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- Okay, well thank you, and welcome back

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and so what this afternoon will look like

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is a have a bit more
slides to really talk about

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sort of re-authoring conversations,

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which has really had
a structure and build,

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like that alternative story,
like in that first example.

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Well, I mean, it could be
building the bad-driver story.

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It could be building with that young boy

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on the inpatient unit, just his ways

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of knowing and caring and being

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in relationship to others.

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So that's what we'll talk about

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sort of with the slides.

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We will look at a
transcripted conversation

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with a mother and teenage boy that will

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start with a bit of
externalizing and then move

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to a reauthoring idea, and I am determined

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to make sure that
there's time for you guys

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to practice a little
bit, and you can choose

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whether you want to externalize.

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At least I'm not making
you do an active role-play

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in front of the room, unless
you're reading from a script.

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The new semester started
at Smith this past week,

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and in my narrative therapy class,

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I have an assignment
that's a group assignment

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about doing a role play,
and that's the four words,

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that incite fear in social work students

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are role play and group
project. (chuckling)

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That's assignment, woo!

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Anyway, but I also wanted to
make sure that we use time

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at the end to talk about consultation,

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and I've really had
the pleasure of already

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getting to talk too people individually

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and hearing about different
kinds of practices

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people are already doing in their work

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or have done with these
ideas, and so, you know,

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I think part of the challenge in hearing

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about a lot of collaborative
strengths-based therapies

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is trying to figure out how does this fit

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in the environment that I'm working in,

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when we think about what
practice environment

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is often like.

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You know, I realized
that somehow, I got away

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without really introducing
myself ahead of time,

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so I just will say something.

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You've all been very patient
to sit with a stranger

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for the last three hours,
but I guess I should

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just say to context a little bit about

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how I learned about narrative therapy was

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As a student here at
Smith in Master's Program,

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I was initially introduced to the ideas in

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a couple of my classes, and I actually had

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the opportunity to take
a narrative and feminist

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family therapy class during
my final summer here,

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and after I graduated, I decided that

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out of everything that I learned,

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this is really some of the ideas

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that were most exciting to me, and so,

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you know, already being in such deep debt,

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I decided to go further.

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I studied in Australia with Michael White,

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who's one of the primary theorists

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of narrative therapy.

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They do an international
certification course,

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and so that was a really
powerful experience

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and a true joy to work
with other social workers

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from around the world, and we
have stayed close as a group.

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They actually now are just
starting a Masters Program

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in narrative therapy, which is also

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really an exciting
initiative on their part.

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And I teach.

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Currently, I'm a doctoral student,

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and I also am teaching both here and at

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Simmons College School for Social Work.

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Here at Smith, I teach a sort of 10-week

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feminist ideologic and
narrative family therapy class,

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and a narrative therapy
electives, as well as,

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this here, Intro to Family Therapy.

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For years, I've been teaching
first-year practice here.

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And I also teach similar types of courses,

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first-year practice family therapy

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or group therapy usually at Simmons.

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Oh, and an Intro to Stats class,

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which is just a fun little
different type of thing.

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I also am a a field advisor for Smith,

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and so I know there's a lot of supervisors

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and field advisors here this weekend,

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and so that's also a way

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that I stay connected to the school.

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And then I also see clients.

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I do narrative supervision,

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and I consult with agencies in this area.

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So, okay, enough about me.

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Let's talk a little bit about
re-authoring conversations,

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and really, how these
are sort of cultivating

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stories of strength and meaning.

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So sometimes they're
call preferred stories.

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It just would be really, how do I create

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another kind of automatic way of thinking

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or another way of understanding or being

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in the world in relation
to a problem or a value?

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One of the things we'll also work with

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a little bit this afternoon
is there's a range

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of visual tools.

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I think, you know, like narrative therapy,

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although I find it to be
really a very creative

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an artistic approach, is
actually a very structured

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approach, and I'm not was
always someone who can think

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a lot of visual tools, or
that's not always something that

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can be so helpful for me, personally,

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but we're going to do exercise in mapping

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this afternoon as we
talk about re-authoring,

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and actually, for me and my learning,

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it was actually really helpful.

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I wouldn’t have though of this.

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So we'll play with it a little bit.

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I do have to say, one of my
favorite narrative books,

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we talked about narrative means

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to therapeutic ends this morning,

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but one of my favorites is
on the short reference list,

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and I think I put up a
chapter of it on mine,

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which is the mapping narrative
practice by Michael White.

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I have cards here.

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If anyone wants my e-mail or anything,

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I can help you if there's particular areas

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of interest or focus in your work

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that you'd like to have,
maybe, more information

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or a resource list, I am
happy, if you would e-mail me,

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I can give you resources,
and if I have them scanned,

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I'll give you copies of the articles.

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So just as we were just talking about,

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our identities are based on the stories

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that we tell about ourselves.

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I've heard it said that stories

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aren't just about ourselves.

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It's of who we are, and so a lot of them

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are linked to things that
we value or hold dear,

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So in this story that we, you know,

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had heard about, you know,
both compassion and connection

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and that became the compassion monster

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that so much of that story
as we so deeply heard

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is how grounded that is in values

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and things in people's
lives, so, you know,

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one of the things about thinking

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about the intentional
state understanding list

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is that we're really thinking about

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is that we're really connected to those

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values, dreams, commitments, and hopes.

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That says narrative psychiatry.

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Sorry, that was from another training,

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but re-authoring stories,
or narrative psychiatry

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or narrative training, there is actually,

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for the psychiatrist in your life,

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there is a local psychiatrist here,

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who's in my peer group, and who I've been

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doing some training with lately

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named Dr. Sue Ellen Hamkins.

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She's a former psychiatrist here

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at Smith College, and now she is the

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the Assistant Associate Medical Director

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with the College Counseling Center

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at UMass Amhurst, and she has written

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a wonderful book called The
Art of Narrative Psychiatry,

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which will be coming out in the fall

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from Oxford University
Press, and what I love

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about it is it's, you know, a lot of books

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about narrative therapy,
a couple that I put

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on the list, the William Madsen book,

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which there's also a chapter that

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I posted to Moodle and
the Michael White book.

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I just find that I really like to teach

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with materials that have
a lot of transcripts,

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that have a lot of
clinical examples in it,

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because it really makes
the reading come alive,

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and Sue Ellen's book
is very much like that,

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as with those other sources.

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- [Woman] (inaudible question).

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- Her last name is H-A-M-K-I-N-S.

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So in the process of re-authoring stories,

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narrative therapy seeks
to deconstruct stories

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that are harmful and reveal
the broader cultural influences

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of harmful and negative stories,

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as we talked about.

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It tends to try to identify
alternative strength

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stories that highlight strengths,

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meanings and actions taken that stand

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in contrast to the person's
problem experience,

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and to connect these alternative stories

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and events over time,
to create new stories

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of strength and meaning, so
it's just like connecting

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the Xes in a good driver story.

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That's what we would seek to do.

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In deconstructing of harmful narratives,

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narrative therapy
utilizes a range of tools,

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and it's really, you
know, the collaborative

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attuned therapeutic relationship.

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And this theory would be
the same as with any other.

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All research shows that it's less about

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one's theoretic approach than
the relationship qualities

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and how important it is to always practice

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in an attuned, connected way.

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Strength space, externalizing, linking

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to broader socio-cultural discourses,

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and then creating these new stories.

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So the problem stories
are often well known

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to those who come to consult with us,

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and they're established over time

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in connection to other
people, and they tend

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to be really very detailed in the minds

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of the people who come to talk to us.

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And so to create a new
story, narrative therapy

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would utilize questions
which elicit the details

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of action, and so if you've read things

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in narrative therapy
literature, it's often called

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landscape of action questions and meaning,

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which is sometimes called the landscape

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of identity questions.

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So I'm going to actually,
before I get to the next slide,

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I really want to give a detailed

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clinical example, because I
do feel like it's helpful.

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We've had a few over
the course of the day,

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but even though this is entitled

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narrative work with
children and adolescents,

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through conversations and
a lot of folks in here,

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I understand that a lot of people in here

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are working, also, with adults.

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That's right, okay.

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So I thought maybe I could use

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an example of an adult with this,

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if that might fit for people,

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and I really also wanna talk about trauma

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in my example, because I
think that that's something

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that all of us are really
doing a lot of work with,

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and that's yet another
area where I think that

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a lot of the ways that
we're taught to engage

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in people's experiences with trauma

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are a lot about effects conversations,

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as opposed to response conversations,

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and I think that response conversations

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are ones that really pull
out those intentional

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state of understandings, as opposed

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to internal kinds of understanding

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and really pull out active experience

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as opposed to positioning a person

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as passive recipients to their experience.

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I think what so many people experience

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as profoundly traumatizing in a range

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of traumatic experiences that they are

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in that moment, they
feel that their capacity

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to respond and to engage in things

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that they might like to do, like,

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feels very limited, and in fact,

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it often feels invisible to people,

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and I worry that sometimes the ways

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that we talk about
things, people's responses

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in that situation, people are very good

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at minimizing the ways that they responded

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00:12:10,698 --> 00:12:12,827
if a genetic event happened.

259
00:12:12,827 --> 00:12:14,615
They didn’t do enough.

260
00:12:14,615 --> 00:12:17,277
If they had done more, it
wouldn't have happened.

261
00:12:17,277 --> 00:12:22,077
But I think that it's
very easy for the ways

262
00:12:22,077 --> 00:12:24,320
that people did respond
and continue to respond

263
00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:29,320
to trauma and pain end up
inadvertently getting put

264
00:12:30,148 --> 00:12:32,677
beside in a lot of our conversations.

265
00:12:34,584 --> 00:12:38,720
You know, I think it's more typical,

266
00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,157
and I think about a
lot of ways of practice

267
00:12:41,157 --> 00:12:42,858
where I've practiced, historically,

268
00:12:48,191 --> 00:12:50,332
to talk about how, for example, something

269
00:12:50,332 --> 00:12:51,950
like a flashback can be interrupting,

270
00:12:51,950 --> 00:12:55,951
as opposed to what's
upsetting about the meaning.

271
00:12:55,951 --> 00:13:00,630
What values were transgressed in some ways

272
00:13:00,630 --> 00:13:03,412
in the traumatic experience to talk about

273
00:13:03,412 --> 00:13:04,950
in the first place?

274
00:13:04,950 --> 00:13:09,950
So my example that I'm going to talk about

275
00:13:11,812 --> 00:13:14,132
is with an adult woman in her 40s,

276
00:13:14,132 --> 00:13:16,611
and this is from some years ago

277
00:13:16,611 --> 00:13:18,912
when I was working in the Boston area,

278
00:13:18,912 --> 00:13:23,912
and I had had the context
of working with her

279
00:13:25,390 --> 00:13:29,216
for some time, and when she first came

280
00:13:29,216 --> 00:13:30,834
into therapy, and this is not unusual,

281
00:13:30,834 --> 00:13:33,334
she talked about her desire
to work on some trauma

282
00:13:33,334 --> 00:13:35,513
that had happened very early in her life

283
00:13:35,513 --> 00:13:39,615
that she saw as being
very influential in a lot

284
00:13:39,615 --> 00:13:41,714
of the ways that her life had gone on,

285
00:13:41,714 --> 00:13:44,329
you know, proceeding from that moment.

286
00:13:45,290 --> 00:13:49,171
She was a woman who had just a history

287
00:13:49,171 --> 00:13:53,371
of juggling many problems
throughout the course of her life.

288
00:13:53,371 --> 00:13:56,632
I mean, just a lot of
struggles, and in fact,

289
00:13:56,632 --> 00:14:00,790
for a long time, our therapy felt like

290
00:14:01,130 --> 00:14:02,550
we were sort of in a batting cage,

291
00:14:02,550 --> 00:14:06,071
and each week, because of the balls

292
00:14:06,071 --> 00:14:07,730
that she had in the air at all times,

293
00:14:07,730 --> 00:14:10,370
each week we were
responding to whatever pitch

294
00:14:10,370 --> 00:14:12,601
had come at her, you know, or several.

295
00:14:12,642 --> 00:14:15,061
You know, more than
working on other things,

296
00:14:15,061 --> 00:14:17,341
and it's not that that's not very valuable

297
00:14:17,341 --> 00:14:19,901
work, it just sort of felt like

298
00:14:19,901 --> 00:14:21,663
when she talked about what she hoped for

299
00:14:21,663 --> 00:14:23,962
in therapy, it didn't always
feel like what we were doing

300
00:14:23,962 --> 00:14:26,882
in a week-to-week basis fit with her

301
00:14:26,882 --> 00:14:29,325
initial hopes were, and some of the things

302
00:14:29,325 --> 00:14:31,583
that she had going on is that she was

303
00:14:31,583 --> 00:14:36,583
a single parent of three
special-needs children.

304
00:14:36,804 --> 00:14:40,043
I mean, that alone has lots
of pitches coming at you.

305
00:14:40,885 --> 00:14:45,302
She had been in a series of relationships

306
00:14:45,302 --> 00:14:48,143
characterized by domestic
violence and abuse,

307
00:14:49,145 --> 00:14:53,105
and had minimal contact with two people

308
00:14:53,105 --> 00:14:55,884
but each of her children's fathers

309
00:14:55,884 --> 00:14:58,624
had been abusive towards their children

310
00:14:58,624 --> 00:15:00,425
and had been abusive towards her,

311
00:15:00,425 --> 00:15:03,964
and there were, you know, two
men in those relationships.

312
00:15:04,584 --> 00:15:07,207
As she continued to
date, although she didn’t

313
00:15:07,207 --> 00:15:09,945
continue to have children,
often times, relationships

314
00:15:09,945 --> 00:15:12,606
would move into a realm of sort of

315
00:15:12,606 --> 00:15:14,987
how she might describe
as domestic violence,

316
00:15:15,086 --> 00:15:17,445
or I also would describe it in that way,

317
00:15:17,546 --> 00:15:18,986
interpersonal violence.

318
00:15:19,727 --> 00:15:22,647
She had a very long-term struggle,

319
00:15:22,647 --> 00:15:26,466
decades, with eating
disorders or eating issues,

320
00:15:26,628 --> 00:15:29,768
but primarily through withholding of food,

321
00:15:35,347 --> 00:15:38,255
and really struggled to engage in any kind

322
00:15:38,255 --> 00:15:40,474
of practices of self-care, would often put

323
00:15:40,474 --> 00:15:43,516
others in her life before herself.

