise] The results of the decisions here
are a little more serious than, you know,
crossing the street,
which I guess is partly why it's so incredibly stressful.
With another supervisor who didn't see things
the same way I did, who basically, my feeling was
didn't believe practically anybody
and his attitude was, "And I believe everybody."
And he may be right, I don't know.
But the point is if I could not understand
why he thought this person should be denied asylum,
I won't do it.
(people speaking indistinctly)
(phone ringing)
- [Victoria] Officers don't get a lot of time.
So tonight you review your summary
and you review your application for asylum.
Just so that you're comfortable
when you go in for your interview
and you don't get nervous about your facts.
Because even though it's your story,
sometimes under the circumstances--
- Yeah, I'm already nervous now.
- You're already nervous and you're not even there yet,
so that's why I'm telling you.
I'm starting.
Okay, I'm starting here.
Anybody that's in the United States
is going to perceive what happened to you,
if you don't explain it,
as to what would happen in the United States.
So you go to jail.
I mean, I worked before in the jails as an attorney.
I mean, it's not that bad.
I mean, it's not the nicest place in the world
but we certainly don't have mice running around,
back and forth that you can see, anyway.
And rats.
We don't have that.
I mean, they get served little sandwiches, you know?
(Victoria chuckles)
They ask for toilet paper, they get toilet paper.
I mean, it's not luxurious but it's very different.
I mean, this place had no light, right?
You didn't know whether it was day or night.
You had no light.
- [Gjergji] No.
- Nobody fed you.
They beat you up.
You had no medical care.
And, I mean, you have infected wounds from being beaten up.
I mean, you have to just focus on that in the summary.
- [Gjergji] Okay.
- [Interpreter] This is a very sharp poem.
- [Interpreter] They had started to feel he is against
the communists and he had said become too liberal.
- [Attorney] What did they tell him?
To stop writing?
(Huang chuckles)
(people speaking indistinctly) (soft music)
- I don't know where my copy is.
You have--
- I don't think I do.
- You don't have it?
Well they--
- I gave to you the original, didn't I?
No?
- Oh here it is.
Yeah, here it is.
I'm sorry.
- Okay.
- This is it, right?
- Oh yeah, I do have it?
- You have the original, I don't have the original.
- Yeah, I have the original.
- [Voiceover] Where's the applicant?
At where?
We need to see him.
(lock buzzes)
- Got it?
Got it?
- [Agent] Okay, so what happened to your friend, okay?
- Oh, he was, we were both in a pretty bad shape,
but his wounds got infected in his arm
and he was feeling that they were pretty deep.
He was seriously, seriously.
I thought he would die
if we would have been retained for more than that,
for five years, five days.
- [Agent] Did you get a medical treatment in?
- No, not at all.
We didn't even get food.
- [Agent] Either one of you, you or your friend?
- No.
- [Agent] Okay.
- [Gjergji] We didn't have any food during these days.
- [Agent] Okay, did they give you water to drink?
- Yeah, well there was a toilet over there.
(Gjergji chuckles)
They didn't serve us the water but--
- [Agent] So, you know, you just took water.
- We just made ourselves comfortable, yeah, you know.
Oh well.
(child speaking indistinctly)
I was embarrassed as hell.
- [Victoria] You were embarrassed?
- [Voiceover] Why?
- [Victoria] Well yeah, okay.
- I was, I was.
- [Victoria] Talking about the incident, you mean.
- Yeah I--
- [Victoria] Yeah I could see
that it was starting to bother you.
- I had to raise it all from my mind.
NowI have to remember all what happened.
- I mean, you didn't even tell me about the water.
- [Gjergji] I just don't want to talk about it anymore.
- Yeah, you didn't even tell me
about that's where you got your water.
- [Gjergji] Well.
- I mean, like who wants to say that after five days
they drank of a toilet.
I mean, it's not the easiest thing to discuss, right?
- Yeah.
- And that happens a lot.
Like, people don't mention certain things
that they're very embarrassed about.
But I think you did well.
I mean, you covered everything.
You know, as best you could.
- [Man With Leather Jacket] Charles?
This big thing here?
- [Man With Bowtie] Is this his?
- Yeah.
It's a family of--
- [Man With Bowtie] Two?
- Yeah.
- [Man With Bowtie] Is she a part of the case, do you know?
- [Man With Leather Jacket] Yeah, (mumbles) part of it.
- All right.
Okay, I'm going to need David and.
(Gerald groans)
I've read what he says in the application form itself
so I have an idea.
Now I'm going to skim the 30-page affidavit.
But to answer your question,
you look at the I-589 first
and then you delve into the other stuff as is your wont.
Then I call my wife and ask her what to do.
She tells me on the phone without having seen the case.
- [Voiceover] How do you like
getting this much documentation?
- I like it,
for a number of reasons.
Some of them good and some of them not so good.
Usually if there's this much documentation
it means that one of the
NGOs that knows what they're doing
has taken the case and has put a lot of research into it,
and they don't take cases which are not good cases.
