WEBVTT 1 00:00:09.628 --> 00:00:14.598 (organ music) 2 00:00:31.108 --> 00:00:33.109 - [Voiceover] This tape will illustrate one way 3 00:00:33.109 --> 00:00:35.528 in which a systems-oriented therapist 4 00:00:35.528 --> 00:00:38.048 might treat a family, one of whose members 5 00:00:38.048 --> 00:00:40.959 displays psychotic symptomatology. 6 00:00:41.589 --> 00:00:44.170 The tape is based on two consultations 7 00:00:44.170 --> 00:00:46.910 that Doctor Salvador Minuchin had with a family 8 00:00:46.910 --> 00:00:48.890 being treated by Margaret Meskill, 9 00:00:48.890 --> 00:00:50.940 one of his students. 10 00:00:52.270 --> 00:00:57.270 - Okay, so, this is a 45, mid-40's couple 11 00:00:59.330 --> 00:01:02.640 in this tape, when they come in they'll be a family. 12 00:01:03.511 --> 00:01:06.371 They have lots of symptoms, you know, 13 00:01:06.371 --> 00:01:10.090 they haven't had sex in nine years, 14 00:01:10.090 --> 00:01:14.270 she keeps going into hospitals and coming out again, 15 00:01:14.270 --> 00:01:17.130 and he falls apart when she goes in and drinks. 16 00:01:17.130 --> 00:01:19.430 And parenting issues, they have a lot of trouble 17 00:01:19.430 --> 00:01:21.010 with their daughter. 18 00:01:21.010 --> 00:01:22.260 - [Voiceover] What are her symptoms 19 00:01:22.260 --> 00:01:24.101 when she goes through this? 20 00:01:25.701 --> 00:01:29.392 - I'm not around, but according to what the couple says, 21 00:01:29.932 --> 00:01:31.252 her symptoms or his? 22 00:01:31.252 --> 00:01:31.892 - [Voiceover] Hers. 23 00:01:31.892 --> 00:01:36.892 - Hers, umm, well this time she started slashing her arm. 24 00:01:38.313 --> 00:01:41.592 That seems like that isn't something she always does, 25 00:01:41.592 --> 00:01:46.592 she usually, she hears voices and starts yelling at people. 26 00:01:50.313 --> 00:01:51.783 Acts crazy. 27 00:01:51.783 --> 00:01:54.333 - [Voiceover] The way she is with you. 28 00:01:54.952 --> 00:01:58.153 She looks crazy, she sounds crazy? 29 00:01:58.153 --> 00:02:00.094 - She sounded a little off sometimes, 30 00:02:00.094 --> 00:02:03.795 but she's very high-functioning 31 00:02:05.965 --> 00:02:08.117 for a psychiatric client, you know? 32 00:02:08.117 --> 00:02:11.537 She doesn't present that way, no she presents fine. 33 00:02:11.537 --> 00:02:13.717 - [Voiceover] In making his first supervisory comments 34 00:02:13.717 --> 00:02:17.117 on the case, Doctor Minuchin responded to a segment 35 00:02:17.117 --> 00:02:20.157 of the taped session presented by the therapist 36 00:02:20.157 --> 00:02:23.617 in which Hector was angrily complaining to Angela 37 00:02:23.617 --> 00:02:26.698 about the negative effects her out-of-control behavior 38 00:02:26.698 --> 00:02:29.468 was having on him and Danielle. 39 00:02:30.087 --> 00:02:33.658 - This man had talked, 40 00:02:33.658 --> 00:02:38.658 and he had done something nice there 41 00:02:39.579 --> 00:02:44.579 saying listen, you symptoms are not psychiatric, 42 00:02:45.499 --> 00:02:48.640 your symptoms are related at me. 43 00:02:48.640 --> 00:02:53.640 He made the symptom very much interpersonal. 44 00:02:55.540 --> 00:02:57.360 - [Voiceover] Doctor Minuchin likes Hector's 45 00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:00.900 interpersonal framing of Angela's psychotic symptoms 46 00:03:00.900 --> 00:03:02.800 because it is congruent with his own 47 00:03:02.800 --> 00:03:05.410 systemic view of the family. 48 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:09.239 As a systems thinker, Doctor Minuchin sees 49 00:03:09.239 --> 00:03:12.280 the family members as inextricably interconnected 50 00:03:12.280 --> 00:03:14.159 with each other. 51 00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:18.090 He also sees their symptoms as interconnected. 52 00:03:18.820 --> 00:03:21.601 Because they are mesmerized by their symptoms, 53 00:03:21.601 --> 00:03:24.820 the family members do not see the connections. 54 00:03:24.820 --> 00:03:29.411 The task of therapy is to make the connections explicit. 55 00:03:31.481 --> 00:03:35.161 As family members explore their connections with each other 56 00:03:35.161 --> 00:03:38.001 they become empowered to activate alternative, 57 00:03:38.001 --> 00:03:41.741 more satisfying patterns of connectedness. 58 00:03:41.741 --> 00:03:45.401 The activation of these new patterns expands family members' 59 00:03:45.401 --> 00:03:47.460 experience of themselves, 60 00:03:47.460 --> 00:03:50.301 which in turn diminishes their experience 61 00:03:50.301 --> 00:03:53.630 of being at the mercy of their symptoms. 62 00:04:02.441 --> 00:04:04.621 - [Margaret] So we're in a regrouping place, 63 00:04:04.621 --> 00:04:06.940 and I wondered what, you know, 64 00:04:06.940 --> 00:04:09.000 maybe you want to start and say something about 65 00:04:09.000 --> 00:04:14.000 what your thoughts are about having Danielle join us, 66 00:04:14.081 --> 00:04:16.690 and what you want to get done. 67 00:04:16.690 --> 00:04:18.622 - [Angela] Well I thought it was necessary for Danielle 68 00:04:18.622 --> 00:04:22.502 to participate in the family therapy 69 00:04:22.502 --> 00:04:26.781 because she's having such a hard time in school. 70 00:04:26.781 --> 00:04:29.722 At the moment she's not in school. 71 00:04:29.722 --> 00:04:32.362 I don't know what to do with her now. 72 00:04:32.362 --> 00:04:35.121 I mean, in the past, Danielle and I used to butt heads 73 00:04:35.121 --> 00:04:38.382 all the time, we were constantly fighting to the point where 74 00:04:38.382 --> 00:04:40.261 the police had to come to the house. 75 00:04:40.261 --> 00:04:41.022 - [Doctor Minuchin] That much? 76 00:04:41.022 --> 00:04:43.961 - That much fighting, but that's stopped. 77 00:04:45.181 --> 00:04:48.825 Danielle and I are getting along much better, 78 00:04:50.435 --> 00:04:53.335 but I don't know what to do with her with school. 79 00:04:53.335 --> 00:04:56.815 I can't get her in school, she's having too much trouble 80 00:04:56.815 --> 00:04:59.135 in regular school. 81 00:04:59.135 --> 00:05:02.073 The main problem is that her mind races so much 82 00:05:02.073 --> 00:05:04.661 that she can't. 83 00:05:05.191 --> 00:05:09.633 - Your mother says your mind races, where does it go? 84 00:05:09.883 --> 00:05:12.363 - [Danielle] Nowhere, just can't concentrate. 85 00:05:12.363 --> 00:05:14.181 - [Voiceover] The family's assertion of a focus 86 00:05:14.181 --> 00:05:17.501 on Danielle's school problems provided Doctor Minuchin 87 00:05:17.501 --> 00:05:19.951 with his first task of the session. 88 00:05:20.351 --> 00:05:23.479 He must find a way to connect Danielle's problems 89 00:05:23.479 --> 00:05:25.689 to the parents' symptoms. 90 00:05:26.019 --> 00:05:29.700 A passing reference made by Angela to her hospitalizations 91 00:05:29.700 --> 00:05:32.019 will provide Minuchin with the opportunity 92 00:05:32.019 --> 00:05:35.179 to begin laying the foundations for the construction 93 00:05:35.179 --> 00:05:37.049 of such a connection. 94 00:05:37.599 --> 00:05:39.319 - So Danielle has gotten into the habit 95 00:05:39.319 --> 00:05:41.269 of not being in school, 96 00:05:41.269 --> 00:05:43.549 and that's why she has gotten so far behind. 97 00:05:43.549 --> 00:05:45.401 - [Doctor Minuchin] And why is that? 98 00:05:45.921 --> 00:05:47.941 How did that happen? 99 00:05:47.941 --> 00:05:50.921 How is it that Danielle did not go to school, 100 00:05:50.921 --> 00:05:52.481 and you did not know? 101 00:05:52.481 --> 00:05:55.922 - [Angela] No, she would leave the house like she was going, 102 00:05:56.322 --> 00:05:59.023 but she wasn't, and then she would come home 103 00:05:59.023 --> 00:06:01.464 at 3:00, 3:30, like she was supposed to 104 00:06:01.464 --> 00:06:03.024 at the end of the day. 105 00:06:03.024 --> 00:06:06.074 Where she went during the day, I don't know. 106 00:06:07.463 --> 00:06:08.843 - [Danielle] I was always home. 107 00:06:08.843 --> 00:06:09.864 - [Hector] She was home because you were going 108 00:06:09.864 --> 00:06:11.184 to the hospital. - [Angela] Yeah, I was going 109 00:06:11.184 --> 00:06:14.403 - [Angela] to the hospital, so I was not home 110 00:06:14.403 --> 00:06:15.694 during the day. 111 00:06:18.004 --> 00:06:22.674 And if there were days that I did decide to stay home 112 00:06:22.674 --> 00:06:25.814 she would leave, but there was one time 113 00:06:25.814 --> 00:06:28.975 when I did catch her cutting. 