324
00:15:45,355 --> 00:15:48,074
And I've talked to her
about sharing this story,

325
00:15:48,074 --> 00:15:53,074
her story with others, which (inaudible)

326
00:15:54,208 --> 00:15:55,768
felt she was okay with.

327
00:15:55,768 --> 00:15:58,068
So I just want to say
that also for the record.

328
00:15:58,707 --> 00:16:02,561
So we had been working
for some time together

329
00:16:04,519 --> 00:16:06,799
and, you know, periodically,
usually around the time

330
00:16:06,799 --> 00:16:08,901
that treatment eval was,

331
00:16:11,883 --> 00:16:14,042
I would often ask her
how treatment was going,

332
00:16:14,124 --> 00:16:16,003
but, particularly, it
would be reconnecting

333
00:16:16,003 --> 00:16:18,722
to her original desire to
talk more about trauma.

334
00:16:19,003 --> 00:16:20,963
Particularly, as quarterly treatment plans

335
00:16:20,963 --> 00:16:24,093
or other things were done, and one time,

336
00:16:24,093 --> 00:16:26,071
she decided that she
didn't want to talk about,

337
00:16:26,071 --> 00:16:31,071
and it came at a time that
I was in the practice of --

338
00:16:33,871 --> 00:16:35,132
There's an article that I love,

339
00:16:35,132 --> 00:16:37,171
and I actually really should post it.

340
00:16:38,213 --> 00:16:40,371
I'll to try to remember to do that.

341
00:16:40,514 --> 00:16:43,532
It's a chapter by Michael White called

342
00:16:43,732 --> 00:16:46,974
The Absent but Implicit, and it's an idea

343
00:16:47,012 --> 00:16:48,613
that I was talking about earlier.

344
00:16:48,613 --> 00:16:53,613
If what's painful about the depression

345
00:16:55,914 --> 00:16:58,432
is the experience of loneliness.

346
00:16:58,852 --> 00:17:01,789
What's not being spoken of but is known

347
00:17:01,789 --> 00:17:04,188
and sort of hidden in that experience

348
00:17:04,207 --> 00:17:07,458
is that there is some
knowledge of connection,

349
00:17:07,517 --> 00:17:10,097
and there's likely some
history of connection.

350
00:17:11,339 --> 00:17:13,597
You know, some people do
have a relation of life

351
00:17:13,597 --> 00:17:16,177
where there hasn't been
a history of connection,

352
00:17:16,437 --> 00:17:19,117
but there may very well
be dreams of connection

353
00:17:19,117 --> 00:17:21,077
because of things that they've read

354
00:17:21,077 --> 00:17:23,878
or other ways that they've
experienced the world,

355
00:17:24,037 --> 00:17:27,858
and so, you know, lots of times,

356
00:17:27,858 --> 00:17:32,158
it's remarkable to engage in conversations

357
00:17:32,218 --> 00:17:33,959
where you're doing re-authoring,

358
00:17:34,236 --> 00:17:36,436
and if you can get people to describe

359
00:17:36,436 --> 00:17:40,577
their vision or their hopes or, you know,

360
00:17:40,577 --> 00:17:43,297
something that connects you in the present

361
00:17:43,297 --> 00:17:44,558
or what they might want for their selves.

362
00:17:44,558 --> 00:17:47,838
That knowledge, going back to how

363
00:17:47,838 --> 00:17:50,277
all of learning is social relationships,

364
00:17:51,337 --> 00:17:54,097
and we know ourselves through
our relationships with others.

365
00:17:54,097 --> 00:17:56,397
So often, there was a teacher.

366
00:17:56,421 --> 00:17:57,759
There was a therapist.

367
00:17:58,212 --> 00:17:59,630
There was a neighbor

368
00:17:59,630 --> 00:18:03,198
There was somebody in their life who saw

369
00:18:03,198 --> 00:18:04,124
or understood them in that way.

370
00:18:04,124 --> 00:18:06,882
That's why I love that question of

371
00:18:08,582 --> 00:18:12,392
who would appreciate this
desire for connection?

372
00:18:12,392 --> 00:18:14,933
Who would know that that
was important to you,

373
00:18:14,933 --> 00:18:16,888
or that was something that you cherish?

374
00:18:16,888 --> 00:18:18,709
Is there someone who you
have felt connected to

375
00:18:18,709 --> 00:18:21,549
or you felt saw you in some way?

376
00:18:22,669 --> 00:18:25,248
So, at any rate, it's this absent

377
00:18:25,248 --> 00:18:28,447
but implicit idea is that so often

378
00:18:28,447 --> 00:18:31,374
whatever we're getting,
like, the flip side

379
00:18:31,374 --> 00:18:34,913
of that might be that intentional state

380
00:18:34,913 --> 00:18:37,073
of understanding, that value, that hope,

381
00:18:37,073 --> 00:18:40,012
that dream may be right
behind what we're getting,

382
00:18:40,133 --> 00:18:43,992
and so if you're doing a crisis evaluation

383
00:18:43,992 --> 00:18:46,993
in the emergency room
because someone's expressing

384
00:18:46,993 --> 00:18:49,013
a tremendous amount of hopelessness

385
00:18:49,013 --> 00:18:52,495
and suicidal ideation, you know, so often,

386
00:18:52,853 --> 00:18:56,574
that absent implicit idea, ultimately,

387
00:18:56,574 --> 00:19:01,414
sort of, in what have you been able

388
00:19:01,414 --> 00:19:04,355
to hope for in this time,
and even if a person's

389
00:19:04,355 --> 00:19:06,675
expressing tremendous hopelessness,

390
00:19:06,675 --> 00:19:08,996
but they got themselves to the ER

391
00:19:08,996 --> 00:19:11,795
for an evaluation, like,
might there be some hope

392
00:19:11,795 --> 00:19:14,374
that life could be
different still inside them

393
00:19:14,374 --> 00:19:16,757
that's helping them
have this conversation?

394
00:19:17,133 --> 00:19:19,074
Or, you know, whatever did get that person

395
00:19:19,074 --> 00:19:21,194
to the emergency room for the evaluation,

396
00:19:21,194 --> 00:19:23,315
even if they were dragged
there by a loved one.

397
00:19:23,635 --> 00:19:25,646
You know, what does that loved one know

398
00:19:25,646 --> 00:19:27,329
about the history of their life

399
00:19:27,329 --> 00:19:29,148
or what hopes might
they have, or what does

400
00:19:29,148 --> 00:19:31,107
it say about the connection that they have

401
00:19:31,107 --> 00:19:33,227
to that person that they would be willing

402
00:19:33,227 --> 00:19:35,406
to still try maybe one more time

403
00:19:35,406 --> 00:19:40,406
to continue in their life, and so

404
00:19:40,449 --> 00:19:42,948
it is often, sometimes, it can be

405
00:19:42,948 --> 00:19:45,827
just a shadow or a glimmer,
but there could be something

406
00:19:45,827 --> 00:19:48,747
underneath what's presented that can speak

407
00:19:48,747 --> 00:19:51,150
to a value or internal
state of understanding.

408
00:19:51,150 --> 00:19:52,729
Does that make sense?

409
00:19:52,729 --> 00:19:55,591
Okay, so, this article has a lot

410
00:19:55,591 --> 00:19:57,808
of beautiful examples and talks a lot

411
00:19:57,808 --> 00:20:01,957
about this way of double
listening with people,

412
00:20:01,957 --> 00:20:04,658
and I had just, I don’t
know why I had never

413
00:20:04,658 --> 00:20:07,218
done this before or
since, but at the time,

414
00:20:07,218 --> 00:20:11,879
that this work changed with
this particular client,

415
00:20:12,019 --> 00:20:14,480
I had decided that I love this article,

416
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,341
and every time I read it, I noticed

417
00:20:16,341 --> 00:20:19,260
that I took something
different away from it,

418
00:20:19,260 --> 00:20:22,280
and so I decided that every Sunday night

419
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,740
for eight weeks, I was going
to read the same article

420
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:27,641
to see what happened.

421
00:20:28,659 --> 00:20:30,920
And what's so interesting to me,

422
00:20:32,974 --> 00:20:34,274
and any time I tell this story,

423
00:20:34,274 --> 00:20:35,733
I'm like, okay, I need to do that again

424
00:20:35,733 --> 00:20:38,253
because what happened
is not only in my work

425
00:20:38,253 --> 00:20:41,183
with this person, but in my
work with several other people,

426
00:20:41,183 --> 00:20:44,081
there were some really significant shifts

427
00:20:44,081 --> 00:20:46,302
that happened at that
time, and I just think

428
00:20:46,302 --> 00:20:49,362
that there was something
about my listening

429
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,662
that really must've changed, and so this

430
00:20:51,662 --> 00:20:55,682
is probably somewhere
between week three or five

431
00:20:56,283 --> 00:20:58,222
in my eight-week commitment of reading

432
00:20:58,222 --> 00:20:59,663
the same thing over and over,

433
00:21:00,524 --> 00:21:04,420
that she came in and decided

434
00:21:05,043 --> 00:21:07,962
she wanted to tell me the story about

435
00:21:08,501 --> 00:21:13,501
"the original trauma" in her life,

436
00:21:19,549 --> 00:21:22,027
and she had started to
talk about something

437
00:21:22,027 --> 00:21:23,569
I'd heard for years about the ways

438
00:21:23,569 --> 00:21:26,027
her family of origin
could be disappointing

439
00:21:26,027 --> 00:21:29,569
to her, how she felt let
down or neglected by them,

440
00:21:30,087 --> 00:21:31,849
and she said, "You know, I just..."

441
00:21:32,909 --> 00:21:34,087
I must've asked some questions.

442
00:21:34,087 --> 00:21:35,990
She's like, "You know,
I never have told you

443
00:21:38,976 --> 00:21:40,539
"what originally happened, in terms

444
00:21:40,539 --> 00:21:42,298
"of why I feel this
way, and it's important

445
00:21:42,298 --> 00:21:43,397
"that you know, because I think

446
00:21:43,397 --> 00:21:45,438
it explains a lot about me."

447
00:21:46,637 --> 00:21:49,499
And so the story that she told was that

448
00:21:49,499 --> 00:21:54,499
when she was an infant,
her parents had divorced,

449
00:21:54,912 --> 00:21:57,912
or not divorced, they had separated.

450
00:21:57,912 --> 00:21:59,410
I don't think they were ever married,

451
00:21:59,410 --> 00:22:03,991
but had separated during her
mother's pregnancy with her,

452
00:22:05,512 --> 00:22:09,491
and she was primarily
cared for by her mother

453
00:22:09,970 --> 00:22:12,570
during that time, although her father

454
00:22:12,570 --> 00:22:14,191
had some custody, and
her paternal grandmother

455
00:22:14,191 --> 00:22:16,090
would look after her, as well.

456
00:22:16,612 --> 00:22:20,833
And during her infancy,
there was one period

457
00:22:20,833 --> 00:22:24,313
of time, her father and
paternal grandmother

458
00:22:24,313 --> 00:22:27,792
suspected that her
mother was abusing drugs,

459
00:22:29,150 --> 00:22:30,911
and they had some concerns,
but they were really

460
00:22:30,911 --> 00:22:32,673
trying to keep an eye on it from

461
00:22:32,673 --> 00:22:35,633
the distance that they had, but there was

462
00:22:35,633 --> 00:22:38,333
a several day period where her mother

463
00:22:38,333 --> 00:22:40,910
had had some warning
signs, and then, like,

464
00:22:40,910 --> 00:22:43,413
what is answering the
phone or wasn’t responding,

465
00:22:43,615 --> 00:22:47,108
and after four days of
no contact or response,

466
00:22:47,847 --> 00:22:50,350
the grandmother, in
particular, got quite worried,

467
00:22:51,208 --> 00:22:54,249
and decided to by and check out the house.

468
00:22:54,530 --> 00:22:57,729
As they ended up breaking into the house,

469
00:22:57,729 --> 00:23:00,289
they found that the
children had been left there

470
00:23:00,289 --> 00:23:02,288
for several days.

471
00:23:03,728 --> 00:23:06,409
Both needed to be in
the intensive care unit

472
00:23:06,409 --> 00:23:09,369
for a while, but it was my
client, who was an infant,

473
00:23:09,369 --> 00:23:12,370
and her a young, toddler sister,

474
00:23:14,091 --> 00:23:16,308
and as she told the story,

475
00:23:22,651 --> 00:23:25,751
it was as if all air had left the room

476
00:23:25,751 --> 00:23:28,971
in terms of the pain that she
spoke about the story with,

477
00:23:29,248 --> 00:23:30,710
but there were a couple of things,

478
00:23:30,710 --> 00:23:33,850
as I was listening I found remarkable,

479
00:23:33,989 --> 00:23:37,070
and one was that an infant could live

480
00:23:37,070 --> 00:23:39,813
for several days without any attention.

481
00:23:39,831 --> 00:23:42,453
I mean, there was a
rotten bottle in the crib.

482
00:23:42,611 --> 00:23:45,372
Her diapers were just soaked.

483
00:23:49,290 --> 00:23:52,130
Her sister had fared
a bit better medically

484
00:23:52,130 --> 00:23:53,872
because she was a little more mobile

485
00:23:53,872 --> 00:23:55,891
and was able to, I don’t
know if she ate garbage,

486
00:23:55,891 --> 00:23:58,110
or what she did, but she was able to

487
00:23:58,110 --> 00:24:00,793
consume something and have
some fluids over the time.

488
00:24:01,693 --> 00:24:04,250
But to think of the
vulnerability of an infant,

489
00:24:04,250 --> 00:24:05,991
and that she was alive,

490
00:24:05,991 --> 00:24:09,914
I was just thinking about what a miracle.