So you know it's a substantive case
if you've got this much paper.
But yeah, I mean when I see paper like this,
you have two reactions.
I smile internally
but to my colleagues you've got to act like, "Oh my God.
"Look at that," you know.
'Cause everybody has to put on a show.
- [Voiceover] Now one of your colleagues
said that he worries when he gets a big pile of paper
that it's when they can't impress you with brilliance
they dazzle you with bullshit,
and that's what a pile of paper is.
- Well, it depends on the pile.
A pile of paper this big is not, in my experience,
has never been frivolous.
Now if it's a pile of paper that big,
it could very well be.
After you get over this much
I've never known it to be frivolous.
This is not frivolous.
It can't be.
- [Voiceover] Yes, yeah.
- Wow, my reaction is I am humbled.
What a life.
- [Voiceover] You seem shocked.
What was particularly--
- Oh it's just when you read something like that
you just remember how
weighty our job is here.
I mean, have you read that file?
Yeah.
It's pretty impressive, I think.
I've done this for a couple of years now
and you come to work and things are on your mind,
or you know, "Hope I get easy cases."
You know, all this stuff,
and then you read somebody's file like that
and you remember just really how important
what we do is.
(people speaking indistinctly)
(Huang speaking foreign language)
- [Gerald] My job, I think, is to establish as best I can
that the man is who he says he is
and if I do that,
if I satisfy myself that he is who he says he is,
then I think he gets asylum.
Zhang Huang?
Huang, Huang?
- [Voiceover] Is this for you?
- [Voiceover] Yes.
- [Voiceover] Do you have an interpreter or a lawyer?
- [Voiceover] No, I have (mumbles).
- [Voiceover] You have what?
- [Voiceover] I have an interpreter.
- [Voiceover] Where is he?
- [Voiceover] Just outside smoking.
- [Voiceover] Okay, you need to hold onto this
until everyone is here.
- [Gerald] Sir, can I ask you to raise your right hand?
- [Gerald] Do you promise to tell the truth?
- Yes.
- [Gerald] Thank you, all right.
Did you ever know the name of the person
who told your grandpa of your father's death?
- He said that he didn't know the particular name.
- [Gerald] Okay.
Sir, why didn't you stay in the United States
when you were here in 1993?
(people speaking indistinctly) (soft music)
- [Woman In Green] I don't know how you say this.
Gjergji Albakhumani.
Window number six, please.
Hi, sir.
So you can understand English?
- Yes.
- Okay.
I have good news for you.
You've been recommended to be approved for asylum,
meaning your interview went well.
Okay.
You will receive this copy of this letter
(mumbles) recommend approval.
Okay, right now I need you to sign a copy
that's in the file.
- [Gjergji] Okay.
- [Voiceover] Congratulations.
- Thanks!
- [Woman In Green] Okay, sir.
- Huang.
H-U-A-N-G.
Window two, please.
- [Voiceover] Can you let her know
that no decision was made on her case,
so her case is still pending with the Service.
But she has been referred to immigration judge
for further consideration.
Okay, the judge will also make the final determination
on her application.
- [Woman In Plaid] Hello!
- Hello!
- [Woman In Plaid] Okay, hi.
Hi, good afternoon.
Who's the principal applicant?
- [Interpreter] This one.
- [Woman In Plaid] Do you have ID, sir?
ID, please?
(soft music)
Thank you.
Here you go, sir.
Thank you.
- Thank you.
- [Woman In Plaid] The Service is recommending
that the case be approved, so congratulations to you.
(speaking foreign language)
- Thank you, thank you!
- [Woman In Plaid] You're welcome!
- Gladys Cruz?
Gladys Tomasa Cruz?
How are you doing today?
- Hi, I'm the interpreter.
- [Todd] Okay.
Okay, follow me, please.
(speaking foreign language)
- They took my brother's wife.
- [Interpreter] They took to a river,
which name is Salguate.
Close to that neighborhood.
- We think that because they want more information.
(Gladys crying)
- [Todd] Okay, just take your time.
- [Todd] That's okay, that's all right.
Just take your time.
- Do you have a Kleenex?
- [Todd] No, I'm out.
Here, I have some napkins if you need.
- Thank you.
- [Interpreter] They put her down.
- [Interpreter] They gave her six shots in the back.
- [Interpreter] When he escaped from that group,
he went back to the cartel, the brother.
(soft music)
(door closes)
- The guy was living in the United States for 27 years.
Decides he's going to take a little trip over the border?
(imitates buzzer)
27 are gone!
I mean, everything's here.
His family's here, everything's here.
Except for his little criminal problem,
which means that he probably knew about it
and that's why he didn't apply for,
you know, a further benefit.
He didn't have permanent residency.
He was illegal.
He could have gotten the Cuban Adjustment Act.
He could have gotten all kinds of stuff.
I will probably send somebody up there.
- [Todd] So (mumbles) case?
- Okay, it's a Salvadoran thing.
- [Larry] No case.