114 00:06:28.975 --> 00:06:31.876 And I caught her cutting again in high school. 115 00:06:31.876 --> 00:06:33.435 - She would go to Grandma's house also, 116 00:06:33.435 --> 00:06:34.084 because she had the key. 117 00:06:34.084 --> 00:06:36.044 - [Doctor Minuchin] Why did you go to the hospital? 118 00:06:36.044 --> 00:06:37.444 - Uh, hmm. 119 00:06:39.164 --> 00:06:41.338 You seem a very well put together lady. 120 00:06:41.338 --> 00:06:43.258 - Well I feel very well put together now, 121 00:06:43.258 --> 00:06:46.308 I wasn't so put together before. 122 00:06:46.648 --> 00:06:47.088 - [Doctor Minuchin] No? 123 00:06:47.088 --> 00:06:48.468 - [Angela] No. - [Doctor Minuchin] How so? 124 00:06:48.798 --> 00:06:51.787 - [Angela] I've been in and out of hospitals 125 00:06:51.787 --> 00:06:56.787 since the age of 13, and a couple of state institutions. 126 00:06:57.426 --> 00:06:58.666 - [Doctor Minuchin] Why? 127 00:06:58.666 --> 00:07:03.288 - Well, as a child I was put in by my family. 128 00:07:04.958 --> 00:07:06.109 I guess they couldn't handle me-- 129 00:07:06.109 --> 00:07:08.548 - [Doctor Minuchin] I'm surprised, you seem such 130 00:07:08.548 --> 00:07:12.029 a bright and steady lady. 131 00:07:12.029 --> 00:07:14.889 - Well, there are bright people in hospitals, too. 132 00:07:14.889 --> 00:07:17.698 I've met a lot of bright people, you know, 133 00:07:17.698 --> 00:07:21.478 it's just certain times things would happen to me. 134 00:07:22.149 --> 00:07:24.508 - [Voiceover] Doctor Minuchin will now invite family members 135 00:07:24.508 --> 00:07:26.568 to describe the events that lead up 136 00:07:26.568 --> 00:07:28.998 to Angela's hospitalizations. 137 00:07:29.568 --> 00:07:31.609 As you listen to the descriptions offered 138 00:07:31.609 --> 00:07:33.629 by the various family members, 139 00:07:33.629 --> 00:07:36.868 note the significant difference between Danielle's framing 140 00:07:36.868 --> 00:07:40.119 of the events, and her parents' framing. 141 00:07:40.449 --> 00:07:45.449 - When your mom goes to the state hospitals, 142 00:07:47.338 --> 00:07:50.240 how does she look like to you? 143 00:07:50.690 --> 00:07:51.720 - I don't know, I don't see her. 144 00:07:51.720 --> 00:07:52.391 - [Doctor Minuchin] Huh? 145 00:07:52.391 --> 00:07:53.150 - I don't see her. 146 00:07:53.150 --> 00:07:54.820 - [Doctor Minuchin] But before, 147 00:07:54.820 --> 00:07:57.610 I assume that when she goes to the hospital 148 00:07:57.610 --> 00:08:00.541 it's because she's going through (muffled) 149 00:08:00.541 --> 00:08:02.312 because how she looks. 150 00:08:02.312 --> 00:08:07.312 Now I would guess that she went to the hospital, 151 00:08:08.677 --> 00:08:10.448 is she different? 152 00:08:11.028 --> 00:08:12.119 - Sometimes. 153 00:08:12.119 --> 00:08:13.780 - [Doctor Minuchin] How different is she? 154 00:08:13.780 --> 00:08:18.250 What does she look like when she is not feeling well? 155 00:08:19.459 --> 00:08:21.279 - [Danielle] I don't know, she just gets cranky. 156 00:08:21.279 --> 00:08:22.060 - She's what? 157 00:08:22.060 --> 00:08:23.080 - [Danielle] Cranky. 158 00:08:23.080 --> 00:08:23.759 - Crabby. 159 00:08:23.759 --> 00:08:25.269 - [Danielle] When she goes to the hospital. 160 00:08:26.599 --> 00:08:29.227 Do people go to the hospital 'cause they are cranky? 161 00:08:29.227 --> 00:08:31.187 My goodness, I've been cranky. 162 00:08:31.187 --> 00:08:32.702 - [Danielle] She doesn't look sick right before she goes. 163 00:08:32.702 --> 00:08:33.302 - Huh? 164 00:08:33.302 --> 00:08:34.882 - [Danielle] She doesn't look sick before she goes. 165 00:08:34.882 --> 00:08:36.282 - She doesn't look sick? 166 00:08:36.282 --> 00:08:39.432 So she looks all just angry? 167 00:08:39.962 --> 00:08:42.343 - [Danielle] No, she just gets bitchy. 168 00:08:42.343 --> 00:08:43.482 Turns into a bitch. 169 00:08:43.482 --> 00:08:48.482 - Yeah, she looks bitchy, and she's short-tempered? 170 00:08:50.972 --> 00:08:52.843 Help me to understand. 171 00:08:52.843 --> 00:08:53.549 - I don't know. 172 00:08:53.549 --> 00:08:56.809 - I'm confused, I see your mother here, 173 00:08:58.789 --> 00:09:02.567 and she tells me some things that seem strange to me. 174 00:09:02.567 --> 00:09:07.567 I feel you don't know how you behave 175 00:09:09.697 --> 00:09:12.883 when you go, because if you come to me, 176 00:09:12.883 --> 00:09:15.603 I'm a psychiatrist, and you're like that, 177 00:09:15.603 --> 00:09:17.283 and you said you want to go to the hospital 178 00:09:17.283 --> 00:09:17.943 I would've said-- 179 00:09:17.943 --> 00:09:20.238 - Well I'm not this way when I go into the hospital. 180 00:09:20.238 --> 00:09:21.458 - So you must be different then? 181 00:09:21.458 --> 00:09:22.138 - Yes. 182 00:09:24.098 --> 00:09:26.914 - Can you tell me, or can you tell me, 183 00:09:26.914 --> 00:09:29.065 or can you both tell me different ways, 184 00:09:29.065 --> 00:09:31.803 what's happening all your life. 185 00:09:34.562 --> 00:09:37.829 - [Hector] I usually know when she's gonna go to hospital, 186 00:09:37.829 --> 00:09:41.348 'cause usually there's a shortness of temper, 187 00:09:42.528 --> 00:09:47.528 her sleeping is off, she forgets, 188 00:09:49.318 --> 00:09:50.428 she's terrible-- 189 00:09:50.428 --> 00:09:52.352 - [Angela] The voices, I hear voices. 190 00:09:52.352 --> 00:09:54.692 - Yeah, she hears voices. 191 00:09:54.692 --> 00:09:57.952 Normally she doesn't tell me, so I say, "You okay? 192 00:09:57.952 --> 00:09:59.272 "Do you hear voices?" 193 00:09:59.272 --> 00:10:00.453 And she'll say, "No, no." 194 00:10:00.453 --> 00:10:01.713 And then if she's really hearing them 195 00:10:01.713 --> 00:10:05.434 she'll be very irritable and she becomes very irritable 196 00:10:05.434 --> 00:10:08.174 and defensive if she's hearing voices. 197 00:10:08.174 --> 00:10:10.474 And then I start looking for the patterns. 198 00:10:10.474 --> 00:10:12.054 And then that's how I know she should be going. 199 00:10:12.054 --> 00:10:15.035 - [Doctor Minuchin] Does she look, honestly now, 200 00:10:15.035 --> 00:10:19.316 does she looks to you as if she is crazy? 201 00:10:19.316 --> 00:10:21.176 As if she's irrational? 202 00:10:21.176 --> 00:10:25.505 Or just she is short of temper, cranky? 203 00:10:25.715 --> 00:10:27.995 - It just looks like she's cranky. 204 00:10:27.995 --> 00:10:30.036 - Do you have two mothers? 205 00:10:30.036 --> 00:10:35.036 One that is nice, and understanding, 206 00:10:35.236 --> 00:10:39.586 and one that is bitchy, and cranky, and irrational? 207 00:10:41.456 --> 00:10:44.906 And you admit who is the irrational, 208 00:10:45.406 --> 00:10:47.347 cranky and bitchy? 209 00:10:48.598 --> 00:10:51.848 I'm asking, because I don't know. 210 00:10:52.518 --> 00:10:56.317 Because when your mother is cranky and bitchy 211 00:10:56.317 --> 00:10:59.007 she's going through pain. 212 00:11:00.017 --> 00:11:03.219 Is she a pain for you when she gets like that? 213 00:11:03.219 --> 00:11:05.998 - When she gets like that it's like, 214 00:11:05.998 --> 00:11:08.998 it's like I really have already, I already know, 215 00:11:08.998 --> 00:11:12.931 so I talk to her, I go, "Well, she's acting this way because 216 00:11:12.931 --> 00:11:15.901 "she's already going through an episode." 217 00:11:16.190 --> 00:11:17.551 - [Voiceover] While her parents portray 218 00:11:17.551 --> 00:11:20.690 Angela's hospitalizations as brought on by phenomenon 219 00:11:20.690 --> 00:11:23.771 that are crazy and beyond control, 220 00:11:23.771 --> 00:11:27.230 Danielle insists on explanations that are normalizing, 221 00:11:27.230 --> 00:11:29.390 and interpersonal. 222 00:11:29.390 --> 00:11:31.491 Minuchin's observation of this, 223 00:11:31.491 --> 00:11:33.728 as well as of Danielle's protective attitude 224 00:11:33.728 --> 00:11:37.363 toward her mother leads him to the following reframe, 225 00:11:37.363 --> 00:11:39.923 which connects Danielle's school problems 226 00:11:39.923 --> 00:11:42.204 to her parents' problems. 227 00:11:42.204 --> 00:11:43.804 - [Doctor Minuchin] Tell me something, 228 00:11:43.804 --> 00:11:47.956 so you had seen, you say you all know that she gets, 229 00:11:49.616 --> 00:11:53.776 paranoid schizophrenic, or borderline psychotic, 230 00:11:53.776 --> 00:11:55.532 or whatever term they call it. 231 00:11:55.532 --> 00:11:57.342 - [Margaret] Cranky, yeah. 232 00:11:57.342 --> 00:11:58.700 - It is cranky? 