491
00:24:10,232 --> 00:24:13,072
And one of the things
also about her story,

492
00:24:13,072 --> 00:24:15,511
she said that her grandmother always said

493
00:24:15,511 --> 00:24:19,451
that what stood out for
her was as the door opened,

494
00:24:19,632 --> 00:24:22,150
and they called out, she cried out,

495
00:24:24,711 --> 00:24:27,774
and that would be a very easy thing

496
00:24:28,253 --> 00:24:31,053
to just miss in this story, but this is

497
00:24:31,053 --> 00:24:33,492
where was really grateful, and I think

498
00:24:33,492 --> 00:24:35,350
that the impact of this article,

499
00:24:35,350 --> 00:24:38,232
because the article was really reinforcing

500
00:24:38,452 --> 00:24:43,452
to me about how skills
and knowledge about life

501
00:24:46,975 --> 00:24:50,029
are present in us in the very beginning,

502
00:24:50,029 --> 00:24:52,830
and I didn't want to think that it was

503
00:24:52,830 --> 00:24:55,859
an automatic response
that infant might have,

504
00:24:55,899 --> 00:24:58,720
to cry out, because I actually would think

505
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,959
that if I thought about the situation,

506
00:25:00,959 --> 00:25:03,680
I'm sorry, I got very
connected to my client,

507
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,680
but, you know, that infant, my client,

508
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:12,479
probably cried out many
times over the previous days,

509
00:25:13,282 --> 00:25:15,640
because that's what infants do.

510
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:17,942
If I think about infants,
that's what infants do.

511
00:25:17,942 --> 00:25:20,662
If infants have a need, they cry out.

512
00:25:21,518 --> 00:25:23,260
We hope that they're responded to.

513
00:25:23,260 --> 00:25:25,201
That this is such a primary part

514
00:25:25,201 --> 00:25:27,880
of we understand attachment and wiring.

515
00:25:28,201 --> 00:25:32,019
What was it that allowed
her after days to cry out?

516
00:25:32,242 --> 00:25:35,046
She probably heard the
noise, but it just...

517
00:25:36,232 --> 00:25:38,853
I just asked my client
when we were talking

518
00:25:38,853 --> 00:25:42,411
if we could just pause
and talk about that cry

519
00:25:42,712 --> 00:25:45,654
and what it might be
emblematic of, and what

520
00:25:45,654 --> 00:25:48,253
she thought it might say about

521
00:25:48,253 --> 00:25:50,894
the type of person that she was.

522
00:25:51,293 --> 00:25:52,631
She said, "I just cried out."

523
00:25:52,631 --> 00:25:54,093
And I'm, like, "Well, no."

524
00:25:54,093 --> 00:25:56,831
You know, I can imagine a lot of infants

525
00:25:56,831 --> 00:25:59,031
might've given up at that point.

526
00:25:59,113 --> 00:26:00,673
In fact, I would imagine that

527
00:26:00,673 --> 00:26:02,712
a lot of infants would be dead.

528
00:26:03,114 --> 00:26:05,213
You know, she was a
parent of three children.

529
00:26:06,382 --> 00:26:10,908
She knew that a lot of infants
could be dead in that moment,

530
00:26:11,106 --> 00:26:13,147
so what was it about you in particular,

531
00:26:13,147 --> 00:26:15,768
that you were both alive,
and that you cried out,

532
00:26:15,768 --> 00:26:18,608
that you had the energy
or desire to connect

533
00:26:18,608 --> 00:26:20,626
in some way that you cried out?

534
00:26:20,626 --> 00:26:22,206
What was that cry about?

535
00:26:22,488 --> 00:26:24,228
What would you call that cry?

536
00:26:24,928 --> 00:26:27,826
And she thought and said, "I think

537
00:26:27,826 --> 00:26:32,268
"I still must've had hope
that somebody would come back

538
00:26:32,469 --> 00:26:35,828
"or that somebody would take care of me."

539
00:26:36,349 --> 00:26:38,736
And in that statement,

540
00:26:43,743 --> 00:26:45,902
you know, there were a
million possibilities

541
00:26:45,902 --> 00:26:48,363
that ended up coming
out of that statement.

542
00:26:51,165 --> 00:26:53,723
Within that statement,

543
00:26:55,724 --> 00:26:57,222
well, I can tell you
some of the directions

544
00:26:57,222 --> 00:26:59,524
that we went to, so we spent a lot of time

545
00:26:59,524 --> 00:27:01,504
thinking about that cry.

546
00:27:01,844 --> 00:27:04,625
What it might say in terms of that infant

547
00:27:04,644 --> 00:27:06,324
and what and she as an infant might've

548
00:27:06,324 --> 00:27:08,144
hoped for for her life.

549
00:27:08,684 --> 00:27:10,645
What it said about who she was

550
00:27:10,645 --> 00:27:12,945
as a person at that young age,

551
00:27:13,123 --> 00:27:15,244
and she really, for the first time,

552
00:27:15,244 --> 00:27:17,065
could identify some different kinds

553
00:27:17,065 --> 00:27:18,857
of meanings about that.

554
00:27:18,857 --> 00:27:21,013
You see, when had really struck me

555
00:27:21,013 --> 00:27:23,097
in my work with this women, for the years

556
00:27:23,097 --> 00:27:26,177
that I'd worked with
her, is how she often,

557
00:27:26,177 --> 00:27:28,435
I mean, one of the reasons why sometimes

558
00:27:28,435 --> 00:27:30,735
I would get frustrated,
even though it seemed

559
00:27:30,735 --> 00:27:35,735
very much how she could
imagine that I could be

560
00:27:35,735 --> 00:27:38,867
helpful to her, but as we were responding

561
00:27:38,867 --> 00:27:42,924
each week to those balls
in the batting cage,

562
00:27:42,924 --> 00:27:45,888
the way that she was describing her life

563
00:27:45,888 --> 00:27:48,928
was that of a passive
recipient to her life.

564
00:27:48,928 --> 00:27:51,568
That things were being done to her.

565
00:27:51,568 --> 00:27:53,268
Things were happening to her.

566
00:27:53,268 --> 00:27:56,768
She could describe her
responses to things,

567
00:27:57,231 --> 00:28:00,271
but so very rarely was she talking about

568
00:28:00,271 --> 00:28:03,570
her personal agency in
moving through life.

569
00:28:03,570 --> 00:28:05,790
And a lot of that had
to do with other kinds

570
00:28:05,790 --> 00:28:08,251
of socio-cultural identity and location.

571
00:28:09,191 --> 00:28:11,811
She was was struggling financially.

572
00:28:12,369 --> 00:28:15,109
She was a single parent with three kids.

573
00:28:16,469 --> 00:28:19,548
Her economic opportunities
had been somewhat limited

574
00:28:20,012 --> 00:28:23,789
in some ways, so she was a
very, very intelligent person.

575
00:28:23,789 --> 00:28:26,850
She just had not had the
opportunity to pursue

576
00:28:27,610 --> 00:28:30,431
post-secondary education
or finish high school.

577
00:28:32,910 --> 00:28:35,751
When she was beginning
to talk about herself

578
00:28:35,949 --> 00:28:39,611
as a infant, who might've had
some hopes for connection,

579
00:28:39,611 --> 00:28:42,791
this was actually the very first time

580
00:28:42,950 --> 00:28:44,972
in our conversation where she could begin

581
00:28:44,972 --> 00:28:48,472
to detail what those hopes
for her life might be

582
00:28:48,952 --> 00:28:51,931
in a different kind of
way, and when she could

583
00:28:51,931 --> 00:28:55,231
talk about how the
taking action of crying,

584
00:28:58,270 --> 00:28:59,850
when she thought about it and began

585
00:28:59,850 --> 00:29:01,661
to talk about it like
it was taking action,

586
00:29:01,661 --> 00:29:03,141
it was a choice to cry out, because

587
00:29:03,141 --> 00:29:04,801
it was a choice to cry out.

588
00:29:04,941 --> 00:29:06,981
It really had different possibilities.

589
00:29:06,981 --> 00:29:08,981
I'm sorry to sort of linger here,

590
00:29:08,981 --> 00:29:11,519
but then it took us to so many places

591
00:29:11,519 --> 00:29:15,401
and so quickly when this began to shift.

592
00:29:16,501 --> 00:29:18,861
And so, like, one of the conclusions

593
00:29:18,861 --> 00:29:21,841
that she came to, within
the next couple of sessions,

594
00:29:22,562 --> 00:29:24,942
was that perhaps she had maintained hope,

595
00:29:24,942 --> 00:29:28,360
and perhaps she had physically survived

596
00:29:28,403 --> 00:29:31,581
because of, actually,
the potential presence.

597
00:29:31,581 --> 00:29:34,217
This is something we'll never ever know

598
00:29:34,217 --> 00:29:36,336
of other experiences of being left

599
00:29:36,336 --> 00:29:38,418
for extended periods of time.

600
00:29:38,697 --> 00:29:42,198
This was not something that
she would want for herself,

601
00:29:42,198 --> 00:29:45,299
but she felt that maybe, if her mother

602
00:29:45,299 --> 00:29:48,560
was actively using
substances at that time,

603
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,498
it was not infeasible that
her mother had left her

604
00:29:51,498 --> 00:29:53,580
for other previous periods of time,

605
00:29:53,757 --> 00:29:55,671
and that maybe she maintained hope,

606
00:29:55,671 --> 00:29:58,952
because her mother had
returned in the past.

607
00:29:59,810 --> 00:30:02,590
She also felt that the
fact she maintained hope,

608
00:30:02,771 --> 00:30:04,511
might say something about her mother's

609
00:30:04,511 --> 00:30:06,551
capacity for parenting.

610
00:30:06,831 --> 00:30:09,831
Although how she has felt about her mother

611
00:30:09,831 --> 00:30:11,831
post-incident and for much of her life

612
00:30:11,831 --> 00:30:15,251
was really around this
massive, massive failure.

613
00:30:16,010 --> 00:30:18,093
She thought if she had had hope,

614
00:30:18,093 --> 00:30:20,511
if she continued to cry out, that also

615
00:30:20,511 --> 00:30:23,512
must speak to times
where she had previously

616
00:30:23,512 --> 00:30:26,793
cried out and had been responded to,

617
00:30:27,114 --> 00:30:30,393
but it wasn’t an all-bad
or all-good experience.

618
00:30:31,053 --> 00:30:33,712
it had been a mixed
experience of some kind

619
00:30:34,052 --> 00:30:38,091
to that to date, and it was
very heartening for her,

620
00:30:38,950 --> 00:30:41,169
because it also fit with the ways

621
00:30:41,169 --> 00:30:46,169
that she had tried to be
a parent for her lifetime,

622
00:30:46,510 --> 00:30:49,139
and some of the things she
valued and was important,

623
00:30:49,139 --> 00:30:52,098
and it was helpful for our just think of

624
00:30:52,098 --> 00:30:54,778
that although she had
always felt that some,

625
00:30:54,778 --> 00:30:56,880
and, you know, as we began to think about

626
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:58,822
what her values were as a parent,

627
00:30:58,822 --> 00:31:00,780
also what her mother's values were,

628
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:02,840
they came clarified, and she could begin

629
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,600
to talk about the ways that she had worked

630
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,460
so hard to never fail her kids.

631
00:31:08,861 --> 00:31:12,001
The way she works so hard
to always be there for them,

632
00:31:12,122 --> 00:31:14,382
but after this story was
told in a certain way,

633
00:31:14,382 --> 00:31:17,280
you know, she said, "You know,
I've always kind of known

634
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,362
"that I've had this commitment
because of what happened."

635
00:31:21,222 --> 00:31:26,222
But it was framed differently,
and she could really see

636
00:31:26,359 --> 00:31:29,841
the intentionality in some
of her parenting choices,

637
00:31:30,060 --> 00:31:34,554
or understand her responses
or why she got so frustrated

638
00:31:34,554 --> 00:31:36,124
over things, or why things
were so important to her

639
00:31:37,694 --> 00:31:39,266
in a different kind of way.

640
00:31:44,606 --> 00:31:47,160
She also really began to think differently

641
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,140
about the experiences
of not being attended to

642
00:31:50,781 --> 00:31:53,761
and in the ways that her
family had attended to needs

643
00:31:53,843 --> 00:31:55,595
in a really different kind of way.

644
00:31:55,595 --> 00:31:57,335
And she said, "You know, it's so funny."

645
00:31:59,454 --> 00:32:02,613
When we had talked about
her history of relationships

646
00:32:03,313 --> 00:32:05,596
or dating relationships
that she would have

647
00:32:05,596 --> 00:32:09,453
that really would get to be kind of

648
00:32:09,453 --> 00:32:11,636
interpersonally sometimes quite scary

649
00:32:11,636 --> 00:32:14,253
over the time that we had seen each other,

650
00:32:14,253 --> 00:32:16,195
she had said, "You know,
therapists always tell me

651
00:32:16,195 --> 00:32:20,532
"that I keep getting
relationships like this,

652
00:32:20,532 --> 00:32:23,593
"but I've never seen that connection."

653
00:32:24,732 --> 00:32:27,292
And it was very hard, because, you know,

654
00:32:27,292 --> 00:32:29,575
from I knew from the
professional literature

655
00:32:29,575 --> 00:32:31,415
or other kinds of things,
that this goes back

656
00:32:31,415 --> 00:32:33,714
to that quadrant of true centered,

657
00:32:33,714 --> 00:32:35,936
you centered, and influential,

658
00:32:35,936 --> 00:32:38,335
if I propose this as a kind of idea

659
00:32:38,335 --> 00:32:41,234
or concept to her, it really was letting

660
00:32:41,234 --> 00:32:43,256
it go at an earlier time.

661
00:32:43,256 --> 00:32:44,996
If she said, no, that's not a good fit

662
00:32:44,996 --> 00:32:47,415
for me, like, it doesn't
help to think about it

663
00:32:47,415 --> 00:32:49,135
this way or have conversations about it

664
00:32:49,135 --> 00:32:52,178
in this way, even if I felt
like, oh, but it is helpful,

665
00:32:52,178 --> 00:32:54,416
like, I had to let it go.