- 17 years military, sister's face ripped off.
Et cetera, et cetera.
Returns to town.
'89, they come to the United States.
He's still in the military til '93.
- [Larry] Yep, now here's the thing.
In '93, her nephew gets beat to death by four people.
- Okay.
- [Larry] Four men, okay?
So she's afraid to go back
because she thinks they're still being targeted.
- Now the nephew is beaten.
- [Todd] Yeah.
- They don't know who the four men are when he was beaten.
- [Todd] They don't know who the four men are.
- Okay.
The brother-in-law who was a taxi cab was shot in the back.
They don't know who shot him in the back.
- [Todd] They don't know who shot him in the back.
- The woman, the sister-in-law was murdered by the river,
face ripped off, whatever.
They don't know who killed her, either.
- [Todd] No.
- They're saying they think it my be the Guerrillas.
- [Todd] I think she did give us enough
with the events of '83.
- [Wally] What do those events pertain to?
- [Larry] That's the sister-in-law.
- The fact that, like, a day or two after the brothers
were confronted by the rebels and they escaped
and the rebels had their papers and stuff,
that the wife of one of the two men
was abducted, tortured, and killed
and that neighbors told them
that there were strangers during the wake,
there were strangers asking who the family members were
and who they were and where they were, et cetera.
- [Wally] Okay, all right.
- You have possible threats.
- That's a little bit more.
- [Todd] Similarly situated, et cetera.
- That speculation may be based on something more than,
it's not maybe mere speculation.
It may be a logical conclusion.
However, it also occurred in '83.
She left in '89.
- [Todd] No, no, no.
But that could be evidence of past persecution
is what I'm saying. (phone rings)
- Not of her, not of her.
- [Todd] If they're asking about family members
and this was a similarly situated person?
- No, it doesn't rise to the level of past persecution.
She has to know she was threatened
and specify what those threats are.
- [Todd] Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
- There's a whole line of cases,
and they're mostly Salvadoran cases in that Ninth Circuit,
like when a threat constitutes persecution.
And this one just wouldn't even come close.
- At the same time, too, we have one victim, okay?
If they had stayed there,
if we had waited for another victim,
how do we know that it wouldn't have been
one of the brothers or sisters?
- Nobody ever threatened her.
I mean, really for the threat to rise
to the level of persecution,
there'd have to have been somebody that actually
made a threat.
It could be an anonymous threat, even, but a threat.
But the fact that another member of her family suffered harm
and then the army said,
"Well their might be something going on here,"
and packed them off, that's not persecution.
I mean, you know--
- Wow.
You know, it seems to me that that's pretty harsh.
I mean, that you have to have an actual affirmative threat,
that you can't take the whole circumstances of what occurred
and feel threatened.
- [Wally] You're missing the point.
I mean, you're making a distinction here
between when it becomes persecution
and when there's a well-founded fear.
- Right.
- [Larry] I'm not saying in 1983
she didn't have a well-founded fear, possibly.
- Oh okay, okay, okay.
- But she didn't suffer persecution.
Because there was no threat!
- [Todd] Okay, okay, okay, okay.
I was see what your point is.
I was determining that she had a well-founded fear in '83.
- I'm not going to gangsay that.
She may have had a well-founded fear in 1983
but what does she have now, 14 years later?
- [Todd] Well now it's a whole different story.
(somber music)
(security wand beeping)
(people speaking indistinctly)
- Sometimes you get a case where the person has pictures
of dead bodies,
and that's of course the last thing you want to look at.
And they just give them to you and I'm like.
But I have to look at them.
So I look at them and then you're just horrified
as to what goes on in some of these countries.
And sometimes you get some of these sweet little old ladies
who are like from Russia or some of those countries
and they're just little old ladies
and they tell you stories about people beating them up
because they're Jewish.
No other reason.
And you're like, "How could someone beat on her?"
She's 70 years old, she's 60 years old.
That could be your grandmother.
How are you beating on her in the street
because she's Jewish?
And she's sitting here and she's crying
and she can't stop crying
and we're not permitted to cry.
We can't cry during interviews.
It's not a good thing.
And you can't, you know,
you want to sometimes give 'em a hug
but you can't!
You can't do it.
So you have to--
- [Kevin] I bet that's why you keep your tissues
right there, right? (Charlene laughs)
- Yes, you have to have a tissue!
- The hardest thing about this job
is the things you can never say.
I still believe that.
The things I can't even explain
because it's in my unconscious, you know.
How come I have the position I have, you know?
And I think that, you know,
about well we see a lot of fraudulent cases.
There's a lot of credibility issues.
And I think that there could be,
I repress a lot of the pain that I see in people's lives.
I go home and I don't even, I mean,
I try not to think about it
but what do I do with those feelings?
- I think you certainly become extremely cynical
and I think at some point
you don't want to take crap from people.
That you certainly don't want to do.
If you gain anything from this job it's that,
I mean in the beginning you're more reasonable,
you're more naïve,
and your grant rate's probably a lot higher,
I think, probably.