233 00:11:59.390 --> 00:12:01.402 - [Margaret] I think it's a good word. 234 00:12:01.402 --> 00:12:05.712 - Yeah, and can she hear you when she's like that? 235 00:12:07.642 --> 00:12:09.292 - [Margaret] With a fight. 236 00:12:10.082 --> 00:12:10.862 With a lot of work. 237 00:12:10.862 --> 00:12:11.715 - [Doctor Minuchin] You're a good fighter. 238 00:12:11.715 --> 00:12:14.286 - Yes, we fight well. (Angela laughing) 239 00:12:14.286 --> 00:12:16.457 - [Doctor Minuchin] Do you think that Danielle sometimes, 240 00:12:16.457 --> 00:12:19.757 do you think that Danielle's fighting 241 00:12:20.727 --> 00:12:22.298 could be useful? 242 00:12:22.298 --> 00:12:23.709 - I think so. 243 00:12:24.219 --> 00:12:26.099 - [Doctor Minuchin] Do you think that she knows 244 00:12:26.099 --> 00:12:29.148 that she was painful to mother? 245 00:12:29.818 --> 00:12:34.219 See, children do sometimes wonderful things, 246 00:12:34.219 --> 00:12:36.309 but we stop knowing. 247 00:12:40.049 --> 00:12:41.638 - Danielle was one of the reasons why 248 00:12:41.638 --> 00:12:43.158 I started turning around, 249 00:12:43.158 --> 00:12:46.518 and started trying to pull myself more together. 250 00:12:46.518 --> 00:12:48.519 - She seems very protective of you. 251 00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:49.529 - Yes. 252 00:12:50.859 --> 00:12:53.808 - Would you be a nurse? 253 00:12:56.859 --> 00:12:57.338 - A nurse? 254 00:12:57.338 --> 00:13:00.178 - Yeah, do you think? 255 00:13:00.178 --> 00:13:02.668 'Cause I think you are a nurse. 256 00:13:03.699 --> 00:13:06.679 So why you want to know if you will be a nurse. 257 00:13:06.679 --> 00:13:09.142 At this point you have only one patient. 258 00:13:10.692 --> 00:13:12.432 That is your mom. 259 00:13:16.662 --> 00:13:19.103 - [Angela] What do you mean by be a nurse? 260 00:13:19.103 --> 00:13:21.633 - Well I think she is a nurse. 261 00:13:21.633 --> 00:13:24.202 I think she could grow up to be a nurse. 262 00:13:24.202 --> 00:13:27.123 She starts training in you, 263 00:13:27.123 --> 00:13:30.223 and then maybe she will be trained on somebody else, 264 00:13:30.223 --> 00:13:34.902 or do you sometimes are protective of your dad, also? 265 00:13:36.052 --> 00:13:37.544 - I am. 266 00:13:37.544 --> 00:13:38.834 - [Doctor Minuchin] Yeah. 267 00:13:38.834 --> 00:13:43.254 So when do you feel protective toward him? 268 00:13:44.294 --> 00:13:45.092 When your mom-- 269 00:13:45.092 --> 00:13:49.010 - When I think of how stupid he's been sometimes. 270 00:13:49.010 --> 00:13:50.430 - How stupid he has been? 271 00:13:50.430 --> 00:13:51.168 - Yeah. 272 00:13:51.168 --> 00:13:52.728 - [Doctor Minuchin] In what way? 273 00:13:52.728 --> 00:13:55.584 - In letting Mommy do all that stuff she did 274 00:13:55.584 --> 00:13:57.264 right in front of him. 275 00:13:57.264 --> 00:14:00.582 And just sitting here, I think that's stupid, 276 00:14:00.582 --> 00:14:01.902 I wouldn't have done that. 277 00:14:01.902 --> 00:14:05.042 - [Doctor Minuchin] You think he should have reacted-- 278 00:14:05.042 --> 00:14:08.266 - He needs to be harder in his reaction. 279 00:14:11.645 --> 00:14:15.710 - [Doctor Minuchin] Do you think that you can help him 280 00:14:15.710 --> 00:14:20.288 to become stronger, or harsher, or more reactive? 281 00:14:20.288 --> 00:14:22.558 or more reactive? 282 00:14:23.218 --> 00:14:25.182 Have you talked with him about that? 283 00:14:25.752 --> 00:14:28.218 - I did when I used to scream and get mad, 284 00:14:28.218 --> 00:14:31.238 and I would say he's such a jerk because he lets her 285 00:14:31.238 --> 00:14:34.118 get to him, he stand right there and lets her. 286 00:14:34.118 --> 00:14:38.544 And that's what I would yell at them. 287 00:14:38.544 --> 00:14:40.898 It never did anything. 288 00:14:43.768 --> 00:14:46.618 - [Doctor Minuchin] He's a good patient or not? 289 00:14:47.768 --> 00:14:49.068 - Is he a good patient? 290 00:14:49.068 --> 00:14:50.118 - [Doctor Minuchin] Yeah. 291 00:14:50.888 --> 00:14:55.194 I think that you are an evolving psychotherapist, 292 00:14:56.714 --> 00:14:57.818 and you will be a colleague, 293 00:14:57.818 --> 00:15:00.478 that I am interested in. 294 00:15:00.478 --> 00:15:04.644 As I work with her, I am a teacher, 295 00:15:04.644 --> 00:15:07.865 or family therapist, you start early. 296 00:15:10.495 --> 00:15:11.815 - Mmm, no. 297 00:15:11.815 --> 00:15:13.159 - [Doctor Minuchin] No? Okay. 298 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:17.420 It's very nice, Danielle is a very nice person, 299 00:15:17.420 --> 00:15:18.899 and a very protective person, 300 00:15:18.899 --> 00:15:22.299 and she's had a hell of a difficult life. 301 00:15:23.719 --> 00:15:27.241 Because she had a mom that was in and out of the hospital, 302 00:15:27.241 --> 00:15:31.690 and a dad with his mystical that did not respond. 303 00:15:32.010 --> 00:15:35.583 So she tried to help both of you. 304 00:15:37.062 --> 00:15:40.448 And if you are busy, 305 00:15:40.448 --> 00:15:45.448 trying to make your mother 306 00:15:46.878 --> 00:15:48.678 a person, 307 00:15:48.678 --> 00:15:52.484 and make your father a helper, 308 00:15:52.484 --> 00:15:53.934 then I don't think that you can have 309 00:15:53.934 --> 00:15:56.804 too much energy to study. 310 00:15:59.414 --> 00:16:03.916 You have a full-time job as a nurse. 311 00:16:04.386 --> 00:16:07.725 - [Voiceover] In portraying Danielle as her parents' nurse, 312 00:16:07.725 --> 00:16:10.066 Doctor Minuchin has succeeded in connecting 313 00:16:10.066 --> 00:16:13.385 Danielle's symptoms to her parents. 314 00:16:13.385 --> 00:16:16.386 There remains the task of connecting the parents' symptoms 315 00:16:16.386 --> 00:16:18.176 to each other. 316 00:16:18.545 --> 00:16:20.025 Minuchin devotes the closing minutes 317 00:16:20.025 --> 00:16:22.835 of the session to this task. 318 00:16:23.266 --> 00:16:27.546 - [Doctor Minuchin] And besides, Misses Soriano, 319 00:16:28.996 --> 00:16:32.307 the hospital calls you with some label, 320 00:16:32.307 --> 00:16:34.688 what's the label that they gave you? 321 00:16:34.688 --> 00:16:36.704 You're really supposed to stay out of it-- 322 00:16:36.704 --> 00:16:41.704 - The label, paranoid schizophrenic, 323 00:16:44.390 --> 00:16:47.360 some kind of a behavioral-borderline thing. 324 00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:48.770 I don't know. 325 00:16:50.500 --> 00:16:52.381 - [Doctor Minuchin] Borderline, 326 00:16:52.381 --> 00:16:55.000 these are significant things. 327 00:16:55.000 --> 00:16:56.787 Paranoid schizophrenic and borderline-- 328 00:16:56.787 --> 00:16:58.087 - [Angela] Something else. 329 00:16:58.087 --> 00:16:59.086 - And something else. 330 00:16:59.086 --> 00:17:02.307 - Well border-psychotic, or something like that. 331 00:17:02.307 --> 00:17:03.936 One psychiatrist said that, too, and I looked at her, 332 00:17:03.936 --> 00:17:06.040 I said, "You gotta be..." 333 00:17:06.450 --> 00:17:07.830 - What would you say 334 00:17:07.830 --> 00:17:10.110 if you would need to, 335 00:17:11.360 --> 00:17:16.010 if you would need to describe your wife to me 336 00:17:16.790 --> 00:17:21.255 in two or three words, what would you say about her? 337 00:17:21.785 --> 00:17:22.745 - I'm sorry, I lost that. 338 00:17:22.745 --> 00:17:24.501 - If you wanted to describe your wife, 339 00:17:24.501 --> 00:17:28.081 I cannot see , and you say, "She's seated here, 340 00:17:28.081 --> 00:17:31.621 "and I hear her talking." 341 00:17:31.621 --> 00:17:35.181 She's a bright lady, and she tells me things 342 00:17:35.181 --> 00:17:38.201 that don't make sense, like how all her life 343 00:17:38.201 --> 00:17:41.601 she has been in and out of hospital, and so forth. 344 00:17:41.601 --> 00:17:43.241 I'm confused. 345 00:17:43.241 --> 00:17:46.219 So can you tell me something, or tell so that 346 00:17:46.219 --> 00:17:48.239 I will be less confused. 347 00:17:48.239 --> 00:17:51.529 Describe to me how she is with you. 348 00:17:52.179 --> 00:17:54.579 - How she is with me, as a... 349 00:17:54.579 --> 00:17:55.799 - [Doctor Minuchin] As a person. 