666
00:32:54,416 --> 00:32:56,216
What was so interesting is she led us

667
00:32:56,216 --> 00:32:58,557
right back there after she started

668
00:32:58,557 --> 00:33:00,795
talking about things in a different way,

669
00:33:01,015 --> 00:33:05,175
because she began to talk
about what she was noticing,

670
00:33:05,175 --> 00:33:07,537
as she thought about not being attended to

671
00:33:07,537 --> 00:33:10,396
and being attended to,
about what felt good

672
00:33:10,396 --> 00:33:13,676
sometimes in relationships, and it was so

673
00:33:13,676 --> 00:33:16,519
powerful to witness her articulation

674
00:33:16,519 --> 00:33:19,035
of these very same
concepts but in a way of,

675
00:33:19,035 --> 00:33:21,675
you know, I think that
because of what happened,

676
00:33:21,675 --> 00:33:24,417
when people are very attentive to me

677
00:33:24,417 --> 00:33:26,658
and want to know where
I am, in particular,

678
00:33:26,658 --> 00:33:29,316
you know, for a long time,
that feels very, very

679
00:33:29,316 --> 00:33:31,537
good to me, and then it gets to a point

680
00:33:31,537 --> 00:33:34,055
where it doesn't feel so good anymore.

681
00:33:34,478 --> 00:33:36,548
As soon as she could articulate it from,

682
00:33:36,548 --> 00:33:40,668
like, when she generated the idea,

683
00:33:40,668 --> 00:33:42,628
as opposed to any kind of therapist,

684
00:33:42,628 --> 00:33:45,467
it was a very helpful
idea, and, oh, my God,

685
00:33:45,467 --> 00:33:48,930
I can't tell you how quickly it switched,

686
00:33:48,930 --> 00:33:50,990
because the woman who was, you know,

687
00:33:50,990 --> 00:33:54,227
had an online dating thing,

688
00:33:54,227 --> 00:33:56,709
and, like, it went from
just me hearing about

689
00:33:56,709 --> 00:33:59,328
bad dates to her determining 15 minutes

690
00:33:59,328 --> 00:34:01,549
into a coffee date, like, uh-uh-uh.

691
00:34:01,549 --> 00:34:03,747
Like, this feels kind of good.

692
00:34:03,747 --> 00:34:04,630
It's a warning.

693
00:34:04,630 --> 00:34:07,270
It was just a shift in her empowerment

694
00:34:07,270 --> 00:34:09,747
because part of that was her belief

695
00:34:09,747 --> 00:34:13,189
that she had discerning,
and skills, and knowledge,

696
00:34:13,189 --> 00:34:14,549
and that she could see this,

697
00:34:14,549 --> 00:34:16,350
and she could make that determination.

698
00:34:16,350 --> 00:34:18,808
It was such a shift from
a passive experience

699
00:34:18,808 --> 00:34:21,709
of life to an active experience in life,

700
00:34:21,709 --> 00:34:24,728
that suddenly, she was
taking action so quickly

701
00:34:24,728 --> 00:34:26,528
in so many areas of life.

702
00:34:26,528 --> 00:34:28,989
Like, it's really hard to describe.

703
00:34:28,989 --> 00:34:31,251
In terms of how she had always thought

704
00:34:31,251 --> 00:34:35,911
about withholding food, you know, she

705
00:34:35,911 --> 00:34:37,512
began to think.

706
00:34:37,512 --> 00:34:41,190
Like, she had made some kind of connection

707
00:34:41,190 --> 00:34:43,591
to earlier in her life about, you know,

708
00:34:43,591 --> 00:34:45,651
not loving yourself, not feeling worthy

709
00:34:45,651 --> 00:34:47,429
of love, but she said, "It's interesting

710
00:34:47,429 --> 00:34:49,709
"that it's about food in particular

711
00:34:49,709 --> 00:34:52,489
"when I was so hungry
for that period of time,

712
00:34:52,489 --> 00:34:54,708
"and when I was a kid,
after that happened,

713
00:34:54,708 --> 00:34:56,228
"I know I was eating all the time,

714
00:34:56,228 --> 00:34:58,692
"and I got really fat,
and people teased me."

715
00:34:58,692 --> 00:35:01,730
Then she sort of went to
the other, you know, degree.

716
00:35:01,730 --> 00:35:03,809
Those were her words, her
ways of thinking about it,

717
00:35:03,809 --> 00:35:07,553
and she just really thought about,

718
00:35:08,511 --> 00:35:10,391
you know, if I survived that experience,

719
00:35:10,391 --> 00:35:12,186
like, I had different hopes for myself,

720
00:35:12,186 --> 00:35:15,948
and I want to live by those hopes.

721
00:35:16,230 --> 00:35:17,469
Like she really began to think

722
00:35:17,469 --> 00:35:19,730
about the life she wanted for herself.

723
00:35:21,297 --> 00:35:24,854
The idea of being a survivor wasn’t a

724
00:35:24,854 --> 00:35:26,635
thinly describes idea.

725
00:35:26,635 --> 00:35:29,936
It really had a different kind of meeting,

726
00:35:29,936 --> 00:35:32,136
that she could really talk about the ways

727
00:35:32,136 --> 00:35:34,377
that she had survived a great deal,

728
00:35:34,377 --> 00:35:38,717
including some sort of
engagement with the system

729
00:35:38,717 --> 00:35:41,697
around some of the care for her children

730
00:35:41,697 --> 00:35:44,178
that was disempowering,
and she began to just

731
00:35:44,178 --> 00:35:46,677
speak out on their behalf in advocacy

732
00:35:46,677 --> 00:35:48,557
in a different kind of way.

733
00:35:50,957 --> 00:35:53,387
Her moving from passive to where

734
00:35:53,639 --> 00:35:55,738
so many things were being done to her

735
00:35:55,738 --> 00:35:58,018
and decisions made without,
she just really shifted

736
00:35:58,018 --> 00:36:00,299
where she was in her life.

737
00:36:00,380 --> 00:36:02,078
Like, getting into a driver's seat of life

738
00:36:02,078 --> 00:36:04,139
in a really different kind of way.

739
00:36:04,380 --> 00:36:06,799
So some of the things that, you know,

740
00:36:06,799 --> 00:36:09,199
one person that she talked a lot about

741
00:36:09,199 --> 00:36:12,560
who would appreciate her survivorness

742
00:36:13,499 --> 00:36:15,260
was her paternal grandmother,

743
00:36:15,260 --> 00:36:17,920
who had passed away several years earlier,

744
00:36:20,626 --> 00:36:23,061
and a lot of how we began
to create a new story,

745
00:36:23,061 --> 00:36:26,061
it was almost like her
paternal grandmother's

746
00:36:26,061 --> 00:36:30,860
presence in the room became such

747
00:36:30,860 --> 00:36:32,620
an important part of the work,

748
00:36:32,620 --> 00:36:34,919
and I heard so many more stories about

749
00:36:34,919 --> 00:36:38,180
their relationship or about her childhood,

750
00:36:38,778 --> 00:36:41,918
and and different kinds of ways that

751
00:36:41,918 --> 00:36:45,720
her grandmother appreciated
her and knew her

752
00:36:46,041 --> 00:36:48,420
and saw this way that she was a survivor,

753
00:36:48,420 --> 00:36:52,422
and it was really the combination of

754
00:36:53,180 --> 00:36:56,180
a lot of early stories and
then more recent things

755
00:36:56,180 --> 00:36:59,982
in thinking about her advocacy
for her kids in other ways.

756
00:37:01,401 --> 00:37:05,041
At one point, her eldest son, someone who

757
00:37:05,041 --> 00:37:07,920
would engage in bullying
her, not infrequently,

758
00:37:08,759 --> 00:37:11,759
came in, and we thought about who would be

759
00:37:11,759 --> 00:37:14,462
a good family member
to come in and sort of,

760
00:37:14,462 --> 00:37:17,422
who in her current family constellation,

761
00:37:17,422 --> 00:37:20,922
would know about her and
how she was a survivor.

762
00:37:21,281 --> 00:37:22,982
She identified her oldest son,

763
00:37:22,982 --> 00:37:27,982
and he came in, and it was amazing.

764
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,801
She talked to him about what she

765
00:37:34,801 --> 00:37:36,323
had been learning about herself,

766
00:37:36,323 --> 00:37:38,818
these new appreciations
that she had come to,

767
00:37:38,818 --> 00:37:42,078
in terms of being a
survivor and a fighter,

768
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:44,790
which those ideas were really linked,

769
00:37:44,790 --> 00:37:46,810
because she felt she was a fighter

770
00:37:46,810 --> 00:37:48,051
to survive as an infant,

771
00:37:48,051 --> 00:37:50,410
and he added so many stories about

772
00:37:52,379 --> 00:37:54,059
how he had experienced her in life.

773
00:37:54,059 --> 00:37:56,793
About how being raised by her

774
00:37:56,793 --> 00:37:59,112
or even during times that were scary,

775
00:37:59,431 --> 00:38:01,113
like, when his father had been violent,

776
00:38:01,113 --> 00:38:03,491
or when he had been in residential care

777
00:38:03,612 --> 00:38:05,735
or other kinds of things, how she'd always

778
00:38:05,735 --> 00:38:08,755
been the greatest fighter
that he had known.

779
00:38:08,771 --> 00:38:12,331
How he felt so protected
and cared for by her

780
00:38:12,331 --> 00:38:14,353
over the years, and all of these things

781
00:38:14,353 --> 00:38:16,353
then further added to her experience

782
00:38:16,353 --> 00:38:18,133
as a personal agency.

783
00:38:20,055 --> 00:38:21,852
Does that make sense, or do you have

784
00:38:21,852 --> 00:38:25,003
particular questions about that example?

785
00:38:25,003 --> 00:38:26,245
I mean, I just wanted to sort of...

786
00:38:26,245 --> 00:38:29,843
I mean, that took a lot
of time and more sessions,

787
00:38:29,843 --> 00:38:33,624
but it was amazing, because
from that initial session,

788
00:38:33,624 --> 00:38:36,359
we focused less and less
about the curveballs

789
00:38:36,359 --> 00:38:39,401
and the fastballs of
life, and more and more

790
00:38:39,401 --> 00:38:41,640
about this reshaping of identity,

791
00:38:42,158 --> 00:38:44,881
and as the identity was shaped,

792
00:38:44,881 --> 00:38:47,959
the circumstances of her
life, the stresses of life,

793
00:38:47,959 --> 00:38:49,721
were not changing.

794
00:38:49,799 --> 00:38:53,821
She continued to have
three special-needs boys,

795
00:38:53,821 --> 00:38:56,780
but it was amazing how
not only did she make

796
00:38:56,780 --> 00:38:59,021
some shifts in her dating
life, but suddenly,

797
00:38:59,021 --> 00:39:00,900
had a really different kind of position

798
00:39:00,900 --> 00:39:02,402
and way of holding her ground.

799
00:39:02,402 --> 00:39:04,943
If her son engage in any
kind of verbal bullying,

800
00:39:07,112 --> 00:39:10,732
just so many things shifted where it just

801
00:39:10,732 --> 00:39:13,870
was, like, something awakened in her,

802
00:39:13,870 --> 00:39:17,129
and so she had a different
kind of wherewithal.

803
00:39:17,976 --> 00:39:19,718
That's not really the right use of word

804
00:39:19,718 --> 00:39:21,322
in that moment, but different kind of

805
00:39:21,322 --> 00:39:24,189
way of responding to the world, as she

806
00:39:24,189 --> 00:39:25,969
understood herself differently.

807
00:39:25,969 --> 00:39:28,691
That goes back to the idea about

808
00:39:28,691 --> 00:39:31,281
how so much of our reality is shaped

809
00:39:31,281 --> 00:39:34,939
through the tellings, and the
way that we experience things.

810
00:39:34,939 --> 00:39:37,958
I don’t know if we think about key stories

811
00:39:37,958 --> 00:39:40,419
that we might tell about ourselves,

812
00:39:40,419 --> 00:39:42,677
and how those might shift to the audience

813
00:39:42,677 --> 00:39:46,518
that is hearing them or to
other kinds of experiences.

814
00:39:47,720 --> 00:39:51,039
There was something that she
experienced as transformative

815
00:39:51,459 --> 00:39:55,360
in this work, and I also just found it

816
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,699
to be very powerful to witness this huge

817
00:39:57,699 --> 00:40:00,799
trajectory that she had in her life,

818
00:40:01,261 --> 00:40:03,840
and increasingly, like,
by bringing her son in,

819
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,680
by having her make other connections,

820
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:10,381
reaching out to family
other kinds of things

821
00:40:10,381 --> 00:40:12,661
in different ways, part of what I wanted

822
00:40:12,661 --> 00:40:14,781
to do from the very beginning when I saw

823
00:40:14,781 --> 00:40:16,821
this sort of transformation happening

824
00:40:16,821 --> 00:40:18,860
is I didn't want to be the only person

825
00:40:18,860 --> 00:40:21,942
who was holding onto
this emerging identity.

826
00:40:22,301 --> 00:40:24,382
Right away I wanted to
share it with others

827
00:40:24,403 --> 00:40:27,161
and the critical others
in her immediate life.

828
00:40:27,623 --> 00:40:31,201
That's another way of me staying
decentered as a therapist.

829
00:40:32,141 --> 00:40:34,283
You know, I think any of us might be able

830
00:40:34,283 --> 00:40:38,082
to think of, you know, folks who were

831
00:40:38,082 --> 00:40:40,661
close to us, maybe, in
hard times in our life.

832
00:40:40,661 --> 00:40:42,922
Sometimes it can be hard to maintain

833
00:40:42,922 --> 00:40:44,922
relationships because of what they know

834
00:40:44,922 --> 00:40:47,001
or see or about who we were at that time.

835
00:40:47,001 --> 00:40:48,682
Other times, it's just the opposite

836
00:40:48,682 --> 00:40:51,744
because they know us in our fullness.

837
00:40:52,081 --> 00:40:55,164
For me, you know, I felt that

838
00:40:56,794 --> 00:40:59,879
I didn’t want it to be
an isolated experience

839
00:40:59,879 --> 00:41:02,959
of this new and emerging
self that she was having,

840
00:41:02,959 --> 00:41:06,458
and by really helping, as
she gained more energy,

841
00:41:06,458 --> 00:41:08,949
connecting her to the natural supports

842
00:41:08,949 --> 00:41:12,547
and other people in her
life was really powerful.