- [Kevin] What do you really think
when you get the same claim,
"Oh, I helped pull down the statue of the former dictator."
(Charlene laughs) - We've gotten a lot of those!
- [Kevin] I know that!
- I need detail, I need detail!
- [Kevin] I took part in a hunger strike.
I did this, I did that.
- You know what, we'll discuss it later.
- [Kevin] They're all the same now, you know?
(Charlene laughs)
- I know.
- [Kevin] So now what do you do?
(Kevin stammers)
- Well they have to give me detail.
- [Kevin] Right.
They can still get asylum, though.
- I granted a man that said that
but then he was also involved with other groups there
and he could answer my questions.
- [Kevin] Mmm hmm.
- He gave me detail, you know?
He was clearly educated.
So if--
- [Kevin] How about educated people?
Have a special place in your heart
for people with education? (Charlene laughs)
- No!
But they can give me more information.
- [Kevin] Yeah.
- But if you lived it, you can give me the answers, too.
- When I get somebody from China who I know is a PhD
I'm much more generous with them
than I am from some guy who I may think is cookin'
in the back of some kitchen.
(Charlene laughs)
And it's not because, I mean,
that's not how I'm thinking, either.
But I'm thinking that, "Oh, this person is very articulate.
"Their claim is very--"
- [Charlene] Well of course.
It makes it easier to understand it.
And if they can answer your questions
without you repeating the question
and rephrasing the question three and four times,
it makes it easier.
- Right, but sometimes I wonder if that is, am I--
- [Charlene] No, basic--
- Am I sympathetic because I can identify
with this educated person, whereas if--
- [Charlene] No, it's not.
It's because, first of all, when you ask them the question
they have to establish their case.
- It's very,
how do you decide
whether someone's telling the truth or not?
It's not simple
and you're never sure.
That's the problem.
If you are pretty sure that it's not the truth,
that's at least a comfortable position to be in,
in that you know that you're making the decision
based on something that's real.
But in a case like this where it's just plain fuzzy,
I have to talk to somebody else about it.
To get another persepctive.
- [Voiceover] But some of these (mumbles).
- Some what?
Yes!
That's life.
I mean, it's real life we're dealing with.
Real people, real situations.
Yes, they stay fuzzy forever.
And we still have to make a decision
based on fuzziness. (Martha-Louise laughs)
(speaking foreign language)
- You really become very sensitive
to what the person has said on their application
and what they're telling you
because you know in your heart, as well as your head,
that the person sitting in front of you,
none of this happened to them.
Or it's very unlikely.
Occasionally you do have a grant, a legitimate grant.
Why did Mr. Yung leave China
back in December of '91?
- The first reason is that he's been sterilized in China.
The second reason is that in 1989
he joined the student movement.
And then he's been persecuted.
- Okay.
You didn't leave until December of '91.
What, if anything, happened to him in
four and a half years between he was sterilized
and when he left China?
- [Jim] Okay, what is he saying, please?
- Okay, after he's been sterilized
the people in the village laughed at him
because he no longer,
he no longer feels like he's being a man
because at that time very few male were sterilized.
Normally just women were sterilized.
- [Jim] Okay, so he felt some sort of shame
or he was not getting any kind of respect
because he had been sterilized?
(Yung whimpers)
- [Interpreter] He used to have more than 120 lb.
Right now he's only 95 lb.
- [Jim] Why would being sterilized make him lose weight?
- [Interpreter] He did not know.
- [Jim] The reason I ask, and I'm not a doctor,
but I know that when males are sterilized
you tend to put on some weight, I believe.
I'm just curious why he would have lost weight.
- People are actually coached, too.
I mean, they have people who help them prepare
these application and tell them what to say.
Like they tell them,
"Well you really should cry during the interview."
Not that that's really going to help them,
but they think if they cry
that that's going to get them a grant.
It's like they don't want to go home.
They want to stay here.
Sometimes you can catch them in lies
and they'll continue to lie.
- [Kevin] Right, but I think that you just kind of,
you can't really internalize that, where you're like,
"Look at this guy, lyin' to me."
- No, it's hard sometimes.
Yeah, it really bothers me when people sit here
and they just lie to me.
- [Interpreter] The next night at 7 o'clock in the evening
the public security people come.
They take him away.
- All right, so what happened?
- Okay, what is he saying, pleas?.
- [Interpreter] Okay, one of the guards
was sleeping by the door.
- [Jim] Okay what is he saying, please?
- [Interpreter] Okay there were four guards.
They were playing cards until one of--
- [Jim] Okay there were four guards.
- [Interpreter] Okay.
- [Jim] So what happened?
- Okay, he was handcuffed to the bed
but when everybody went to sleep
he wanted to open the handcuff.
- [Jim] How was he able to open the handcuffs?
- [Interpreter] He said normally the handcuff
he cannot open, a normal handcuff,
but that one is not very good.
- Okay so how did he get out of the situation?