350 00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:56.729 - As a person, she is-- 351 00:17:56.729 --> 00:17:57.769 - [Doctor Minuchin] As a wife. 352 00:17:57.769 --> 00:18:02.189 - As a wife she's attentive, she's sensitive, you know, 353 00:18:02.189 --> 00:18:05.907 she's a good listener, she's good to talk to, 354 00:18:05.907 --> 00:18:07.587 she's intelligent, so it's not like you're talking 355 00:18:07.587 --> 00:18:10.897 to a moron, so that's a blessing. 356 00:18:11.737 --> 00:18:16.737 She's organized, she thinks straight. 357 00:18:18.505 --> 00:18:22.303 I tend to be more like, "Well, let's see.' 358 00:18:22.303 --> 00:18:25.543 I tend to be like more mystical, 359 00:18:25.543 --> 00:18:27.095 now let's look at it from this angle. 360 00:18:27.095 --> 00:18:29.496 I'm just more like well this is the way it is, 361 00:18:29.496 --> 00:18:33.536 and she's more grounded. 362 00:18:33.536 --> 00:18:36.556 - If you would need to describe your husband to me, 363 00:18:36.556 --> 00:18:38.417 how would you describe, I mean, 364 00:18:38.417 --> 00:18:41.276 what I heard was how many nice things 365 00:18:41.276 --> 00:18:44.098 your husband says about you. 366 00:18:44.098 --> 00:18:46.447 How would you describe him? 367 00:18:46.898 --> 00:18:51.898 - Loving, hard-working, sensitive. 368 00:18:54.668 --> 00:18:56.597 - [Doctor Minuchin] Do you think he contributes sometimes 369 00:18:56.597 --> 00:18:59.154 to you going to the hospital? 370 00:19:04.054 --> 00:19:05.781 - Not really, no. 371 00:19:06.431 --> 00:19:07.928 - [Doctor Minuchin] You hedged then. 372 00:19:07.928 --> 00:19:12.928 - Recently it has been his drinking, 373 00:19:13.647 --> 00:19:16.108 but he's not drinking now. 374 00:19:16.108 --> 00:19:19.427 - [Doctor Minuchin] One of the things that you're proving 375 00:19:21.077 --> 00:19:26.077 can make him to look was his family. 376 00:19:29.341 --> 00:19:33.038 See, this is a family of good people. 377 00:19:33.708 --> 00:19:37.536 But some of the things that they do are not good. 378 00:19:39.496 --> 00:19:41.651 But since this is a family of good people 379 00:19:41.651 --> 00:19:46.631 that believe in love, and they believe in good things, 380 00:19:46.631 --> 00:19:51.311 they don't know how they treat each other, 381 00:19:51.311 --> 00:19:53.383 they don't know clearly. 382 00:19:53.383 --> 00:19:56.614 Because the most important thing for them 383 00:19:56.614 --> 00:19:59.564 is love and protection. 384 00:20:00.894 --> 00:20:05.894 So I think that Misses Soriano 385 00:20:07.034 --> 00:20:10.877 is sometimes triggered by her husband. 386 00:20:10.877 --> 00:20:15.696 And then Mister Soriano is sometimes, you see, 387 00:20:15.696 --> 00:20:20.696 I think in strange ways, I think that your drinking, 388 00:20:20.836 --> 00:20:24.317 it's not because you're a drunkard, 389 00:20:24.317 --> 00:20:28.637 but it has to do with stresses in the family. 390 00:20:28.637 --> 00:20:33.416 And I think that when you go to crack, 391 00:20:33.416 --> 00:20:37.857 or you go to heroin, or you go to the hospital, 392 00:20:37.857 --> 00:20:41.040 you're escaping from your husband. 393 00:20:41.040 --> 00:20:44.370 Now, I am strange guy, I think like that, 394 00:20:44.370 --> 00:20:46.310 I have strange ways of thinking. 395 00:20:46.310 --> 00:20:51.310 So, if you want to be helpful, and us talk, 396 00:20:53.818 --> 00:20:56.710 you're willing to work with these people 397 00:20:56.710 --> 00:20:59.709 in terms of what they do to each other. 398 00:21:01.189 --> 00:21:02.309 You know? 399 00:21:02.309 --> 00:21:06.631 And it will be difficult, because they don't know. 400 00:21:08.481 --> 00:21:11.673 You see, he would, 401 00:21:11.673 --> 00:21:16.673 Mister Soriano will drink to help you-- 402 00:21:16.835 --> 00:21:17.726 - Stop. 403 00:21:17.726 --> 00:21:22.726 - [Doctor Minuchin] to know, and Danielle will help, 404 00:21:23.175 --> 00:21:26.147 when Misses Soriano does something 405 00:21:26.147 --> 00:21:29.707 that kicks him off, that he does not respond. 406 00:21:30.987 --> 00:21:34.001 Danielle will know, but he will also know. 407 00:21:34.001 --> 00:21:38.500 And I think that this is a very nice family. 408 00:21:38.500 --> 00:21:42.641 I think the family is in a tough spot 409 00:21:42.641 --> 00:21:45.560 because they are new. 410 00:21:45.560 --> 00:21:49.808 He is dry, and she's out of the hospital. 411 00:21:49.808 --> 00:21:53.788 I think that you don't know how to behave 412 00:21:53.788 --> 00:21:56.691 in this spot in which you are now, 413 00:21:56.691 --> 00:22:00.391 in which you have decided that you have 414 00:22:00.391 --> 00:22:02.351 a place in this family, 415 00:22:02.351 --> 00:22:05.371 and that you will not run away from the family. 416 00:22:05.371 --> 00:22:10.371 And I don't think that you know how to relate 417 00:22:10.371 --> 00:22:15.371 with a wife as if she's healthy. 418 00:22:16.251 --> 00:22:20.611 So that when she becomes a pain in the ass. 419 00:22:20.611 --> 00:22:23.501 - That's part of the beauty of solution. 420 00:22:23.501 --> 00:22:24.617 - [Doctor Minuchin] You're sick, 421 00:22:24.617 --> 00:22:27.517 but you're a pain in the ass, you know? 422 00:22:27.517 --> 00:22:31.337 When you are a pain in the ass, he says, "You're crazy". 423 00:22:31.337 --> 00:22:34.177 Instead of saying, "Hey, wait a moment, my dear. 424 00:22:34.177 --> 00:22:36.637 "Stop that nonsense." 425 00:22:36.637 --> 00:22:41.497 And then you feel that he's not doing his job. 426 00:22:42.817 --> 00:22:46.898 You're in a new spot, okay? 427 00:22:46.898 --> 00:22:47.738 - Okay. 428 00:22:48.608 --> 00:22:50.825 - [Voiceover] By reframing Hector's drinking, 429 00:22:50.825 --> 00:22:53.746 and Angela's hospitalizations as the means 430 00:22:53.746 --> 00:22:56.045 by which they escape from each other 431 00:22:56.045 --> 00:22:59.086 in order to avoid conflict and stress, 432 00:22:59.086 --> 00:23:01.845 Minuchin has completed the therapeutic task 433 00:23:01.845 --> 00:23:04.805 of constructing a frame that connects the family members 434 00:23:04.805 --> 00:23:06.956 to each other. 435 00:23:17.785 --> 00:23:20.065 The second consultation session occurred 436 00:23:20.065 --> 00:23:22.566 three months after the first. 437 00:23:22.566 --> 00:23:24.985 Angela's individual therapist participated 438 00:23:24.985 --> 00:23:27.005 in this consultation, as well as 439 00:23:27.005 --> 00:23:29.445 in the pre-session discussion. 440 00:23:29.445 --> 00:23:32.065 - Angela was taking care of Hector, 441 00:23:32.065 --> 00:23:33.886 who had an accident, you know? 442 00:23:33.886 --> 00:23:37.645 I think people here know that he was in a car accident? 443 00:23:37.645 --> 00:23:40.345 - [Doctor Minuchin] No, I did not. 444 00:23:40.345 --> 00:23:42.107 - Okay, he was in a terrible car accident, 445 00:23:42.107 --> 00:23:45.127 and then what happened was Angela started 446 00:23:45.127 --> 00:23:46.867 taking care of him, which was a shift, 447 00:23:46.867 --> 00:23:48.406 instead of him taking care of her, 448 00:23:48.406 --> 00:23:51.067 and then she became overwhelmed by it 449 00:23:51.067 --> 00:23:53.057 and went into the hospital. 450 00:23:53.057 --> 00:23:55.964 - [Voiceover] Doctor Minuchin opened the second consultation 451 00:23:55.964 --> 00:23:57.765 by chatting with the family members 452 00:23:57.765 --> 00:24:02.005 about the affects of Hector's accident on the family's life. 453 00:24:02.005 --> 00:24:04.744 - [Doctor Minuchin] You had the accident, and everything-- 454 00:24:04.744 --> 00:24:08.004 - Everything just kind of got, well, the accident 455 00:24:08.004 --> 00:24:10.665 kind of intruded a bit. 456 00:24:10.665 --> 00:24:15.364 It disrupted things, really made an impact more on my wife, 457 00:24:15.364 --> 00:24:17.124 I think, than on me. 458 00:24:17.124 --> 00:24:17.845 - [Doctor Minuchin] How so? 459 00:24:17.845 --> 00:24:22.845 - Because she suppressed her feelings about what happened. 460 00:24:23.972 --> 00:24:26.237 - Actually it was the first time I felt that 461 00:24:26.237 --> 00:24:28.037 I had to be totally responsible, 462 00:24:28.037 --> 00:24:30.476 and had no one to fall onto. 463 00:24:30.476 --> 00:24:31.796 If things got difficult I could say, 464 00:24:31.796 --> 00:24:33.496 "Well, Hector, I can't handle it. 465 00:24:33.496 --> 00:24:35.256 "Do it for me." 466 00:24:35.256 --> 00:24:37.696 This time there was no Hector to do it for me, 467 00:24:37.696 --> 00:24:40.967 it was me doing it for myself. 