843
00:41:12,970 --> 00:41:14,510
There were just shifts in her language

844
00:41:14,510 --> 00:41:15,989
which made me really feel like that

845
00:41:17,654 --> 00:41:19,734
she was in a really different place,

846
00:41:19,734 --> 00:41:22,678
and I just wanted, there's something

847
00:41:22,678 --> 00:41:24,519
with the narrative therapy called

848
00:41:24,519 --> 00:41:26,518
outsider witnessing practice,

849
00:41:26,518 --> 00:41:31,518
and it's just a way of, you
know, just our conversations

850
00:41:31,675 --> 00:41:34,654
overall are turning up the
volume in a new understanding.

851
00:41:34,717 --> 00:41:37,175
It started to be present in
the room without being there.

852
00:41:38,264 --> 00:41:40,766
Her paternal grandmother had been with us

853
00:41:40,766 --> 00:41:42,587
for such a long time, but it was, like,

854
00:41:42,587 --> 00:41:45,307
who else, is there another
person in your family

855
00:41:45,307 --> 00:41:47,606
that would really know
these things about you?

856
00:41:47,606 --> 00:41:50,886
And had a strong suspicion
that her eldest son would,

857
00:41:51,328 --> 00:41:54,085
and so, I said, if he were here with us,

858
00:41:54,085 --> 00:41:56,388
what might he tell us?

859
00:41:56,418 --> 00:41:57,438
- [Woman] (inaudible comment)

860
00:41:57,438 --> 00:41:59,501
- Yeah, yeah, and then,
like, at the session

861
00:41:59,501 --> 00:42:02,602
after that, she said, "You
know, I sat down with him,

862
00:42:02,602 --> 00:42:05,420
"and I talked to him about this,

863
00:42:05,420 --> 00:42:07,331
"and, you know, he had some ideas."

864
00:42:07,331 --> 00:42:09,935
And I said, "Would you be open to the idea

865
00:42:09,935 --> 00:42:11,775
"of him and coming into therapy

866
00:42:11,775 --> 00:42:13,453
"and having a structured way

867
00:42:13,453 --> 00:42:15,475
"where he could respond to these things?"

868
00:42:15,475 --> 00:42:16,996
And she was really interested,

869
00:42:16,996 --> 00:42:18,493
and I talk to him on the phone,

870
00:42:18,493 --> 00:42:20,654
and he was interested,
you know, which is, like,

871
00:42:20,654 --> 00:42:22,875
how great to have, like, a 16-1/2...

872
00:42:22,875 --> 00:42:24,774
You know, he was, like,
16 or 17 at the time.

873
00:42:24,774 --> 00:42:26,635
He was, like, "Okay, yeah, like I wanna

874
00:42:26,635 --> 00:42:28,373
"come into my mom's therapy."

875
00:42:28,373 --> 00:42:33,153
It was just really beautiful to see that

876
00:42:33,177 --> 00:42:34,174
in their relationship.

877
00:42:34,174 --> 00:42:36,815
Not that it would perfectly
go forward from there.

878
00:42:37,017 --> 00:42:40,295
What parent and child relationship does?

879
00:42:40,475 --> 00:42:44,536
But I think it was a very
special moment for them.

880
00:42:46,115 --> 00:42:49,318
I was in an outpatient
context at the time,

881
00:42:49,318 --> 00:42:52,497
and so I really, more or less, held to

882
00:42:52,497 --> 00:42:55,476
that sort of 50-minute hour type of idea.

883
00:42:56,256 --> 00:42:59,257
I think at the time her son came,

884
00:42:59,257 --> 00:43:01,417
we met for an hour and 15 minutes,

885
00:43:01,817 --> 00:43:03,597
which I sort of planned ahead of time

886
00:43:03,597 --> 00:43:05,033
and thought that that might be the amount

887
00:43:05,033 --> 00:43:06,854
of time that would be needed.

888
00:43:07,357 --> 00:43:09,879
But still not so much extra time.

889
00:43:11,236 --> 00:43:13,957
But if I had a context,
like, when I worked,

890
00:43:13,957 --> 00:43:16,336
for example, in the is inpatient unit,

891
00:43:16,336 --> 00:43:19,065
if I had other people come
in, I would play with time

892
00:43:19,065 --> 00:43:20,489
in a really different way.

893
00:43:20,666 --> 00:43:22,949
You know, if time is billed by day,

894
00:43:22,949 --> 00:43:25,709
as opposed to by hour, also those of us

895
00:43:25,709 --> 00:43:28,668
working within a milieu
context have other kinds

896
00:43:28,668 --> 00:43:33,107
of flexibility with our allotment
and how we play with time.

897
00:43:33,607 --> 00:43:36,607
So I can think of times
in the inpatient unit

898
00:43:36,607 --> 00:43:39,130
where I would have
others come in to witness

899
00:43:39,130 --> 00:43:41,650
an emerging identity or type of idea,

900
00:43:41,650 --> 00:43:44,487
and I might do a really,
much longer meeting

901
00:43:44,487 --> 00:43:47,989
at that time, and sometimes even

902
00:43:47,989 --> 00:43:50,149
have multiple layers of responders.

903
00:43:51,469 --> 00:43:54,109
So a lot of that is context,

904
00:43:54,109 --> 00:43:56,126
but in this particular clinical example,

905
00:43:56,126 --> 00:43:58,089
because I was in an outpatient clinic,

906
00:43:58,089 --> 00:44:00,290
I really held to those same times.

907
00:44:00,966 --> 00:44:03,190
During that time, and one
thing that I don’t know

908
00:44:03,190 --> 00:44:05,507
how much I'll talk about is this idea of

909
00:44:05,507 --> 00:44:08,990
therapeutic documents,
and so that's something

910
00:44:08,990 --> 00:44:11,529
that's written about
often in the literature,

911
00:44:11,529 --> 00:44:14,508
and so after that initial session,

912
00:44:14,508 --> 00:44:18,149
knowing what I knew about
outsiders witness responses,

913
00:44:18,788 --> 00:44:23,367
I wrote her a letter about
what I had witnessed,

914
00:44:23,707 --> 00:44:27,569
and sort of using a
particular kind of format

915
00:44:27,569 --> 00:44:30,089
of outsider witnessing, which is to start

916
00:44:30,089 --> 00:44:32,690
with particular words and meanings,

917
00:44:32,950 --> 00:44:35,169
and to connect it to, you know,

918
00:44:35,169 --> 00:44:36,711
my knowledge, and it could be my

919
00:44:36,711 --> 00:44:38,990
personal knowledge of life or clinical.

920
00:44:38,990 --> 00:44:40,510
You know, I sort of did it

921
00:44:40,510 --> 00:44:43,072
in the context of what
I knew about her life,

922
00:44:43,150 --> 00:44:45,451
and what I had known
about our work together,

923
00:44:45,451 --> 00:44:48,470
to go back to sort of
what words had moved me

924
00:44:48,470 --> 00:44:50,647
in our time together and
what I could speculate

925
00:44:50,647 --> 00:44:52,426
about her life, and this is sort of...

926
00:44:52,426 --> 00:44:56,385
and sort of ends about, sort of, my hopes

927
00:44:56,385 --> 00:44:58,366
for our future work together.

928
00:44:58,506 --> 00:45:01,483
So I did spend the time
to write her a letter

929
00:45:01,483 --> 00:45:06,419
which took a lot more
time than my typical note,

930
00:45:06,902 --> 00:45:08,501
but I used it as the note.

931
00:45:08,501 --> 00:45:12,317
And so different people do different kinds

932
00:45:12,317 --> 00:45:16,858
of therapeutic documentation, but for me,

933
00:45:16,858 --> 00:45:20,376
I used periodic letters
throughout that process

934
00:45:20,376 --> 00:45:25,277
to help to sustain, underline, and amplify

935
00:45:25,277 --> 00:45:27,420
certain aspects of the process.

936
00:45:28,738 --> 00:45:33,738
Okay, so going back to
one of the articles, too,

937
00:45:34,069 --> 00:45:36,709
that I posted online is by Angel Ewan,

938
00:45:36,709 --> 00:45:39,607
and she talks a lot about focusing

939
00:45:39,607 --> 00:45:42,567
on responses to problems
and effects to problems,

940
00:45:42,567 --> 00:45:44,377
and she really talks about an article

941
00:45:44,377 --> 00:45:47,335
specifically related to trauma,

942
00:45:47,335 --> 00:45:51,436
and so this gets back to, it's almost like

943
00:45:51,436 --> 00:45:54,919
a similar side-to-side of internal state

944
00:45:54,919 --> 00:45:57,207
of understandings versus intentional

945
00:45:57,207 --> 00:45:59,785
state of understandings,
and so, when we're

946
00:45:59,785 --> 00:46:02,189
having effects conversations,
we're asking things,

947
00:46:02,189 --> 00:46:03,628
like, how did you feel?

948
00:46:03,628 --> 00:46:06,866
How were you affected,
versus how did you respond

949
00:46:06,866 --> 00:46:08,889
and what did you do?

950
00:46:09,607 --> 00:46:13,008
And so, it's a different
kind of conversation

951
00:46:13,008 --> 00:46:16,109
to hear things, like, I felt scared versus

952
00:46:16,109 --> 00:46:18,346
I hid under the bed when I was scared,

953
00:46:19,109 --> 00:46:21,127
or I protected my little sisters

954
00:46:21,127 --> 00:46:23,270
from having to hear our mom being hurt,

955
00:46:23,370 --> 00:46:25,188
as opposed to I blame myself.

956
00:46:25,349 --> 00:46:27,408
Or I'm always anxious and depressed.

957
00:46:27,909 --> 00:46:30,547
There was nothing that I
could do to stop the abuse.

958
00:46:31,647 --> 00:46:33,570
For a child who's talking about

959
00:46:33,570 --> 00:46:36,068
interpersonal violence
between their two parents,

960
00:46:36,068 --> 00:46:37,510
there's nothing that they could do

961
00:46:37,510 --> 00:46:39,648
to stop that abusive relationship.

962
00:46:42,668 --> 00:46:44,984
I feel like these are
not conversations that

963
00:46:44,984 --> 00:46:46,945
are not trying to shift reality,

964
00:46:46,945 --> 00:46:49,904
but it's trying to focus on
actions that people took.

965
00:46:49,940 --> 00:46:51,981
So by protecting your little sisters

966
00:46:51,981 --> 00:46:53,844
from having our being hurt.

967
00:46:53,844 --> 00:46:55,143
Like, I used to sing songs.

968
00:46:55,143 --> 00:46:56,944
Like, I take them outside.

969
00:46:57,343 --> 00:47:02,343
What is the hidden or underlying value

970
00:47:02,765 --> 00:47:05,084
in that action or decision?

971
00:47:05,743 --> 00:47:07,605
What was it about

972
00:47:10,358 --> 00:47:12,580
that there's a not that she, as a child,

973
00:47:12,580 --> 00:47:16,399
could do to protect her
mother, which was painful,

974
00:47:16,860 --> 00:47:19,639
but was it about protecting
others in her family?

975
00:47:21,877 --> 00:47:23,896
How did she know that
she might take that step

976
00:47:23,896 --> 00:47:26,456
or what difference it
might make for her sisters

977
00:47:26,456 --> 00:47:30,497
to not have to hear their mother
being hurt at that moment.

978
00:47:31,248 --> 00:47:33,884
So these are just other kinds of examples.

979
00:47:33,884 --> 00:47:37,886
So in terms of creating a new story,

980
00:47:37,886 --> 00:47:40,121
I'm going to move over here
and read off the thing.

981
00:47:40,121 --> 00:47:41,813
So the first thing that you need to do

982
00:47:41,813 --> 00:47:43,855
is to elicit a unique outcome.

983
00:47:44,955 --> 00:47:47,174
So something that stands in contrast

984
00:47:47,174 --> 00:47:49,534
to the dominant problem story.

985
00:47:49,534 --> 00:47:52,494
And for it to really
have any significance,

986
00:47:52,494 --> 00:47:54,733
we also need to get a lot of details

987
00:47:54,733 --> 00:47:58,155
about that unique moment,
because that detail

988
00:47:58,155 --> 00:48:00,776
will really help us understand the meaning

989
00:48:00,776 --> 00:48:04,549
that's ascribed to that
experience or the significance,

990
00:48:04,549 --> 00:48:09,549
because, for the example that I just used,

991
00:48:10,565 --> 00:48:13,564
it was the crying out or that cry

992
00:48:13,564 --> 00:48:16,163
was something that really became a focus,

993
00:48:16,163 --> 00:48:18,984
and now that's my
suspicion, and, you know,

994
00:48:18,984 --> 00:48:21,865
I have to say, like, I
hypothesized and I secretly

995
00:48:21,865 --> 00:48:24,761
wanted it to be an expression of hope

996
00:48:24,761 --> 00:48:26,142
or not giving up.

997
00:48:27,543 --> 00:48:28,743
I mean, really, like, there were things

998
00:48:28,743 --> 00:48:30,784
that I was rooting for, that
it might have meaning to,

999
00:48:30,784 --> 00:48:32,062
but just like,

1000
00:48:34,542 --> 00:48:36,624
you know, and I might've
been able to offer

1001
00:48:36,624 --> 00:48:38,464
that in the context,
as I suggested to you,

1002
00:48:38,464 --> 00:48:40,744
of, like, I could offer
maybe, was that hope?

1003
00:48:40,744 --> 00:48:42,183
Or was that something, you know?

1004
00:48:42,183 --> 00:48:44,324
I could maybe have generated
three or four things

1005
00:48:44,324 --> 00:48:47,362
that it could be or something
else, to let her name it,

1006
00:48:47,663 --> 00:48:51,364
but I really feel like
where I have often messed up

1007
00:48:51,364 --> 00:48:54,195
and gone right into a centered
and non-influential position

1008
00:48:54,255 --> 00:48:57,733
with narrative therapy, is
when I have gotten too clever.

1009
00:48:57,992 --> 00:49:00,233
When I have decided that
I understand the meaning

1010
00:49:00,233 --> 00:49:02,494
of things and the people
that are talking to me,

1011
00:49:02,494 --> 00:49:04,254
like, when I know what the meaning is.

1012
00:49:04,254 --> 00:49:06,595
You know, like, if I think that I know

1013
00:49:06,595 --> 00:49:08,814
what it is too much, or
I start putting my words

1014
00:49:08,814 --> 00:49:10,934
to their experience, that
is when I have, like,

1015
00:49:10,934 --> 00:49:15,934
taken a right turn away
into ineffectiveness,

1016
00:49:16,694 --> 00:49:17,615
and so,

1017
00:49:21,166 --> 00:49:22,685
so the first thing that one does

1018
00:49:22,685 --> 00:49:24,265
is do a unique outcome.