Obviously he's sitting in front of me.
What happened?
- [Interpreter] He climbed out from the window
on the third floor.
- He climbed out of the window on the third floor?
- [Interpreter] Mmm hmm.
- Okay.
- What happened after he climbed out the window
on the third floor?
- [Interpreter] Okay, he walked
to the Shanghai train station.
- He just, he climbed out the window.
In Shanghai, largest city in China.
Climbed down from the third-floor window,
walked to the train station, bought himself a ticket,
and went to wherever he was going.
Is that correct?
I mean, nobody saw him?
- [Interpreter] Okay, nobody saw him climb down
from the window but of course when
he's walking on the street people saw him.
- [Interpreter] He say it's his luck.
- Okay.
That's for sure.
All right, what does he think would happen to him
if he went back?
- [Interpreter] Okay, he'll be fined, too.
And the issue regarding the June 4th movement
hasn't been resolved to give him further trouble.
- Mmm hmm.
Okay, just a couple more questions
and I think we'll be done.
What can I tell ya?
They try hard.
Anyway.
Just another day at the office.
- [Voiceover] Is that,
is that an unusual story?
- Usually the more common one,
and he was giving the democracy movement type.
The more common one,
especially for a birth control case,
is, "I was in a police station.
"There are five or six guys around me.
"Somehow, some way I escaped."
You know, I mean.
And they'll often say they went to the bathroom
and climbed out a window.
In fact, Frank has a very funny assessment
he wrote about that, which he later changed, of course.
But his comment was, "Police stations, fujos,
"police stations and fujos,
"consider putting bars on their bathroom windows."
But that's the more common story, you know.
"Five or six guys surrounded me.
"I was in a police station and yet lo and behold
"I got out of it."
So that's more common.
Let me see, now did I copy this?
Yeah I did.
But yeah, it was different.
It was a twist on the same tall tale, as it were.
(soft music)
- [Woman In Green] Flavi, window four.
- [Voiceover] Anton Slyku, window number six, please.
- [Woman In Green] Hi, who's Flavi?
You have ID, ma'am?
Tell her that her case has been referred
to the immigration judge.
Tell her what--
- This is maybe the 450th time
that I've interviewed a similar case.
Because I've had this experience,
I'm seeing it totally different.
Totally different story.
You sat in on one case that I had
and I made a credibility determination.
You know, well at first he said
there were two people in the van,
then he said there were three,
and then he said, you know,
and I determined that this person was incredible.
You know, aside from the horrible story,
you know, that he was detained and beaten.
And I do that every day.
And I've referred people, women,
who've told me that they were raped
and that they've been abused and they've been, you know,
and I did do it because
they didn't fall within the framework
of what it takes to get asylum.
I did it because I found that they weren't credible,
you know, and that maybe, you know,
someone who wasn't,
well, who hadn't done this enough.
And I know in the beginning, as I said earlier,
that I used to grant a whole lot more.
But, you know, after you do this for awhile
you become much more critical
and you become very, you know, aware of inconsistencies.
And I hope that's what it is, right?
I mean it could be the fact that you're just very jaded.
You know?
And how do you know where one begins and the other ends?
I mean, how do I know, you know,
if I admitted that I was jaded,
wouldn't I then be saying that I shouldn't be doing
this job anymore?
So I say that I have a more acute understanding
of credibility issues.
- What language did you translate in?
- [Man] Chinese Mandarin.
- Mandarin?
Okay.
- With the Chinese cases you have to just go for them
in terms of their credibility
and usually you can get them.
And I realize that sounds kind of sinister.
Going to get 'em!
But that's what you gotta do.
- This is the judge's copy.
Sign it also.
- It's usually not too difficult.
They're not too sophisticated.
They're basically a bunch of farmers and factory workers
and they've been basically practicing some story.
Come on, get Ed!
He wants his, come on.
Film Ed!
- I'm honored.
- [Voiceover] How many of them go back and complain
to the preparer that their story wasn't--
- None.
- [Voiceover] All that good?
- None, because the preparer's got all the cards.
I'm sure the bottom line report or threat is,
"You give me any trouble and I'll report you to Immigration,
"tell 'em that your whole claim is bogus,
"and you're gonna be on the next plane back to Beijing."
Or Fujin or wherever it is they're coming from.
And they can't speak the language,
they don't know anything about the...
legal avenues here,
so they just go along with it.
- [Jim] Yeah but don't you think they privately
laugh at us, too?
'Cause even when we, you know, do all this
and send 'em to the judge
and the judge deports 'em,
in a sense nothing happens to 'em.
Don't they, I mean, word gets around.
They gotta know that.
- [Ed] Sure it is.
If they didn't, they wouldn't be here.
- Right.
Then what's the point of them even coming here?
- Because if they don't come here, they can't get anything.
If they do come here, they might get something.
- [Jim] But they know it's the lottery
and the odds are stacked.
- Right, but have you ever bought a lottery ticket?
(people speaking indistinctly)
- [Man With Glasses] Javio?