468 00:24:42.097 --> 00:24:46.617 I was being super-person, and I kept on going and going, 469 00:24:46.617 --> 00:24:49.097 and just kept on doing what I had to do. 470 00:24:49.967 --> 00:24:53.253 Taking care of Danielle, taking care of Hector. 471 00:24:53.253 --> 00:24:55.914 For awhile, when Hector was very sick, 472 00:24:55.914 --> 00:24:57.953 I took care of everything. 473 00:24:57.953 --> 00:25:00.553 I was taking care of everything. 474 00:25:00.983 --> 00:25:03.063 - [Doctor Minuchin] Are you good at that? 475 00:25:03.063 --> 00:25:05.061 - I found that I was. 476 00:25:06.681 --> 00:25:10.323 - [Doctor Minuchin] Angela, I have a problem. 477 00:25:12.423 --> 00:25:14.106 And you would need to help. 478 00:25:14.106 --> 00:25:18.846 The problem is, like last time, 479 00:25:18.846 --> 00:25:23.846 that I cannot jive your competance 480 00:25:24.560 --> 00:25:26.467 with your going to the hospital. 481 00:25:26.467 --> 00:25:31.228 You see, you are a very competent lady. 482 00:25:31.228 --> 00:25:34.267 I am impressed that you're intelligent, 483 00:25:34.267 --> 00:25:39.267 and in areas of difficulty you can manage. 484 00:25:40.227 --> 00:25:43.289 And so that and the hospital just don't jive. 485 00:25:43.289 --> 00:25:46.768 - Let me put it this way. 486 00:25:51.068 --> 00:25:55.451 I'm not used to being able to function, or-- 487 00:25:55.451 --> 00:25:57.430 - [Doctor Minuchin] But you are a bright lady. 488 00:25:57.430 --> 00:26:00.610 - Just let me finish saying what I'm saying. 489 00:26:00.610 --> 00:26:04.670 I've always been told, from a very young age, I can't. 490 00:26:04.670 --> 00:26:08.930 And for a long time I believed them. 491 00:26:09.830 --> 00:26:12.068 I do have problems with voices on and off 492 00:26:12.068 --> 00:26:14.448 that really make it very difficult for me 493 00:26:14.448 --> 00:26:16.998 to function at times. 494 00:26:18.548 --> 00:26:21.186 The majority of the time I can function a lot better 495 00:26:21.186 --> 00:26:22.907 than I thought I could. 496 00:26:22.907 --> 00:26:27.112 At least I'm starting to see that in the past year or two. 497 00:26:31.743 --> 00:26:36.743 At times I really can't do a damn thing. 498 00:26:37.062 --> 00:26:42.062 I get so out of hand that I can't think straight. 499 00:26:43.802 --> 00:26:45.982 Lots of times I can't hear what other people 500 00:26:45.982 --> 00:26:50.372 are saying around me, because I'm hearing everything else. 501 00:26:51.342 --> 00:26:53.322 - [Voiceover] Angela's narrative of competence 502 00:26:53.322 --> 00:26:55.922 in the aftermath of Hector's accident, 503 00:26:55.922 --> 00:26:58.442 and the incongruity between that competence 504 00:26:58.442 --> 00:27:01.182 and her pattern of repeated hospitalization, 505 00:27:01.182 --> 00:27:04.762 has led Doctor Minuchin to focus early in this session 506 00:27:04.762 --> 00:27:07.880 on Angela's psychotic symptoms. 507 00:27:07.880 --> 00:27:10.198 Minuchin has thus entered the family 508 00:27:10.198 --> 00:27:11.898 differently during this session 509 00:27:11.898 --> 00:27:13.898 than he did during the first, 510 00:27:13.898 --> 00:27:17.578 through Angela rather than through Danielle. 511 00:27:18.198 --> 00:27:20.956 Minuchin's goal for this session is the same one 512 00:27:20.956 --> 00:27:24.476 he had for the first: namely to help family members 513 00:27:24.476 --> 00:27:27.316 explore their interconnectedness. 514 00:27:27.316 --> 00:27:30.456 However, since he has entered the family differently, 515 00:27:30.456 --> 00:27:32.896 the process by which this goal's accomplished 516 00:27:32.896 --> 00:27:35.016 will be a very different one. 517 00:27:35.016 --> 00:27:37.196 Doctor Minuchin has entered the family 518 00:27:37.196 --> 00:27:40.106 through the portal of Angela's voices. 519 00:27:40.696 --> 00:27:42.494 At this point in the session, 520 00:27:42.494 --> 00:27:46.924 the family frames these voices as belonging only to Angela. 521 00:27:47.574 --> 00:27:50.852 To pursue his goal of highlighting interconnectedness, 522 00:27:50.852 --> 00:27:53.172 Minuchin will have to spread the voices around, 523 00:27:53.172 --> 00:27:54.932 so to speak. 524 00:27:54.932 --> 00:27:57.514 Watch as he begins to do this. 525 00:27:57.933 --> 00:28:00.253 - [Doctor Minuchin] Tell me something about your voices. 526 00:28:00.253 --> 00:28:03.053 How many voices are there? 527 00:28:03.053 --> 00:28:05.493 - Sometimes one, sometimes several, 528 00:28:05.493 --> 00:28:08.093 sometimes it seems like the whole world's speaking to me 529 00:28:08.093 --> 00:28:10.883 at once and I just want to scream. 530 00:28:11.333 --> 00:28:15.373 - [Doctor Minuchin] Are the voices male or female? 531 00:28:15.373 --> 00:28:16.663 - Both. 532 00:28:17.713 --> 00:28:19.413 Mostly female. 533 00:28:19.413 --> 00:28:20.313 - [Doctor Minuchin] Mostly female? 534 00:28:20.313 --> 00:28:21.173 - Yeah. 535 00:28:21.173 --> 00:28:22.951 - [Doctor Minuchin] What do they say? 536 00:28:22.951 --> 00:28:27.511 - They tell me what kind of a person I am. 537 00:28:27.511 --> 00:28:29.951 - [Doctor Minuchin] And what kind of person are you? 538 00:28:29.951 --> 00:28:32.091 - I really don't want to get to what-- 539 00:28:32.091 --> 00:28:33.491 - [Doctor Minuchin] According to the voices. 540 00:28:33.491 --> 00:28:37.631 You see, I think that these voices are important, 541 00:28:37.631 --> 00:28:38.631 so I want to know. 542 00:28:38.631 --> 00:28:41.411 - Yeah, but, it's something I don't really discuss so much 543 00:28:41.411 --> 00:28:42.791 when I'm in front of my daughter. 544 00:28:42.791 --> 00:28:44.961 It's something that I don't want to. 545 00:28:46.021 --> 00:28:47.417 It's something I've never really done. 546 00:28:47.417 --> 00:28:49.817 - [Doctor Minuchin] Let's find out if she knows 547 00:28:49.817 --> 00:28:51.217 about your voices-- 548 00:28:51.217 --> 00:28:52.417 - [Angela] She knows. - [Danielle] I know 549 00:28:52.417 --> 00:28:54.397 - [Danielle] about them, I'd like to know what they are. 550 00:28:54.397 --> 00:28:56.037 I want to understand what voices are, 551 00:28:56.037 --> 00:28:59.897 because if I hear voices, I would freak out. 552 00:28:59.897 --> 00:29:03.997 - I think that it's important to understand voices 553 00:29:03.997 --> 00:29:08.997 because I hear voices. 554 00:29:09.917 --> 00:29:12.487 I think we all hear voices. 555 00:29:13.313 --> 00:29:17.929 And some people hear voices 556 00:29:19.299 --> 00:29:24.299 as significant thoughts, 557 00:29:26.187 --> 00:29:31.187 and some people hear voices as if they come from other. 558 00:29:31.387 --> 00:29:35.045 Some people hear voices as if they come from inside. 559 00:29:35.045 --> 00:29:38.064 We all hear voices, 560 00:29:38.064 --> 00:29:39.865 so not just your mom. 561 00:29:39.865 --> 00:29:42.505 I hear voices, you hear voices, 562 00:29:42.505 --> 00:29:45.005 even she hears voices. - [Margaret] I hear voices. 563 00:29:45.005 --> 00:29:47.085 - [Doctor Minuchin] So the question is, 564 00:29:47.085 --> 00:29:49.984 and we listen to our voices, 565 00:29:49.984 --> 00:29:52.481 and the voices tell us things. 566 00:29:52.481 --> 00:29:57.102 But your mom hears voices as if they come from others, 567 00:29:57.102 --> 00:29:58.542 is that correct? - [Angela] Mm-hmm. 568 00:29:58.542 --> 00:30:03.542 - [Doctor Minuchin] So she has the skill 569 00:30:03.657 --> 00:30:07.795 or the disability of hearing these voices 570 00:30:07.795 --> 00:30:12.795 that I hear as inner voices, as if they are outside voices. 571 00:30:13.580 --> 00:30:18.580 You know, that's all, the voices tell her things 572 00:30:19.490 --> 00:30:24.117 that she really knows, because you also have 573 00:30:24.117 --> 00:30:28.197 the same content of your voices outside 574 00:30:28.197 --> 00:30:30.099 in your feelings inside. 575 00:30:30.099 --> 00:30:32.999 If your voices say to you, "You're shitty", 576 00:30:32.999 --> 00:30:37.359 then it is because sometimes your inner thought 577 00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:39.139 says "You're shitty". 