1019
00:49:24,386 --> 00:49:26,026
I'm going to use this as a visual thing,

1020
00:49:26,026 --> 00:49:28,047
and you have some of
these in your packets,

1021
00:49:28,047 --> 00:49:29,866
so I'm just going to take a quick pause

1022
00:49:29,866 --> 00:49:31,687
and explain what this is.

1023
00:49:32,227 --> 00:49:33,947
You know how I did the map before

1024
00:49:33,947 --> 00:49:37,027
of the good driver story,
with the various incidents?

1025
00:49:38,067 --> 00:49:40,597
How a visual that can
be helpful in thinking

1026
00:49:40,597 --> 00:49:43,899
about a re-authoring story, is to sort of

1027
00:49:43,899 --> 00:49:45,958
think about it in the same way.

1028
00:49:46,378 --> 00:49:51,378
Now, for this example, you
know, we'll do other ones.

1029
00:49:52,218 --> 00:49:54,676
Lots of times, you know,
the good-driver story,

1030
00:49:54,676 --> 00:49:59,137
I told a very linear story,
looking back in time.

1031
00:49:59,359 --> 00:50:01,498
This is actually a clinical
example that I just did

1032
00:50:01,498 --> 00:50:03,177
starting with the cry.

1033
00:50:03,279 --> 00:50:04,756
Unfortunately, we're also starting

1034
00:50:04,756 --> 00:50:07,399
in the most distant past,
but if you think about

1035
00:50:07,399 --> 00:50:09,618
earlier when I was having you think about

1036
00:50:09,618 --> 00:50:12,120
the gentleness or verbal or, you know,

1037
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,258
the empathy, the other kinds of qualities

1038
00:50:14,258 --> 00:50:17,218
that you describe, I had you
focus, first of all, like,

1039
00:50:17,218 --> 00:50:20,160
why that quality out of
all the other qualities

1040
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,089
that you could have thought
about out of yourself,

1041
00:50:22,089 --> 00:50:25,468
I had you focus in the
last 72, you know, 48 hours

1042
00:50:25,468 --> 00:50:28,248
when that might've been
reinforced in some way.

1043
00:50:28,428 --> 00:50:31,370
Most people, when you're
doing a re-authoring story,

1044
00:50:31,370 --> 00:50:34,787
start off usually in action in the present

1045
00:50:34,787 --> 00:50:36,208
or recent past.

1046
00:50:36,268 --> 00:50:37,507
Sometimes an idea.

1047
00:50:37,507 --> 00:50:40,048
But it's usually relatively recent.

1048
00:50:40,990 --> 00:50:45,446
How I think about a re-authoring story,

1049
00:50:45,448 --> 00:50:47,168
if I'm using this visual tool,

1050
00:50:47,168 --> 00:50:50,249
is this is just a way of
mapping your questions

1051
00:50:50,249 --> 00:50:52,647
or the way that the conversation is going,

1052
00:50:54,048 --> 00:50:56,627
meaning questions, and
there's no right or wrong way

1053
00:50:56,627 --> 00:50:58,128
of doing any given story.

1054
00:50:58,128 --> 00:51:01,190
Because I'm going to ask
you to map the transcript

1055
00:51:01,190 --> 00:51:02,887
and story in a little bit.

1056
00:51:04,648 --> 00:51:09,150
Meaning questions, beliefs, values, ideas,

1057
00:51:09,150 --> 00:51:12,487
those tend to be things that would be

1058
00:51:12,688 --> 00:51:14,722
on the top part in terms of an X.

1059
00:51:14,862 --> 00:51:17,123
A bottom part might be actions, steps,

1060
00:51:17,123 --> 00:51:18,710
things that people took.

1061
00:51:18,710 --> 00:51:23,011
So, for example, in my
conversation with her,

1062
00:51:23,011 --> 00:51:26,510
the very first unique outcome,
or exceptional experience,

1063
00:51:26,510 --> 00:51:30,332
in the creation of really
what it meant for her

1064
00:51:30,332 --> 00:51:35,332
to be a fighter and a
survivor, was that cry.

1065
00:51:36,212 --> 00:51:39,953
So that cry was sort of a physical action

1066
00:51:39,953 --> 00:51:41,927
that she began to detail out.

1067
00:51:42,646 --> 00:51:44,867
As she began to detail
out, and I asked her what

1068
00:51:44,867 --> 00:51:46,803
it might say about the type of person

1069
00:51:46,803 --> 00:51:49,064
that she was or what it might have meant,

1070
00:51:49,064 --> 00:51:53,204
she linked it to an idea,
which was, like, hope,

1071
00:51:55,945 --> 00:51:58,448
and so those two became connected.

1072
00:52:00,428 --> 00:52:02,023
You know, she spent some more time

1073
00:52:02,023 --> 00:52:04,286
back in that historical period about

1074
00:52:04,286 --> 00:52:06,404
how she might have known that.

1075
00:52:06,404 --> 00:52:09,665
Previous times her mother had left her.

1076
00:52:09,983 --> 00:52:13,265
Like the sense that she had
been responded to previously.

1077
00:52:16,284 --> 00:52:18,515
She then began to think, well, actually,

1078
00:52:18,515 --> 00:52:20,515
the fact that I'm a fighter and survivor,

1079
00:52:20,515 --> 00:52:22,518
like, that's when the curveballs

1080
00:52:22,518 --> 00:52:24,616
or the fastballs for the week came up.

1081
00:52:24,616 --> 00:52:26,456
Actually, just this
week something happened,

1082
00:52:26,456 --> 00:52:28,575
and, you know, when I heard
back from this program

1083
00:52:28,575 --> 00:52:31,537
my son's in, I did this thing.

1084
00:52:32,456 --> 00:52:34,417
So that came up here.

1085
00:52:35,236 --> 00:52:38,518
And I knew to take that step

1086
00:52:38,518 --> 00:52:40,336
because I knew that it
had been effective before,

1087
00:52:40,336 --> 00:52:42,077
and the person that
the program had told me

1088
00:52:42,077 --> 00:52:44,116
they appreciated it when I called,

1089
00:52:44,638 --> 00:52:46,157
and they appreciated the degree

1090
00:52:46,157 --> 00:52:47,798
of which I'm involved as a parent.

1091
00:52:48,557 --> 00:52:50,637
So, you know, like, you
can sort of see, like,

1092
00:52:50,637 --> 00:52:53,218
over time it's created, and so there's no

1093
00:52:53,218 --> 00:52:54,515
right or wrong.

1094
00:52:54,537 --> 00:52:56,355
Actually, I think that thinking too much

1095
00:52:56,355 --> 00:52:59,478
about how you're sequencing
any set of questions

1096
00:52:59,478 --> 00:53:02,439
means you're not attuned
and engaged into that moment

1097
00:53:02,439 --> 00:53:04,357
of the conversation.

1098
00:53:04,658 --> 00:53:06,677
You might have other
hypotheses or thinking

1099
00:53:06,677 --> 00:53:08,607
about other conversations or things

1100
00:53:08,607 --> 00:53:10,691
that you know about that person,

1101
00:53:10,989 --> 00:53:13,228
but what I say is that all that matters

1102
00:53:13,228 --> 00:53:15,129
at the end of the day, or how I use this

1103
00:53:15,129 --> 00:53:18,329
as a visual tool, is
that what I essentially

1104
00:53:18,329 --> 00:53:22,430
want to build out is a spider web.

1105
00:53:23,169 --> 00:53:24,951
But if I'm thinking about how can I,

1106
00:53:24,951 --> 00:53:28,572
it's called thickening the story.

1107
00:53:29,071 --> 00:53:33,250
If I think about how stories
are created with meaning,

1108
00:53:33,290 --> 00:53:35,892
is if you're sequencing
of events over time,

1109
00:53:35,892 --> 00:53:38,729
and then that's sort of how meanings,

1110
00:53:38,729 --> 00:53:40,231
so the good-driver story was, like,

1111
00:53:40,231 --> 00:53:42,190
a lot of individual
incidents that happened

1112
00:53:42,190 --> 00:53:44,101
over time, and some of those things

1113
00:53:44,101 --> 00:53:46,203
were things that I did, and other things

1114
00:53:46,203 --> 00:53:49,423
were things that I believed about myself

1115
00:53:49,423 --> 00:53:51,162
or other people believed about me

1116
00:53:51,162 --> 00:53:53,501
in terms of my driving,
so you want to have

1117
00:53:53,501 --> 00:53:57,320
a good mix of beliefs and actions,

1118
00:53:57,462 --> 00:53:59,322
and you want to connect those over time,

1119
00:53:59,322 --> 00:54:04,060
and then you have a counter story to being

1120
00:54:04,060 --> 00:54:06,884
a passive victim, to
being a fighting surviver

1121
00:54:06,884 --> 00:54:10,883
that can possibly hold
the same amount of ground.

1122
00:54:10,883 --> 00:54:13,962
You know, if her automatic thought

1123
00:54:13,962 --> 00:54:15,583
for so many years had gone to being

1124
00:54:15,583 --> 00:54:17,283
sort of a passive recipient in her life

1125
00:54:17,283 --> 00:54:20,843
or a victim in her
life, it's really almost

1126
00:54:20,843 --> 00:54:24,002
like building a brand-new, automatic

1127
00:54:24,002 --> 00:54:27,183
way of thinking, or if you
think about neurobiology

1128
00:54:27,364 --> 00:54:29,224
as a metaphor, you want to really kind of

1129
00:54:29,224 --> 00:54:31,343
construct different incidents into

1130
00:54:31,343 --> 00:54:35,285
creating sort of new, automatic
neural network of response.

1131
00:54:35,943 --> 00:54:38,164
So you want to have something
that's really strong,

1132
00:54:38,164 --> 00:54:41,943
and so to do that, it
was the linking actions

1133
00:54:41,943 --> 00:54:44,363
and beliefs over time,

1134
00:54:46,222 --> 00:54:48,684
and so at the end of the day,

1135
00:54:48,684 --> 00:54:51,285
at the back of your packet,

1136
00:54:51,303 --> 00:54:54,168
you'll see, like, an open, blank map

1137
00:54:54,168 --> 00:54:55,813
that I have actually brought into...

1138
00:55:09,550 --> 00:55:11,130
It looks like that.

1139
00:55:11,769 --> 00:55:13,808
So I have actually brought this as a tool

1140
00:55:13,808 --> 00:55:18,448
into the room when I'm meeting with people

1141
00:55:18,448 --> 00:55:20,227
and just sort of randomly...

1142
00:55:20,592 --> 00:55:22,407
If they're, like, "What?"

1143
00:55:22,407 --> 00:55:24,449
You know, like, "Excuse
me, what are you doing?"

1144
00:55:24,768 --> 00:55:26,430
You know, I'm sort of
drawing random lines.

1145
00:55:26,450 --> 00:55:30,222
You know, and I say, I'm trying to

1146
00:55:32,330 --> 00:55:34,103
as I come to understand this,

1147
00:55:34,103 --> 00:55:37,682
how I know about how stories are created

1148
00:55:37,682 --> 00:55:41,201
in an effective way is
if time is an element,

1149
00:55:41,201 --> 00:55:42,703
as well as actions and belief,

1150
00:55:42,703 --> 00:55:44,263
and that's just sort of tracking

1151
00:55:44,263 --> 00:55:45,642
the questions that I'm asking

1152
00:55:45,642 --> 00:55:48,293
or the way that the conversation is going.

1153
00:55:48,293 --> 00:55:52,594
So when we do the
transcript and conversation

1154
00:55:52,594 --> 00:55:53,874
in just a couple of minutes,

1155
00:55:53,874 --> 00:55:55,333
when we get to the re-authoring part,

1156
00:55:55,333 --> 00:55:56,955
I'll have you just play with this.

1157
00:55:56,955 --> 00:55:58,813
For some people, it's,
like, "Oh, this the helpful,

1158
00:55:58,813 --> 00:56:00,833
"little tool that pulls it all together."

1159
00:56:01,057 --> 00:56:02,534
Other people start linking two things,

1160
00:56:02,534 --> 00:56:03,834
and they're, like, "Ugh, I can't listen,

1161
00:56:03,834 --> 00:56:05,493
"and this is absolutely not for me."

1162
00:56:06,373 --> 00:56:09,192
I just offer it as an option.

1163
00:56:09,504 --> 00:56:10,905
- [Woman] Do you share the master plan?

1164
00:56:10,905 --> 00:56:14,045
- Oh, yeah, just like
I would share my, like,

1165
00:56:14,045 --> 00:56:16,425
you know, from the beginning,
if I say that, like,

1166
00:56:16,425 --> 00:56:18,085
I'm writing things down...

1167
00:56:18,686 --> 00:56:21,165
You know, when I worked on
the adolescent inpatient unit,

1168
00:56:21,527 --> 00:56:24,007
what was really a fun practice I got into

1169
00:56:24,007 --> 00:56:27,307
is we would go right in
co-sign our notes sometimes,

1170
00:56:27,307 --> 00:56:28,606
which is a really fun thing to do

1171
00:56:28,606 --> 00:56:30,644
in a medical record in a hospital setting.

1172
00:56:31,388 --> 00:56:34,148
You know, just as a real,
like, thinking about power.

1173
00:56:34,148 --> 00:56:37,228
It's, like, well, how would
you describe this today.

1174
00:56:37,228 --> 00:56:40,326
So you could do a
typical DAP or SOAP note,

1175
00:56:40,326 --> 00:56:43,319
but just to have the power of the person

1176
00:56:43,319 --> 00:56:45,620
being able to name their own experience.

1177
00:56:45,620 --> 00:56:48,619
There's a lot to talk about,
collaborative practices

1178
00:56:48,619 --> 00:56:50,597
in all kinds of documentation,

1179
00:56:50,597 --> 00:56:52,698
but I feel if I'm going
to be sitting there

1180
00:56:52,698 --> 00:56:54,739
with a clipboard and
the fact that, you know,

1181
00:56:54,739 --> 00:56:56,200
I wear glasses and everything else.