Javett?
Javio?
- [Voiceover] What's the name?
- Javio.
- Is he calling your name?
- [Martha-Louise] Ishang?
Huang Ho?
We may be turning the applicants into cases
as opposed to human beings.
(soft music)
- [Voiceover] Mr. Juan Carlos?
- [Martha-Louise] Everybody does it.
You know, once you start hearing things that sound the same,
I mean we used to say that it was easy
when we had the Chinese cases
because none of them were telling the truth.
It's all made up.
Well yeah, I've had a lot of cases
where people have told me things
that I have figured out are not true,
who are Chinese,
but I've also had an awful lot of Chinese
who have applied for asylum
that have told me things that are true.
So I can't believe that everybody who tells the truth
comes to me.
(Martha-Louise laughs)
- [Kevin] I think a lot of cases are actually great.
It's just hard sometimes bringing out the testimony,
you know?
I mean the most skeletal application for asylum,
it could be like lots of great stuff
in three inches of, like, bullshit.
- [Rob] Okay, but how old were you?
Give me a figure.
- [Interpreter] 11, 12 years old.
There was a crowd.
- [Rob] One day I had a guy who just had a
just boilerplate one-child policy case.
I mean it couldn't have been more boilerplate.
And of course nothing like that ever happens
and he didn't know anything
about what was on the application.
And for some reason we start talking about religion.
He said he was a Catholic, you know,
and then I ask him questions about that
and then there was all this stuff that came out
and then he produced a wanted notice,
you know, from his pocket.
This crumbled up thing.
I had it analyzed here and elsewhere, okay,
and it was the real thing.
I mean, he actually had mass in his house,
and you know, he would invite priests in
and he had been targeted a number of times.
And I said, "Why didn't you tell me this?"
"Well this is just what the preparers told me to do,
"to come and tell you that I was married and had kids."
You know? (soft music)
It's a great case.
So you learn as you go.
That's the great part about this
is you don't know what's walking through the door.
- This one isn't graded (mumbles).
(people speaking indistinctly)
- I don't know what would have happened if I remain
but I knew I had to get out of there.
- [Voiceover] Mr. Saab?
(speaking foreign language)
- I came here, I applied for political asylum,
and finally after almost seven years
I have an interview scheduled.
By training I'm an engineer.
I'm a mechanical engineer by training.
Obviously the first one, one and half years maybe
I tried to find a job as an engineer.
Nobody would look at me.
No American experience,
you have no clue what engineering is like in this country,
why would we hire you?
So I took the oddest jobs--
- [Voiceover] Like?
- I wrapped flyers for the weekend issues of the Times
or of the New York whatever, Post, or Daily News.
I wrapped those flyers and put them in a plastic bag
and distributed them.
Obviously I was in construction,
like unqualified worker.
My wife was cleaning.
You name it, I think I've done it.
- Did you turn in your slips?
- [Cristian] Yes.
Hi.
- You nervous?
(woman chuckles)
- You could say that.
- [Woman With Glasses] You ready for this?
- [Cristian] I'm ready for this for seven years.
- [Woman With Glasses] Did you bring the translations?
- [Cristian] Yes.
(soft music)
What if my asylum case is denied?
What if I'm sent back there?
Seven years I started from zero.
I got to a point where actually I'm giving.
And all of a sudden I'm facing this possibility.
Hey, we don't care.
You can start all over again.
But seven years may be my best years.
Who knows?
- [Voiceover] Farida Fulta?
- [Gerald] Oh Jesus.
If there's ever been a country
that'll bring tears to your eyes, that's it.
Any case from Algeria you have to take seriously
because it's such a dangerous, you know, volatile place.
I think that everybody in the country's in danger.
And to me the whole thing hinges
on whether her family has been singled out.
(people speaking indistinctly)
Farida Ali Latane?
What I want to do is to talk to you for awhile
about why you're seeking asylum
and understand your story as best I can.
You should feel free to talk to me.
Nothing that you say will go back to your government.
- [Gerald] What's she talking about?
- [Interpreter] She is saying we come from a family that--
- Okay, I'm going to talk to her about it.
Right now I'm just trying to explain what's going to happen.
There are a couple of things that I'm going to understand
about the written testimony, ma'am.
Here it says,
"On or about July 1996 I was on the beach with my daughter.
"Two bombs exploded, killing and wounding several people.
"Our neighbor."
- [Woman In Blue] That was my (mumbles).
- Okay, what's the rest of it?
- [Interpreter] She was with her father, and her daughter,
her mother, and her aunt on the beach
and as soon as they just passed by--
- [Farida] Just five minutes.
- [Interpreter] Two bombs exploded,
just like five minutes after she passed the area.
- [Gerald] All right.
- [Paul-Anthony] Now why are you applying for asylum?
(Cristian sighs)
- I was very active politically.
I do believe that because of that
I'm targeted by ex-communists,
ex-(mumbles) people,
that don't like, didn't like what I did,
what I said, my deeds.