578 00:30:39.139 --> 00:30:40.678 - Well then I'm full of shit. 579 00:30:40.678 --> 00:30:41.518 - [Doctor Minuchin] Huh? 580 00:30:41.518 --> 00:30:43.178 - Then I'm full of shit. (laughing) 581 00:30:43.178 --> 00:30:46.118 - [Doctor Minuchin] Yeah, you know, we all are like that. 582 00:30:46.118 --> 00:30:50.059 So what are you saying all of the voices tell you? 583 00:30:50.059 --> 00:30:53.459 - Well sometimes they tell me to do things to myself. 584 00:30:54.209 --> 00:30:58.278 Sometimes I can not listen to them, 585 00:30:58.278 --> 00:31:00.559 and sometimes I listen to them. 586 00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:01.799 - [Doctor Minuchin] They are powerful. 587 00:31:01.799 --> 00:31:02.700 - Yeah. 588 00:31:03.700 --> 00:31:04.644 - [Doctor Minuchin] And when they said, 589 00:31:04.644 --> 00:31:08.503 "Do things to yourself" is to hurt yourself? 590 00:31:08.503 --> 00:31:09.504 - Yes. 591 00:31:09.504 --> 00:31:10.904 - [Doctor Minuchin] Because you're worthless. 592 00:31:10.904 --> 00:31:11.971 - Right. 593 00:31:12.861 --> 00:31:15.021 - [Voiceover] Doctor Minuchin's normalizing assertion 594 00:31:15.021 --> 00:31:17.697 that we all have voices has begun 595 00:31:17.697 --> 00:31:19.757 to spread the voices around, 596 00:31:19.757 --> 00:31:22.557 and to call into question Angela's sole ownership 597 00:31:22.557 --> 00:31:24.457 of the voices. 598 00:31:24.457 --> 00:31:27.417 While this intervention has increased Angela's willingness 599 00:31:27.417 --> 00:31:29.117 to talk about the voices, 600 00:31:29.117 --> 00:31:32.277 it is too global to serve as the foundation 601 00:31:32.277 --> 00:31:34.775 for a detailed exploration of Hector 602 00:31:34.775 --> 00:31:37.376 and Angela's interconnectedness. 603 00:31:37.986 --> 00:31:40.373 Therefore, Minuchin must now find a way 604 00:31:40.373 --> 00:31:42.833 to describe more idiosyncratically 605 00:31:42.833 --> 00:31:47.323 how Hector participates in Angela's hearing of voices. 606 00:31:47.833 --> 00:31:50.053 - And how can you 607 00:31:50.053 --> 00:31:53.293 help these voices? 608 00:31:53.293 --> 00:31:58.293 You see, voices can be tamed. 609 00:32:01.583 --> 00:32:05.077 But they need help. 610 00:32:05.407 --> 00:32:08.381 Now, are the voices, 611 00:32:09.050 --> 00:32:14.050 does your wife ever hear your voices 612 00:32:16.021 --> 00:32:21.021 when she is hearing voices, do you know? 613 00:32:21.431 --> 00:32:22.831 - No, it's never-- - [Doctor Minuchin] Huh? 614 00:32:23.511 --> 00:32:27.571 - [Hector] She's never, my voice is never, 615 00:32:27.571 --> 00:32:29.967 my voice is never part of her voices. 616 00:32:29.967 --> 00:32:30.617 - [Doctor Minuchin] Never part of her-- 617 00:32:30.617 --> 00:32:31.334 - [Danielle] Is my voice in-- 618 00:32:31.334 --> 00:32:34.083 - Well, the only way that it's part of her, 619 00:32:34.083 --> 00:32:37.043 it's a positive influence, push the negative voices out 620 00:32:37.043 --> 00:32:39.643 when they're telling her to do negative things, 621 00:32:39.643 --> 00:32:43.263 she'll key in on what I've told her over the years, 622 00:32:43.263 --> 00:32:44.523 'cause of the voices. 623 00:32:44.523 --> 00:32:46.080 If they come-- 624 00:32:46.080 --> 00:32:50.401 - [Doctor Minuchin] Listen, do you hear his voices also? 625 00:32:50.401 --> 00:32:55.401 No, no, his voice is, I think his voice is too soft. 626 00:32:57.521 --> 00:33:01.331 I don't think his voice is strong enough, you know? 627 00:33:02.361 --> 00:33:06.802 To fight your voices you need another voice 628 00:33:06.802 --> 00:33:10.032 that is at least as strong. 629 00:33:11.582 --> 00:33:15.792 And you speak so softly. 630 00:33:15.792 --> 00:33:18.473 - [Danielle] Excuse me, I always say that to him. 631 00:33:20.143 --> 00:33:25.143 - Do you think your mom hears your voices 632 00:33:25.903 --> 00:33:28.483 when she's like that? 633 00:33:28.483 --> 00:33:30.223 - [Danielle] No, I never know. 634 00:33:30.223 --> 00:33:33.223 - [Doctor Minuchin] So you don't have any influence, huh? 635 00:33:34.083 --> 00:33:36.925 Do you think your voice is there? 636 00:33:36.925 --> 00:33:39.194 - I don't think so, is it? 637 00:33:41.165 --> 00:33:42.265 - [Hector] Veronica? 638 00:33:43.075 --> 00:33:45.987 - Actually, lately I've been hearing mine. 639 00:33:45.987 --> 00:33:47.727 - [Doctor Minuchin] You have been hearing your voice? 640 00:33:47.727 --> 00:33:48.657 - Yeah. 641 00:33:50.067 --> 00:33:52.719 - [Doctor Minuchin] And is it as strong as the others? 642 00:33:52.719 --> 00:33:55.373 - It's getting very loud. 643 00:33:55.373 --> 00:33:56.593 - [Hector] What were you saying? 644 00:33:56.593 --> 00:34:00.334 - Telling me to shut the fuck up. (laughing) 645 00:34:00.334 --> 00:34:02.394 - [Doctor Minuchin] Do you think you will wake up? 646 00:34:02.394 --> 00:34:05.135 - I think so, I think I'm winning. 647 00:34:05.135 --> 00:34:06.215 - [Doctor Minuchin] Tell you something, 648 00:34:06.215 --> 00:34:09.806 I don't think that you can do it alone. 649 00:34:12.976 --> 00:34:15.837 I'm not saying their voices, 650 00:34:15.837 --> 00:34:20.837 I think that unless your voice, 651 00:34:21.337 --> 00:34:22.897 and your voice, 652 00:34:22.897 --> 00:34:26.769 join in the choir of voices, 653 00:34:28.099 --> 00:34:29.440 she cannot do it alone. 654 00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:31.379 - But it's his job, mainly, to do that, 655 00:34:31.379 --> 00:34:32.620 I mean, he's her husband. 656 00:34:32.620 --> 00:34:33.340 - Lovely. 657 00:34:33.340 --> 00:34:35.550 - He should, I mean. - [Doctor Minuchin] Lovely. 658 00:34:35.959 --> 00:34:37.020 - Louder. 659 00:34:37.020 --> 00:34:40.010 - You're absolutely right. 660 00:34:40.760 --> 00:34:43.251 And so, he's not doing his job. 661 00:34:45.100 --> 00:34:47.440 - [Hector] It's difficult to do a job, 662 00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:51.220 actually, if you're not clued in 663 00:34:51.220 --> 00:34:55.421 to the voices, it's like she tells me about the voices 664 00:34:55.421 --> 00:34:57.020 long after the fact. 665 00:34:57.020 --> 00:34:59.501 It's like closing the barn doors after the animals went out, 666 00:34:59.501 --> 00:35:03.278 I mean, it's pointless, might as well leave the doors open. 667 00:35:03.278 --> 00:35:05.117 - I don't think he means that way. 668 00:35:05.117 --> 00:35:07.857 - Yeah, it's that old, you know. 669 00:35:09.437 --> 00:35:13.737 - You just have to be a little bit stronger in character 670 00:35:13.737 --> 00:35:17.697 around me, the things that you do around me. 671 00:35:17.697 --> 00:35:21.618 Not be a voice while the voices are going on. 672 00:35:21.618 --> 00:35:23.477 - [Danielle] That's what he does, I mean, 673 00:35:23.477 --> 00:35:26.458 when they argue or whatever, he just sits there. 674 00:35:26.458 --> 00:35:28.578 It seems like she's the king or something, 675 00:35:28.578 --> 00:35:30.599 she does what she wants. 676 00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:33.479 My daddy should be the one to be the man, 677 00:35:33.479 --> 00:35:36.858 and be like, "No, you listen." 678 00:35:36.858 --> 00:35:39.158 You know? I mean... 679 00:35:39.158 --> 00:35:40.898 - [Hector] Well I've done that, haven't I? 680 00:35:40.898 --> 00:35:45.418 - Hector has changed in the past couple months 681 00:35:45.418 --> 00:35:50.418 where he has been, being more of that dominating voice 682 00:35:50.618 --> 00:35:52.158 that I need. 683 00:35:52.158 --> 00:35:53.599 - [Danielle] See, she needs a dominating man. 684 00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:57.699 - Not just, no, no, not just that, no. 685 00:35:57.699 --> 00:35:58.980 - [Doctor Minuchin] Do you want, 686 00:35:58.980 --> 00:36:01.300 explain to her what you mean by dominant voice. 687 00:36:01.300 --> 00:36:02.299 - His voice is-- 688 00:36:02.299 --> 00:36:03.840 - [Doctor Minuchin] Explain to her, because she needs it. 689 00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:05.360 - His voice is becoming stronger, 690 00:36:05.360 --> 00:36:09.020 he's becoming, "No, this can't be done this way", 691 00:36:09.020 --> 00:36:10.920 or "This is the way we have to do it", 692 00:36:10.920 --> 00:36:13.500 or "Maybe we should do it this way". 693 00:36:13.500 --> 00:36:17.459 The way he's saying things now is a lot different 694 00:36:17.459 --> 00:36:19.999 than it was, he's not being so passive. 