1182
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:59,379
I'm often nerdy enough
to have a little pen

1183
00:56:59,379 --> 00:57:01,458
in my pocket, you know, like, I just feel

1184
00:57:01,458 --> 00:57:04,298
like I don’t want this to be some kind

1185
00:57:04,298 --> 00:57:06,680
of machination of therapy
or I don’t ever want

1186
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:09,438
to be the Wizard of Oz behind the curtain.

1187
00:57:09,698 --> 00:57:12,239
That I'm taking notes about something,

1188
00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:15,760
people know they're
always welcome to a copy

1189
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:17,580
of anything that I do.

1190
00:57:17,622 --> 00:57:20,902
That guy that I mentioned,
Art Fischer, who does

1191
00:57:20,902 --> 00:57:23,382
a lot of work with men
who perpetrate violence,

1192
00:57:23,382 --> 00:57:27,163
and one of the things
I've loved about his work

1193
00:57:27,163 --> 00:57:30,481
is he does such amazing
things with transparency.

1194
00:57:30,683 --> 00:57:33,441
He has a big whiteboard in his office,

1195
00:57:33,441 --> 00:57:36,860
and so for things like,
whether it be externalizing

1196
00:57:36,860 --> 00:57:39,362
or mapping a new conversation
or way of thinking

1197
00:57:39,362 --> 00:57:42,681
about things, then he has, like, lots of

1198
00:57:42,681 --> 00:57:44,981
multicolored dry-erase markers,

1199
00:57:45,540 --> 00:57:48,660
and what, I think, he
often does is at the end

1200
00:57:48,660 --> 00:57:51,402
of the time, he'll, like,
use the big white board,

1201
00:57:51,402 --> 00:57:53,140
like as big as one of these blackboards,

1202
00:57:53,140 --> 00:57:55,420
and he'll just take a digital photo of

1203
00:57:55,420 --> 00:57:57,843
the work that they've done on the board,

1204
00:57:57,843 --> 00:58:01,722
and that not only becomes,
like, the primary part

1205
00:58:01,722 --> 00:58:04,393
of the note for the session,
but the person also,

1206
00:58:04,393 --> 00:58:07,641
he can e-mail it to his
client or print it out,

1207
00:58:07,641 --> 00:58:10,674
and so he's talked about people have had

1208
00:58:10,674 --> 00:58:15,063
things on their refrigerator,
that when they have felt

1209
00:58:15,063 --> 00:58:17,333
tempted to engage in a
certain way with a partner

1210
00:58:17,333 --> 00:58:18,842
where they have a
history of violence with,

1211
00:58:18,842 --> 00:58:21,132
they have gone back to
the map of what it is

1212
00:58:21,132 --> 00:58:23,154
that they value or what
their intentions are

1213
00:58:23,154 --> 00:58:25,493
and remember different
statements that were

1214
00:58:25,493 --> 00:58:28,012
written about their previous conversation,

1215
00:58:28,113 --> 00:58:29,872
and it's been helpful to them.

1216
00:58:29,972 --> 00:58:31,973
So there's a beautiful story.

1217
00:58:32,532 --> 00:58:34,654
Some of Michael White's work,

1218
00:58:36,061 --> 00:58:38,362
where a person was
really trying to actively

1219
00:58:38,362 --> 00:58:40,182
take a stand against...

1220
00:58:40,483 --> 00:58:43,442
They were experiencing voices that were

1221
00:58:43,442 --> 00:58:46,462
telling them harmful
messages about themselves,

1222
00:58:46,462 --> 00:58:49,981
as well as, you know, wanting
to harm themselves or others,

1223
00:58:49,981 --> 00:58:54,882
and you gave the example, and that example

1224
00:58:54,882 --> 00:58:56,884
with the beast of, like, someone writing

1225
00:58:56,884 --> 00:58:58,384
a letter to the beast, and so, basically,

1226
00:58:58,384 --> 00:59:00,183
like having a breakup letter.

1227
00:59:00,383 --> 00:59:04,023
This was also sort of a letter
of what this person knew

1228
00:59:04,023 --> 00:59:07,146
about themselves, and
how that was separate

1229
00:59:07,146 --> 00:59:09,703
from what the voices were
telling them about themselves,

1230
00:59:09,725 --> 00:59:13,025
and so there was a moment in
a department store elevator,

1231
00:59:13,604 --> 00:59:15,425
where the voices were really powerful,

1232
00:59:15,565 --> 00:59:17,645
and they just had this
document of knowledge

1233
00:59:17,645 --> 00:59:20,063
in their pocket at all
times, and they just took

1234
00:59:20,063 --> 00:59:22,483
it out and started reading it out loud,

1235
00:59:22,684 --> 00:59:24,826
and what was powerful
about that experience

1236
00:59:24,826 --> 00:59:27,046
is some people, I think,
rushed off the elevator,

1237
00:59:27,323 --> 00:59:30,404
but other people stayed and listened

1238
00:59:30,404 --> 00:59:32,764
to this reading of the
stands that the person

1239
00:59:32,764 --> 00:59:34,786
was taking against the
voices in their life

1240
00:59:34,786 --> 00:59:39,786
and responded in a really
humane and engaging way,

1241
00:59:40,546 --> 00:59:44,284
to appreciate that person's persistence

1242
00:59:44,284 --> 00:59:46,344
about this problem in their life.

1243
00:59:49,204 --> 00:59:51,508
You know, the thing about some
reading in narrative therapy

1244
00:59:51,508 --> 00:59:53,084
is, like, I read book chapters,

1245
00:59:53,084 --> 00:59:54,684
and some that I've read,
like, a million times

1246
00:59:54,684 --> 00:59:57,206
for teaching, and I just get all teary,

1247
00:59:57,206 --> 01:00:00,265
because I find the work is
really moving when it's connected

1248
01:00:00,265 --> 01:00:02,106
to a lot of deep values.

1249
01:00:02,287 --> 01:00:05,047
In the same way, going back to that slide

1250
01:00:05,047 --> 01:00:08,028
of responses versus effects conversations,

1251
01:00:08,028 --> 01:00:11,806
when I've worked in situations where

1252
01:00:11,806 --> 01:00:15,367
the folks that I'm sitting
with have a lot of acuity

1253
01:00:16,105 --> 01:00:18,207
in traumatic experience,

1254
01:00:18,369 --> 01:00:22,163
it's very easy to feel very worn out

1255
01:00:22,163 --> 01:00:23,542
at the end of the day.

1256
01:00:23,542 --> 01:00:27,143
I work a lot with students and working

1257
01:00:27,143 --> 01:00:29,903
with people who are new to the field is

1258
01:00:29,903 --> 01:00:33,744
such a reminder of some
of my early experiences

1259
01:00:33,744 --> 01:00:36,784
in the field where suddenly,
when I was only talking

1260
01:00:36,784 --> 01:00:39,062
to people about painful
things in their life,

1261
01:00:39,463 --> 01:00:42,704
the first few months of working,

1262
01:00:42,704 --> 01:00:45,526
I felt, like, oh, the world is so broken.

1263
01:00:45,866 --> 01:00:49,942
Everyone has been so hurt
by people in their lives.

1264
01:00:50,005 --> 01:00:51,864
It was just heartbreaking to me

1265
01:00:51,864 --> 01:00:53,646
when I first entered the field.

1266
01:00:54,144 --> 01:00:55,906
And I think that that's also because

1267
01:00:55,906 --> 01:00:58,844
I was having a lot of
effects conversations.

1268
01:00:58,944 --> 01:01:00,464
I was having people tell me a lot

1269
01:01:00,464 --> 01:01:03,006
about the things that
had happened to them,

1270
01:01:03,485 --> 01:01:05,345
as opposed to hearing a lot of stories

1271
01:01:05,345 --> 01:01:09,104
about how they responded to
the things that had happened.

1272
01:01:13,533 --> 01:01:15,431
And so, there's a beautiful
Helen Keller quote

1273
01:01:15,431 --> 01:01:20,430
that I can only paraphrase,
but she talks about

1274
01:01:20,430 --> 01:01:22,352
there's a lot of suffering in the world,

1275
01:01:22,352 --> 01:01:25,332
but there's also a lot of
responses to suffering.

1276
01:01:25,332 --> 01:01:27,393
And I got it wrong, but if you do

1277
01:01:27,393 --> 01:01:29,752
Helen Keller and suffering on Google,

1278
01:01:29,752 --> 01:01:32,073
there's a very beautiful
quote that will come up,

1279
01:01:32,073 --> 01:01:35,932
but I think that I have found when I hear

1280
01:01:35,932 --> 01:01:38,452
people's responses to suffering,

1281
01:01:41,811 --> 01:01:46,811
I leave work in a place where
I've often been inspired.

1282
01:01:47,429 --> 01:01:51,029
Like, I hold the pain of the
knowledge of others' suffering

1283
01:01:51,029 --> 01:01:54,350
within inspiration of all the ways

1284
01:01:54,350 --> 01:01:58,269
that they've made life
commitments or changes

1285
01:01:58,269 --> 01:02:00,267
or the actions that
people could take against

1286
01:02:00,267 --> 01:02:03,055
all the odds when they
didn't have a chance,

1287
01:02:03,055 --> 01:02:07,823
it's just a very different way
of hearing about experience

1288
01:02:08,036 --> 01:02:11,756
that is so powerful, and
I just feel like it's

1289
01:02:13,336 --> 01:02:17,314
such a gift, and it's
amazing how that slight shift

1290
01:02:17,314 --> 01:02:19,994
from effects to responses, I think,

1291
01:02:19,994 --> 01:02:22,695
has allowed, like, me
to work in this field

1292
01:02:22,695 --> 01:02:27,075
for 40, 50 more years than
I might have been able to

1293
01:02:27,075 --> 01:02:29,635
if I stayed in effects conversations,

1294
01:02:29,635 --> 01:02:32,176
because practicing with an open heart

1295
01:02:32,176 --> 01:02:35,558
can be very exhausting,
but hearing about other

1296
01:02:35,558 --> 01:02:38,217
people's responses from their hearts

1297
01:02:38,217 --> 01:02:41,817
is really sustaining in many ways.

1298
01:02:42,038 --> 01:02:45,056
Because it's through the
rich details and a new way

1299
01:02:45,056 --> 01:02:48,135
of creating meaning in describing meaning

1300
01:02:48,135 --> 01:02:53,135
that suddenly other links
and other life experiences

1301
01:02:54,197 --> 01:02:58,018
and other stories will
emerge, so if people begin

1302
01:02:58,018 --> 01:03:02,677
to think of a fighter and
a survivor in her life

1303
01:03:02,677 --> 01:03:05,676
in the beginning was really
quite a stretch or a reach,

1304
01:03:05,676 --> 01:03:07,698
but as the details came forward,

1305
01:03:07,698 --> 01:03:10,536
she could think of other
things pretty quickly,

1306
01:03:10,637 --> 01:03:12,596
and once her grandmother's
voice or perspective

1307
01:03:12,596 --> 01:03:14,939
came in, whoa, lots of things were added.

1308
01:03:15,597 --> 01:03:18,578
I've had that same
experience where when I have

1309
01:03:18,578 --> 01:03:23,440
described things, like, one
time I had the privilege

1310
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:25,052
of having Michael White interview me

1311
01:03:25,052 --> 01:03:26,872
for a re-authoring conversation,

1312
01:03:27,212 --> 01:03:31,074
and I learned at that
moment, and I'm such an

1313
01:03:31,074 --> 01:03:34,853
experiential learner,
which is why I got my MSW

1314
01:03:34,853 --> 01:03:39,853
at Smith in the first place,
but I was describing something

1315
01:03:40,873 --> 01:03:42,752
and when I was attributing new meaning

1316
01:03:42,752 --> 01:03:45,532
to a very recent
experience that I had had,

1317
01:03:46,051 --> 01:03:48,273
suddenly, he asked some questions about

1318
01:03:48,273 --> 01:03:50,114
if this had happened in my past,

1319
01:03:50,152 --> 01:03:53,471
and there were stories they
came up from elementary school.

1320
01:03:54,414 --> 01:03:56,513
It was like they were little air bubbles

1321
01:03:56,513 --> 01:03:58,173
that came up from my toes.

1322
01:03:58,233 --> 01:04:02,095
This had not been in my
awareness in decades.

1323
01:04:02,432 --> 01:04:04,675
You know, I wouldn't have
even known that I remembered

1324
01:04:04,675 --> 01:04:07,753
such an experience,
but it really came from

1325
01:04:07,753 --> 01:04:10,694
that detail and that particular meaning

1326
01:04:10,694 --> 01:04:13,955
that I talked about in
that first experience.

1327
01:04:13,955 --> 01:04:15,854
It was the most amazing thing.

1328
01:04:15,854 --> 01:04:18,013
I was, like, okay, if I learn nothing else

1329
01:04:18,013 --> 01:04:20,573
from this conversation,
I leanrned an awful lot

1330
01:04:20,573 --> 01:04:22,985
about myself, but if I
learned nothing else,

1331
01:04:22,985 --> 01:04:25,483
it's really to focus
on getting that detail

1332
01:04:25,483 --> 01:04:28,365
and slowing down at the beginning,

1333
01:04:28,365 --> 01:04:30,903
and then to trust that
more things will come,

1334
01:04:30,903 --> 01:04:33,464
more things that the
person in front of me can't

1335
01:04:33,464 --> 01:04:36,365
imagine will come, that
I can't imagine will come

1336
01:04:36,365 --> 01:04:38,303
as the therapist, those other stories

1337
01:04:38,303 --> 01:04:41,186
will come out in droves, if I slow down

1338
01:04:41,186 --> 01:04:43,204
enough in the beginning, get detail,

1339
01:04:43,204 --> 01:04:45,003
and trust that they're there.

1340
01:04:45,965 --> 01:04:48,324
So it's a cool thing.

1341
01:04:48,725 --> 01:04:50,684
I hope you guys get to experience it.

1342
01:04:51,026 --> 01:04:56,026
All right, so on your
slides, and you'll maybe

1343
01:04:56,084 --> 01:04:59,155
hear some of these, too,
because we'll go into

1344
01:04:59,155 --> 01:05:01,194
the transcript in just a moment.