They are out to get me.
- [Paul-Anthony] 'Kay, were you a member of any groups
or organizations in your home country?
- Political organization, yes.
I was member of the Liberal National,
or National Liberal Party.
- [Paul-Anthony] And when did you join that group?
- Actually I was a co-founder of the party
immediately after the '89 revolution.
- [Paul-Anthony] Did you have any other title or position?
- Yeah, I was vice president.
I would say within a few weeks
we were quickly over 1,000 members.
At that point, I mean it was two, three weeks,
one month after the revolution.
Everybody was excited, everybody was like,
"Hey, democracy's here.
"We are free, we can do whatever we want.
"We can express our views."
- [Gerald] When were you married, ma'am?
(women chuckle)
- [Interpreter] Differences in language.
Which year?
- January?
- January. (phone rings)
- [Interpreter] January?
- Yeah, January.
- January '94.
It's just different company
so there is some differences sometimes.
- I turned it off.
I thought it was off.
I'm sorry.
- It's all right.
Are you okay, ma'am?
- [Woman In Blue] I'm fine.
I will just--
- It's all right.
- The problem is she speaks French, too,
and every once in awhile she'll throw in a French word
and she doesn't speak any.
- [Interpreter] See sometimes she says
French word, French words.
- We're gonna take our time and we're gonna do
what we need to do to do this right, okay?
It's because it's hard enough to concentrate on them.
That's why I don't want you talking.
If there's a big mistake, let me know,
'cause I want to do it right rather than be happy over here.
- [Woman In Blue] Okay.
- [Interpreter] It's just she forgets
and she talks to me in French and I don't know French.
- Okay now let's try it again.
When were you married?
- I paid dearly for the fact that I was too enthusiastic
when the first government changed,
when Ceausescu fell and the new government came to power.
Another government changes and you have this.
You have the same guy that killed people and was tried.
He's appointed as
not an employee but the chief
for the secret police for the western part of the country.
This tells me everything.
Now, this other guy who interrogated me,
who hit me, who beat me.
He is still in power.
- [Gerald] Okay, what was the next thing that happened?
- And then she received a telephone call.
- About that she is not wearing the veil.
- And they said if you don't wear the veil,
you're going the get killed.
You're going to die.
- Okay when did that happen?
- That was December '95.
- October?
That was October '95.
- [Interpreter] No, in '94.
- Okay, so the phone call came in October '94?
- What did she say, ma'am?
- [Interpreter] She's trying to remember.
She say, "I was pregnant, I was pregnant."
- [Interpreter] She's saying that I was, like,
five months pregnant.
- Okay, so the phone call then came in October '94, right?
- [Farida] Yeah. - [Interpreter] Yes.
- Okay.
All right, what was the next thing that happened?
- [Interpreter] She was scared to go out.
She cannot because of this phone calls.
- Mmm hmm, you say--
- [Interpreter] It's not just one.
- Well, she only told me about one.
How many phone calls did you get, ma'am?
- [Interpreter] Five phone calls.
- What I know is that
I heard, like,
what can you do with three guys?
I tried to hit back unsuccessfully.
But they said, "Hey, this is a guy that makes politics."
And, "You like to make politics?"
And they hit me, they hit me unconscious.
Because the next thing I know it was like,
I know I was in the hospital.
- I never wanted to leave the country.
I was the one who kept him.
During the Ceausescu era
when he wanted to defect several times
and I was the one who was begging him, "Let's stay here.
"Here's our place."
I mean, I'm more sentimental
and I thought that things can be changed
but after I saw him,
I found him beaten near the car in November of 1990,
I said, he was,
he had blood all over his body, and swollen.
And I said to myself, "This is enough.
"I can't take it anymore."
And after he was discharged from the hospital
we agreed that he has to leave the country.
- [Paul-Anthony] Okay.
- [Gerald] All right, did anything happen after that?
- Did anything happen after that?
- [Interpreter] 20 people, 20 terrorists,
they caught her father and they kidnapped him.
Both.
- All right.
- And they put the knife on their neck.
- Her father and his friend both.
- [Interpreter] And they tortured him.
They tortured him and they told her father
that you are working in the government.
- Did they call your father by name during this time?
- [Gerald] Did they know who he was?
- She doesn't know.
- Okay.
All right.
I don't have anymore questions
but is there anything else that she thinks
is important that I know before we end the interview?
- She said, "We've been threatened.
"We live in fear.
"My father and my brother,
"we are threatened a lot of times.
"We don't feel safe."
- How can you express a life experience in few minutes?
(soft music)
It's impossible to imagine.
It's really impossible to comprehend.
You're taking it as a story.
It's one thing to tell a story about something.
It's a complete different thing to live it.
After I left there
I had the feeling I didn't say enough.
And it's really tough to present in a nutshell,
in couple of minutes,
what you went through for half a life.
Americans take everything for granted.
They have no clue what's out there.
And when I'm saying "out there,"
not only communists.
What's out there?
The rest of the planet!