695 00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:24.059 He's being a lot stronger than he has been in the past. 696 00:36:24.059 --> 00:36:27.200 To the point where sometimes I shut up 697 00:36:27.200 --> 00:36:29.610 when he's going off, you know? 698 00:36:30.380 --> 00:36:32.440 Something has changed since we've been 699 00:36:32.440 --> 00:36:35.461 in the couples therapy. 700 00:36:36.221 --> 00:36:41.100 He's been more thinking about what he feels, 701 00:36:41.100 --> 00:36:43.981 and worries a little bit more about what he's feeling 702 00:36:43.981 --> 00:36:45.241 than what I was feeling. 703 00:36:45.241 --> 00:36:46.940 'Cause he's always worrying about all those people 704 00:36:46.940 --> 00:36:49.271 before himself. - [Danielle] He prefers it. 705 00:36:51.600 --> 00:36:53.974 - [Doctor Minuchin] The question is, 706 00:36:57.974 --> 00:37:02.974 your wife had always thought 707 00:37:03.206 --> 00:37:08.206 that she would break if she has stresses. 708 00:37:08.946 --> 00:37:13.465 And you learn to accept that, 709 00:37:13.465 --> 00:37:16.066 and you never, then-- 710 00:37:16.066 --> 00:37:17.725 - [Hector] From the beginning, yes. 711 00:37:17.725 --> 00:37:21.885 - You're never for certain whether you could 712 00:37:21.885 --> 00:37:24.306 break the balance. 713 00:37:24.306 --> 00:37:29.306 And you learn to quiet your voice, 714 00:37:29.968 --> 00:37:33.488 to make it so thin, and so thin, 715 00:37:34.238 --> 00:37:39.238 where's the idea that it's what you need, talking. 716 00:37:40.248 --> 00:37:41.552 - To release her stress that way, 717 00:37:41.552 --> 00:37:42.492 I think I would take the stress, 718 00:37:42.492 --> 00:37:43.773 and I would take her situation. 719 00:37:43.773 --> 00:37:46.403 - No, I want to be an equal partner. 720 00:37:46.952 --> 00:37:48.072 - This is the beginning, 721 00:37:48.072 --> 00:37:50.692 and all the trouble that we went through 722 00:37:50.692 --> 00:37:52.485 fed right into it. 723 00:37:54.194 --> 00:37:58.636 - [Doctor Minuchin] It seems as if maybe both of you 724 00:37:58.636 --> 00:38:03.636 have a threshold of stress after which 725 00:38:04.864 --> 00:38:07.194 you escape in different ways. 726 00:38:07.194 --> 00:38:09.775 You escape into the hospital, 727 00:38:09.775 --> 00:38:12.564 and you escape into the drinks. 728 00:38:15.014 --> 00:38:16.795 Possibility, or... 729 00:38:16.795 --> 00:38:18.396 - Yeah, it would be, but I just get lost, 730 00:38:18.396 --> 00:38:20.655 I just click and turn on video. 731 00:38:20.655 --> 00:38:23.835 - [Doctor Minuchin] So when you, 732 00:38:23.835 --> 00:38:28.835 when you escape, I think she begins to hear voices. 733 00:38:31.595 --> 00:38:35.356 Your voices become stronger when he escapes. 734 00:38:37.366 --> 00:38:40.815 Or when, you know, even in this situation, 735 00:38:40.815 --> 00:38:44.056 your escape was not, 736 00:38:45.466 --> 00:38:48.476 was not there for you, 737 00:38:48.476 --> 00:38:51.879 you were really sick and unable. 738 00:38:51.879 --> 00:38:56.879 But it is similar to all her escapes that are psychological. 739 00:38:57.298 --> 00:38:58.978 - Yeah, there was nothing special, 740 00:38:58.978 --> 00:39:00.488 I was not there. 741 00:39:00.488 --> 00:39:01.038 - You weren't. 742 00:39:01.038 --> 00:39:02.929 - [Doctor Minuchin] And there she goes-- 743 00:39:02.929 --> 00:39:04.148 - Frickin' crying. 744 00:39:04.148 --> 00:39:05.079 - [Doctor Minuchin] She goes into crazy. 745 00:39:05.079 --> 00:39:08.152 - Yeah, I understand. 746 00:39:09.612 --> 00:39:14.536 - [Doctor Minuchin] So it's clear that when she, 747 00:39:14.536 --> 00:39:18.416 when her voices become loud, 748 00:39:18.416 --> 00:39:21.076 it is because you - [Hector] I'm upset. 749 00:39:21.076 --> 00:39:22.946 - [Doctor Minuchin] you disappear. 750 00:39:23.396 --> 00:39:25.036 - [Voiceover] As the session closes, 751 00:39:25.036 --> 00:39:29.324 Angela no longer has sole ownership of her voices. 752 00:39:29.324 --> 00:39:32.124 Hector's participation in Angela's hearing of voices 753 00:39:32.124 --> 00:39:34.944 has been described, and in the process, 754 00:39:34.944 --> 00:39:36.844 the interconnectedness of the spouses 755 00:39:36.844 --> 00:39:38.704 has been reaffirmed. 756 00:39:39.144 --> 00:39:41.162 Moreover, the way in which Doctor Minuchin 757 00:39:41.162 --> 00:39:44.682 has described Hector and Angela's interconnectedness 758 00:39:44.682 --> 00:39:47.222 has suggested an avenue of possible change 759 00:39:47.222 --> 00:39:50.312 in the way they relate to each other. 760 00:39:58.502 --> 00:40:01.302 More than a year after the second consultation, 761 00:40:01.302 --> 00:40:03.562 Doctor Minuchin met with Hector and Angela 762 00:40:03.562 --> 00:40:05.782 for a followup interview. 763 00:40:06.272 --> 00:40:09.540 During this period, Angela had had only a single, 764 00:40:09.540 --> 00:40:12.720 brief hospitalization, a radical departure 765 00:40:12.720 --> 00:40:14.640 from the previous pattern. 766 00:40:15.500 --> 00:40:18.078 During the period, Danielle had become pregnant, 767 00:40:18.078 --> 00:40:20.758 and given birth to a baby boy. 768 00:40:20.758 --> 00:40:23.158 At the time of the followup interview, 769 00:40:23.158 --> 00:40:25.898 Danielle, the baby, and the baby's father 770 00:40:25.898 --> 00:40:28.248 were living with Angela and Hector. 771 00:40:28.948 --> 00:40:30.736 Angela began the interview by talking 772 00:40:30.736 --> 00:40:33.136 about her newborn grandson. 773 00:40:33.136 --> 00:40:35.476 - [Angela] My daughter and my grandson. 774 00:40:35.476 --> 00:40:38.096 - [Margaret] Okay, this is what I've come to see. 775 00:40:38.096 --> 00:40:39.412 - Sal's gotta see this, he's gotta see-- 776 00:40:39.412 --> 00:40:40.573 - [Doctor Minuchin] I am embarrassed, 777 00:40:40.573 --> 00:40:44.549 'cause I have a granddaughter, and I don't have a picture. 778 00:40:44.549 --> 00:40:46.568 - I don't have a picture - [Angela] That's too bad. 779 00:40:46.568 --> 00:40:48.868 - [Hector] of my daughter, and Angela, that's all-- 780 00:40:48.868 --> 00:40:49.909 - That's the one for me. 781 00:40:49.909 --> 00:40:52.348 This is gorgeous. - [Hector] Isn't he beautiful? 782 00:40:53.298 --> 00:40:54.539 - And it's a nice offspring. 783 00:40:54.539 --> 00:40:56.709 - [Angela] He looks like me. 784 00:40:57.539 --> 00:40:59.869 He also has a cleft in his chin. 785 00:40:59.869 --> 00:41:00.846 - [Hector] Everyone says he looks like her. 786 00:41:00.846 --> 00:41:01.536 - [Angela] He has a cleft in his chin, 787 00:41:01.536 --> 00:41:02.620 and you can't see it on the film there. 788 00:41:02.620 --> 00:41:03.875 - [Margaret] Isn't that lovely. 789 00:41:03.875 --> 00:41:05.615 - [Hector] You think he looks like her? 790 00:41:05.615 --> 00:41:06.395 - [Angela] He is very big. 791 00:41:06.395 --> 00:41:07.434 - How old is he? 792 00:41:07.434 --> 00:41:08.834 - [Angela] He's six months - [Hector] Six months now 793 00:41:08.834 --> 00:41:11.045 - [Angela] and two or three weeks. 794 00:41:11.835 --> 00:41:12.992 - He does look like you. 795 00:41:12.992 --> 00:41:13.772 - [Angela] Yeah. 796 00:41:13.772 --> 00:41:15.792 - [Hector] And what's good is that we're making a good, 797 00:41:15.792 --> 00:41:18.392 a real impression on the kid. 798 00:41:18.392 --> 00:41:20.329 - [Angela] Also we've changed, I mean, 799 00:41:20.329 --> 00:41:23.370 the house setting is so different. 800 00:41:23.370 --> 00:41:27.070 But we take care of our stuff. 801 00:41:27.070 --> 00:41:28.870 Danielle cooks for 802 00:41:29.600 --> 00:41:30.807 what's his face. - [Hector] King Tut. 803 00:41:30.807 --> 00:41:32.206 - [Angela] King Tut. - [Hector] What's his face. 804 00:41:33.726 --> 00:41:36.083 - [Angela] And little Anthony and herself, 805 00:41:36.083 --> 00:41:38.143 and they clean behind themselves. 806 00:41:38.143 --> 00:41:40.823 The living room is sort of like neutral territory. 807 00:41:40.823 --> 00:41:43.102 There's a television set there with a VCR, 808 00:41:43.102 --> 00:41:46.203 but everybody has a set in their own room. 809 00:41:46.203 --> 00:41:49.822 We're all in our own rooms. 