But then again, with this in mind,
I have to think, "Hey, wait a minute.
"It's still the best thing that's in this world.
"It's still the utmost society in the world."
- [Voiceover] And why is that? (soft music)
- Because indeed everything is possible.
And I think only of what I did in seven years.
From nothing to a decent life.
Seven short years.
If you consider that, you can do this.
Or you just can't achieve this in a lifetime anywhere else.
It's possible you can achieve this
but it takes a lot of work, and hard work.
I think I came to the right place.
Because once again thinking of Romania,
I know for a fact
I had to leave there no matter what.
So I think I made the right choice.
Hopefully they will prove me right
and in one week from now
I will be able to say I am a happy man.
(speaking foreign language)
- [Man] Yeah no problem, she knows.
Go ahead, go now.
She knows, Sofie.
She likes it.
(speaking foreign language)
- Hi.
I have an appointment (mumbles).
- Okay, let me check you bag.
Okay.
Take your paper and your ID to the window over there.
- [Cristian] Okay.
- To the window on the left.
(people speaking indistinctly)
- [Woman Behind Window] Have a seat and you'll be called.
- Thank you.
(door opens and closes)
(door opens)
- Cristian Jigman?
Hi, good afternoon.
The Service has been unable to come to a decision
regarding your case,
so your file has been referred to an immigration judge.
But that does not mean that the case has been denied.
It means that this office
was unable to come to a decision regarding your case.
- [Paul-Anthony] When I first heard him
I was thinking it would have been a grant,
but under country conditions,
the country condition basically tipped the scales
towards a referral.
The Constitution of Romania pretty much
provides for freedom of assembly
and that right is pretty much respected and practiced.
The authorities in that country pretty much allow
free speech and political opinions to happen.
And he didn't present evidence to convince me
that he was, like, a big superstar in his endeavors.
And he's been away for seven years.
He may have been forgotten.
- Allatente, window two please.
- [Voiceover] Nora Orianna, window number six, please.
- [Woman Behind Window] Hi, good afternoon.
Hello, hi.
Farida?
- Yes.
- [Woman Behind Window] Do you have ID, ma'am?
- [Man] Passport, please?
- [Woman Behind Window] Okay, thank you.
- [Man] Sofie, come here, Sofie!
- [Woman Behind Window] Okay, here you go, ma'am.
Thanks very much.
The Service has been unable to come to a decision
regarding the case so the file has been referred
to an immigration judge.
- All right.
- [Woman Behind Window] This is not a denial
of the asylum claim.
It's the opportunity for you to present your case again
to the judge and the judge
will be making the final decision.
- All right, okay.
All right.
(speaking foreign language)
- I think that the woman's telling the truth
and I think that Algeria is a dangerous place,
but she didn't establish a well-founded fear
of future persecution to me.
She had lived there for a significant length of time
since her last trouble.
There was confusion over dates, which I couldn't get past.
And basically I just didn't feel
that she established a well-founded fear.
That combined with a lack of past persecution
made me refer the case.
(people speaking indistinctly)
- Sofie, come here, please!
Sofie!
- When you have a lady, you know,
who's had a hard time and she's got little kids
and about to have more little kids
and all she's trying to do is be safe,
when you deny her a possibility to be safe,
regardless of whether you did it for good cause or not,
I mean, how can you help but feel bad about it?
I feel like shit.
- [Man] This way, this way Sofie.
(speaking foreign language)
- I just didn't see what she's got to be afraid of
above and beyond what every poor soul
who lives in Algeria has to be afraid of,
which is a lot of, you know,
civil strife and violence and wickedness.
But I'm, you know, as happy as I can be about the decision.
Which is not very happy.
I don't like making such decisions.
Turn that damn thing off.
(soft music)
(people speaking indistinctly)
- Yep, I've got a second one.
It's a Chinese case, anyway.
It's all thick and nasty.
Oh and they put in a new application (mumbles).
The thing that irritates me
is I didn't get my first case til 9:30.
♫ Smile and be happy ♫
(soft music)
- What are you sending me now?
No.
Going to China.
Well, once again into the breech.
- [Martha-Louise] Xiao?
- Xiu Xiang Zhung?
Zhung is the last name.
(speaking foreign language)
Yes, that's him.
- [Voiceover] Shao Po and his family were granted asylum.
Farida had twins and named them Kevin and Tina.
Both she and Cristian Jigman
had court dates set for next year.
- [Peter] How many Anglicans do you know
don't know that the Archbishop of Canterbury's
the head of the Anglican Church?
- [Gerald] I am humbled.
What a life.
- [Wally] She may have had a well-founded fear in 1983
but what does she have now?
- [Larry] Well now it's almost 14 years later.
- [Gerald] And then you read somebody's file like that
and you remember just really how important what we do is.
- [Voiceover] Since we began this film
Congress has passed legislation
to reduce the number of people who can apply for asylum,
to jail people who arrive at our borders requesting asylum,
and to limit the rights to appeal a decision.
(soft music)