810 00:41:49.822 --> 00:41:52.763 We sometimes come out into the living room. 811 00:41:52.763 --> 00:41:54.903 - [Hector] She finally heard me. 812 00:41:55.763 --> 00:41:58.019 - What do you mean, "I finally heard you", what? 813 00:41:58.019 --> 00:41:59.319 - [Hector] Well I told you this business 814 00:41:59.319 --> 00:42:02.999 of cloistering yourself in the room and everything. 815 00:42:02.999 --> 00:42:05.529 - [Angela] Well I'm coming out a little bit more, yeah. 816 00:42:06.049 --> 00:42:07.854 - You see, you know, 'cause you were doing this. 817 00:42:07.854 --> 00:42:09.294 You would lock yourself in the room, 818 00:42:09.294 --> 00:42:11.713 and you'd impose this punishment on yourself 819 00:42:11.713 --> 00:42:13.873 then you say it's them. 820 00:42:13.873 --> 00:42:15.913 And it was never them, it was always you. 821 00:42:15.913 --> 00:42:18.513 You want, and it was a good idea, give them room, 822 00:42:18.513 --> 00:42:19.514 access to the living room. 823 00:42:19.514 --> 00:42:21.854 But you got into this thing, "Look what they did to us". 824 00:42:21.854 --> 00:42:23.374 No one did anything to you. 825 00:42:23.374 --> 00:42:24.734 The house is yours. 826 00:42:24.734 --> 00:42:26.113 - [Angela] I know, I know. 827 00:42:26.113 --> 00:42:27.374 - I know, now you know. 828 00:42:27.374 --> 00:42:29.754 - And I started to feel claustrophobic a couple weeks ago, 829 00:42:29.754 --> 00:42:31.013 I said, "Screw this"-- 830 00:42:31.013 --> 00:42:31.773 - Go out in the living room. 831 00:42:31.773 --> 00:42:33.454 - Come back out in the living room. 832 00:42:33.454 --> 00:42:36.104 - [Doctor Minuchin] And you don't know because 833 00:42:36.104 --> 00:42:40.114 I have not seen you for over a year, 834 00:42:40.114 --> 00:42:44.195 and I noticed that Hector is very different 835 00:42:44.195 --> 00:42:48.034 than he was a year ago. 836 00:42:48.034 --> 00:42:48.935 - Uh-huh. 837 00:42:48.935 --> 00:42:51.355 - [Doctor Minuchin] How did that happen? 838 00:42:51.355 --> 00:42:54.415 - I don't know, it's a little bit of that Puerto Rican stuff 839 00:42:54.415 --> 00:42:58.655 coming out of him, and he just started to put his foot down, 840 00:42:58.655 --> 00:43:01.354 and I'm like, "Okay". (laughing) 841 00:43:01.354 --> 00:43:03.734 - [Doctor Minuchin] But very, very different. 842 00:43:03.734 --> 00:43:08.034 - Yeah, I learned to shut up at times. 843 00:43:08.034 --> 00:43:12.193 - [Doctor Minuchin] Is that an improvement? 844 00:43:12.193 --> 00:43:13.034 - [Angela] Yes. 845 00:43:13.493 --> 00:43:14.793 - In what way? 846 00:43:14.793 --> 00:43:17.013 Because, you know, I'm impressed with you. 847 00:43:17.013 --> 00:43:22.013 - [Angela] It makes me feel protected and safe. 848 00:43:22.134 --> 00:43:27.134 He's taken charge, he's being the man of the house, 849 00:43:27.794 --> 00:43:32.794 he's not being the doctor taking care of a patient. 850 00:43:34.074 --> 00:43:38.634 I am not a patient, I am his wife. 851 00:43:38.634 --> 00:43:41.374 And I am trying to be his wife, 852 00:43:41.374 --> 00:43:43.893 and do the things that I have to do. 853 00:43:43.893 --> 00:43:46.553 - I think it was because we were going to Margaret, 854 00:43:46.553 --> 00:43:47.874 and we were doing well. 855 00:43:47.874 --> 00:43:49.554 - We used a lot of - [Hector] Margaret was good. 856 00:43:49.554 --> 00:43:51.434 - [Angela] things she told us. - [Hector] But Margaret called 857 00:43:51.434 --> 00:43:53.304 - [Hector] us and things she pointed out. 858 00:43:53.304 --> 00:43:55.254 We talked about and-- 859 00:43:55.254 --> 00:43:56.294 - [Doctor Minuchin] Like what? 860 00:43:56.294 --> 00:44:01.294 - That I was being Angela's doctor, or her father, 861 00:44:01.854 --> 00:44:05.333 or her big brother, protecting her, and not being a husband, 862 00:44:05.333 --> 00:44:08.873 so I was playing, I was not a husband anymore. 863 00:44:08.873 --> 00:44:11.474 So this altered our relationship as husband and wife, 864 00:44:11.474 --> 00:44:15.654 I became her caretaker, I protected her against her mother, 865 00:44:15.654 --> 00:44:18.633 I would do this for her, I would do that for her 866 00:44:18.633 --> 00:44:21.274 to keep her shielded from anybody or thing. 867 00:44:21.274 --> 00:44:23.034 And that's what I've been doing for all these years, 868 00:44:23.034 --> 00:44:26.574 and my life, per se, was put on hold. 869 00:44:26.574 --> 00:44:30.126 And then I would put severe demands on myself, 870 00:44:30.126 --> 00:44:32.546 and that's when the Nazi came in, when I had to go to work, 871 00:44:32.546 --> 00:44:34.206 I had to do this, I had to do that, 872 00:44:34.206 --> 00:44:36.665 and Margaret pointed this out to me. 873 00:44:36.665 --> 00:44:41.426 - What could you use from Margaret, or do you use, 874 00:44:41.426 --> 00:44:45.315 to change your relationship with Hector, for instance. 875 00:44:45.315 --> 00:44:49.757 - [Angela] Well the idea that you kept on talking about 876 00:44:49.757 --> 00:44:54.757 how he was taking care of me, and I wasn't being a wife, 877 00:44:55.297 --> 00:44:57.857 in reality I wasn't being a woman, 878 00:44:57.857 --> 00:44:59.716 that's what I was hearing. 879 00:44:59.716 --> 00:45:04.257 And I just, Hector got sick and it was like 880 00:45:04.257 --> 00:45:06.157 I had to, all of a sudden, 881 00:45:06.157 --> 00:45:09.015 somebody had to take care of the family. 882 00:45:09.015 --> 00:45:10.994 - [Doctor Minuchin] But what kept you together 883 00:45:10.994 --> 00:45:15.994 was the fact that you were needed. 884 00:45:18.335 --> 00:45:19.934 - Needed by the man I love. 885 00:45:19.934 --> 00:45:22.035 - [Doctor Minuchin] Yeah, but that was something 886 00:45:22.035 --> 00:45:25.715 that didn't keep you before. 887 00:45:27.585 --> 00:45:32.531 So something very, very new happened 888 00:45:32.531 --> 00:45:34.371 in your relationship. 889 00:45:34.371 --> 00:45:39.371 I think that part of it was that you used to escape, 890 00:45:42.191 --> 00:45:47.191 if I remember correctly, as soon as she began to be upset, 891 00:45:48.527 --> 00:45:51.687 that upset you, and-- 892 00:45:51.687 --> 00:45:55.196 - I would just quietly retreat, you know. 893 00:45:55.196 --> 00:45:57.344 Now, when she gets upset, I tell her, 894 00:45:57.344 --> 00:45:59.625 "Look, I don't need this", I tell her with her friend, 895 00:45:59.625 --> 00:46:02.125 "That's enough", and I just walk away. 896 00:46:02.125 --> 00:46:05.214 And I tell her, you know, enough is enough. 897 00:46:05.214 --> 00:46:08.500 - [Doctor Minuchin] Okay, but in order to do that, 898 00:46:08.500 --> 00:46:13.160 you need to have the certainty that she will not-- 899 00:46:13.160 --> 00:46:14.240 - [Hector] Totally collapse. 900 00:46:14.240 --> 00:46:16.100 - Yeah, how did-- 901 00:46:16.100 --> 00:46:18.099 - [Hector] Because I know she will not collapse, 902 00:46:18.099 --> 00:46:22.679 because I no longer believe that she's nuts. 903 00:46:22.679 --> 00:46:24.159 Pure and simple. 904 00:46:24.159 --> 00:46:27.079 She's not crazy, she knows what she's doing, 905 00:46:27.079 --> 00:46:28.020 she knows what's going on. - [Doctor Minuchin] How long 906 00:46:28.020 --> 00:46:30.140 - [Doctor Minuchin] did it take you to get that realization? 907 00:46:30.140 --> 00:46:30.980 How many years? 908 00:46:30.980 --> 00:46:33.490 - A long time. 909 00:46:33.490 --> 00:46:35.818 - [Voiceover] As they themselves described, 910 00:46:35.818 --> 00:46:39.198 it was the systemic, therapeutic strategy of affirming 911 00:46:39.198 --> 00:46:41.478 and exploring their interconnectedness 912 00:46:41.478 --> 00:46:44.178 that had allowed Hector and Angela to discover 913 00:46:44.178 --> 00:46:47.958 unsuspected resources in their relationship with each other. 914 00:46:48.728 --> 00:46:50.576 And it was, in turn, the transformation 915 00:46:50.576 --> 00:46:53.616 of their relationship that had empowered the couple 916 00:46:53.616 --> 00:46:56.806 to break the pattern of repeated hospitalization 917 00:46:56.806 --> 00:47:00.554 that had for so long oppressed the family. 918 00:47:00.554 --> 00:47:02.614 Hector and Angela's upbeat tone 919 00:47:02.614 --> 00:47:04.414 during the followup interview 920 00:47:04.414 --> 00:47:06.755 gave simple and eloquent expression 921 00:47:06.755 --> 00:47:09.314 to the victory that this family had won 922 00:47:09.314 --> 00:47:12.764 over its legacy of multiple problems. 923 00:47:14.934 --> 00:47:19.934 (organ music)