1345
01:05:02,752 --> 01:05:06,053
But the examples of action questions.

1346
01:05:06,053 --> 01:05:07,293
Tell me more about that.

1347
01:05:07,293 --> 01:05:08,813
What happened?

1348
01:05:08,813 --> 01:05:09,635
Where were you?

1349
01:05:09,635 --> 01:05:10,836
Who was there?

1350
01:05:10,836 --> 01:05:13,114
So again, some of that secondary detail.

1351
01:05:13,135 --> 01:05:14,767
Was this the first time
that you had done this,

1352
01:05:14,767 --> 01:05:16,367
or we're there other times?

1353
01:05:16,367 --> 01:05:17,589
How did you know to do that?

1354
01:05:17,589 --> 01:05:19,868
Did you plan to do this?

1355
01:05:19,868 --> 01:05:21,987
Had you thought about
taking this step before?

1356
01:05:21,989 --> 01:05:22,989
Who helped you?

1357
01:05:22,989 --> 01:05:24,578
What would you call this action or step?

1358
01:05:24,578 --> 01:05:26,298
Who in your life would be the least

1359
01:05:26,298 --> 01:05:28,119
surprised that you did this.

1360
01:05:28,119 --> 01:05:30,459
Meaning questions, and that last one's

1361
01:05:30,459 --> 01:05:32,440
sort of traversed both things.

1362
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:35,881
What is it like to consider
that you are able to do that?

1363
01:05:35,881 --> 01:05:37,751
What do you think that taking this step

1364
01:05:37,751 --> 01:05:39,850
might say about what it is
that's important to you?

1365
01:05:40,012 --> 01:05:43,072
Do actions like this fit with
your hopes for your life?

1366
01:05:44,252 --> 01:05:46,772
If I were to ask you what kind of kid

1367
01:05:46,772 --> 01:05:48,332
can do this sort of
thing, what would you say?

1368
01:05:48,332 --> 01:05:50,172
Or adult?

1369
01:05:50,172 --> 01:05:52,333
Is this important to you?

1370
01:05:52,333 --> 01:05:53,459
Why or why not?

1371
01:05:53,459 --> 01:05:56,101
Who in your life knows
about these hopes of yours?

1372
01:05:57,019 --> 01:05:59,020
So I talked already about mapping.

1373
01:05:59,020 --> 01:06:01,762
It's a way that can be
useful to track questions

1374
01:06:01,762 --> 01:06:03,339
or a way of keeping notes.

1375
01:06:05,963 --> 01:06:08,482
And I demonstrated, so here is the map.

1376
01:06:08,482 --> 01:06:11,261
I feel like Xs are useful
because I've used them

1377
01:06:11,261 --> 01:06:13,682
as I describe myself being a good driver,

1378
01:06:13,682 --> 01:06:15,522
but actually, if I were
sitting with people,

1379
01:06:15,522 --> 01:06:19,006
I might put a word or
two in and so that way,

1380
01:06:19,006 --> 01:06:22,626
because also, as people tell these stories

1381
01:06:22,626 --> 01:06:26,080
and go in different directions,

1382
01:06:26,859 --> 01:06:29,541
sometimes the time really stretches out,

1383
01:06:30,281 --> 01:06:32,501
because we're going in unexpected things,

1384
01:06:32,539 --> 01:06:34,902
and as people are making
new links or connections

1385
01:06:34,902 --> 01:06:39,902
together I can follow it really easily.

1386
01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:43,181
Just to look at a map like
this with just a word or two

1387
01:06:43,181 --> 01:06:46,741
in various locations, I can
almost remember verbatim

1388
01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:50,820
the entire conversation,
looking back later.

1389
01:06:56,843 --> 01:06:58,884
It really shifted Rhonda's understanding,

1390
01:06:58,884 --> 01:07:02,524
for example, when the anger was matched

1391
01:07:02,524 --> 01:07:05,364
with the self-hate into
really see those connections,

1392
01:07:05,364 --> 01:07:07,883
but it was really, I
think, I wanted to take

1393
01:07:07,883 --> 01:07:11,381
a lot of care as would the school,

1394
01:07:11,381 --> 01:07:13,683
if they were present
in the room or as would

1395
01:07:13,683 --> 01:07:15,820
Rhonda about, like, the whole reason she

1396
01:07:15,820 --> 01:07:18,842
was getting into therapy at
a relatively early period

1397
01:07:18,842 --> 01:07:21,322
in terms of angry, acting out behaviors,

1398
01:07:21,322 --> 01:07:23,962
and before, there have
been tremendous escalation.

1399
01:07:24,104 --> 01:07:25,955
Like that math class
incident was about as bad

1400
01:07:25,955 --> 01:07:29,496
as it had gotten, but this still was so

1401
01:07:29,496 --> 01:07:31,775
outside of the norm for this kid,

1402
01:07:32,034 --> 01:07:37,034
and I do feel like what
was really helpful to see,

1403
01:07:42,349 --> 01:07:44,767
where some of these
changes were linked to,

1404
01:07:44,767 --> 01:07:46,768
as soon as he started to verbalize that

1405
01:07:46,768 --> 01:07:48,548
part of the a protective way was he wanted

1406
01:07:48,548 --> 01:07:51,568
to sort of push people away
before he got rejected by them,

1407
01:07:52,570 --> 01:07:54,349
and we talked about how effective

1408
01:07:54,349 --> 01:07:55,890
was the anger in doing that?

1409
01:07:55,890 --> 01:07:57,649
Or what were some of the things that

1410
01:07:57,649 --> 01:08:02,649
the anger had him doing?

1411
01:08:02,749 --> 01:08:04,290
So, like, when we first started talking

1412
01:08:04,290 --> 01:08:07,089
about actions effects for the actions,

1413
01:08:07,089 --> 01:08:10,636
that's the way he began
to verbalize things.

1414
01:08:10,636 --> 01:08:12,357
It didn’t quite fit with his, you know,

1415
01:08:12,357 --> 01:08:14,938
pure release of anger response picture,

1416
01:08:14,997 --> 01:08:18,799
and really, this quickly sort of became

1417
01:08:18,799 --> 01:08:19,871
a self-hate thing, so initially, I think,

1418
01:08:19,871 --> 01:08:21,412
before the self-hate was even involved,

1419
01:08:21,412 --> 01:08:23,731
at right around that
point, I felt like, gosh,

1420
01:08:23,731 --> 01:08:25,672
I know if I asked him at this point

1421
01:08:25,672 --> 01:08:28,549
if the anger is working for
him or not working for him,

1422
01:08:28,549 --> 01:08:30,810
it probably is going to be a no,

1423
01:08:30,810 --> 01:08:34,228
because there is a sadness
and a disconnection

1424
01:08:34,228 --> 01:08:36,689
that he was verbalizing, and so we,

1425
01:08:36,689 --> 01:08:39,988
you know, I think that
I would be surprised

1426
01:08:39,988 --> 01:08:43,067
if we didn't go back and
address it more explicitly,

1427
01:08:43,067 --> 01:08:45,468
but it was really almost,
like, in talking about it

1428
01:08:45,468 --> 01:08:47,431
in thinking about it in this way,

1429
01:08:49,543 --> 01:08:50,845
and also thinking about his history

1430
01:08:50,845 --> 01:08:54,424
of relationships, like, I think he really

1431
01:08:54,424 --> 01:08:56,905
was missing more of his
friends that he realized.

1432
01:08:56,905 --> 01:08:59,564
It was the sort of, like, and angry hurt

1433
01:08:59,564 --> 01:09:01,465
about being rejected by his girlfriend

1434
01:09:02,426 --> 01:09:04,645
that was having him acting in angry

1435
01:09:04,645 --> 01:09:06,486
and pretty stupid ways.

1436
01:09:07,266 --> 01:09:09,824
And that's, he might
describe it as stupid.

1437
01:09:09,826 --> 01:09:12,985
I think he did but not so effective ways

1438
01:09:13,085 --> 01:09:14,747
is kind of what I would say.

1439
01:09:18,225 --> 01:09:20,887
If any continuing behavior
would have happened

1440
01:09:20,887 --> 01:09:22,466
after we talked about
that, I would definitely

1441
01:09:22,466 --> 01:09:23,986
go back to that and keep looking

1442
01:09:23,986 --> 01:09:25,781
at the effects and the consequences,

1443
01:09:25,781 --> 01:09:27,502
and how that fit or didn't fit

1444
01:09:27,502 --> 01:09:30,703
for him in terms of his hopes
or his values for his life.

1445
01:09:31,104 --> 01:09:35,403
You know, I feel like, what's
helpful when I'm engaging

1446
01:09:35,403 --> 01:09:37,243
with other systems that are providing

1447
01:09:37,243 --> 01:09:39,823
some kind of consequence or censure,

1448
01:09:40,083 --> 01:09:42,875
both in this case with
his mom and the school,

1449
01:09:43,116 --> 01:09:45,196
you know, I felt like my position was then

1450
01:09:45,196 --> 01:09:46,975
to really help him reflect and evaluate

1451
01:09:46,975 --> 01:09:49,236
on those effects, and whether or not

1452
01:09:49,236 --> 01:09:51,014
it was really working for him.

1453
01:09:51,014 --> 01:09:53,036
And the minute he started talking about

1454
01:09:53,036 --> 01:09:55,375
how the anger and self-hate had different

1455
01:09:55,375 --> 01:09:57,849
kinds of hopes for his
life than his hopes,

1456
01:09:57,849 --> 01:10:00,267
I felt like that's easy
language to continue

1457
01:10:00,267 --> 01:10:02,629
to go back to and revisit, if anger

1458
01:10:02,629 --> 01:10:05,369
should continue to be any kind of

1459
01:10:05,369 --> 01:10:07,449
ongoing issue or problem.

1460
01:10:07,648 --> 01:10:09,451
I mean, like, the monosyllabic teenagers

1461
01:10:09,451 --> 01:10:14,330
or the less flexible family narratives

1462
01:10:14,709 --> 01:10:16,590
are ones that you're not
going to see in, like,

1463
01:10:16,590 --> 01:10:19,808
a training context as often, because

1464
01:10:19,808 --> 01:10:21,669
it would just be a lot more reading,

1465
01:10:21,669 --> 01:10:24,308
and there's quiet for
10 minutes. (laughing)

1466
01:10:26,395 --> 01:10:28,047
Long silence.

1467
01:10:28,326 --> 01:10:30,828
And they don’t make as
good training examples,

1468
01:10:30,828 --> 01:10:34,846
but I do have to say,
you know, one of the joys

1469
01:10:34,846 --> 01:10:37,946
of having Michael White as
a teacher for a long time,

1470
01:10:37,946 --> 01:10:40,962
is, like, he would use a lot of video,

1471
01:10:41,423 --> 01:10:46,001
and it was really helpful
to see him do work

1472
01:10:47,006 --> 01:10:49,363
with very young kids with
some pretty significant

1473
01:10:49,363 --> 01:10:52,962
cognitive and verbal delays, and it's just

1474
01:10:53,082 --> 01:10:56,934
to me that, and I also
seen him do work with

1475
01:10:56,934 --> 01:11:00,132
people who were actively
experiencing psychotic symptoms.

1476
01:11:00,234 --> 01:11:04,096
It's a different kind
of framework to assume

1477
01:11:04,096 --> 01:11:05,912
that there's a meaning-making process

1478
01:11:05,912 --> 01:11:08,691
that is embedded within delusional

1479
01:11:08,691 --> 01:11:10,392
or other kinds of content.

1480
01:11:12,344 --> 01:11:15,144
Again, it's not that you
are agreeing with delusions,

1481
01:11:15,144 --> 01:11:17,006
like, aligning with
the delusions, but it's

1482
01:11:17,006 --> 01:11:19,278
really a different kind of way in

1483
01:11:19,278 --> 01:11:23,321
engaging with understanding
that experience,

1484
01:11:23,321 --> 01:11:26,339
and that there can be
questions about meaning

1485
01:11:26,339 --> 01:11:27,639
that were answered well.

1486
01:11:27,639 --> 01:11:29,720
It's just, again, it's sort
of, like, with a question

1487
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:31,600
with a concrete thing, it's,
like, "What are the ways

1488
01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:34,459
"that I can make this question smaller?"

1489
01:11:34,459 --> 01:11:36,538
Because people can
really begin to get some

1490
01:11:36,538 --> 01:11:39,120
momentum and roll with with abstraction,

1491
01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:41,181
but there's a equal amount of times

1492
01:11:41,181 --> 01:11:42,520
where there's, "I don’t know."

1493
01:11:42,520 --> 01:11:45,080
And so I think that making it smaller,

1494
01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:47,941
offering choices, rephrasing,
these are all things

1495
01:11:47,941 --> 01:11:50,880
we do no matter what theoretical
perspective we're doing.

1496
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:53,381
You know, another thing
that I was talking about

1497
01:11:53,381 --> 01:11:56,640
at the break, too, is
that I think that I have

1498
01:11:56,640 --> 01:11:58,799
gone transparent quite regularly too.

1499
01:11:58,799 --> 01:12:00,922
It's like, you know, I am trying to talk

1500
01:12:00,922 --> 01:12:02,680
about this in a particular way.

1501
01:12:02,680 --> 01:12:04,562
I'm doing that because.

1502
01:12:04,562 --> 01:12:06,482
You know, in my experience in doing it

1503
01:12:06,482 --> 01:12:08,602
this way has been, would you be willing

1504
01:12:08,602 --> 01:12:10,481
to try to explore this?

1505
01:12:10,780 --> 01:12:13,162
And in that way, I can
make sometimes slight

1506
01:12:13,162 --> 01:12:15,241
shifts or corrections or kind of...

1507
01:12:15,549 --> 01:12:17,589
Could we say it like, the such and such?

1508
01:12:17,589 --> 01:12:19,829
You know, and, like, it's...

1509
01:12:21,878 --> 01:12:23,660
So there are lots of
different kinds of choices

1510
01:12:23,660 --> 01:12:25,758
in terms of helping it be clear to people

1511
01:12:25,758 --> 01:12:28,199
about what my intentions or hopes are.

1512
01:12:28,299 --> 01:12:30,659
You know, and sometimes I'll
really ask a dud question,

1513
01:12:30,819 --> 01:12:32,180
and people will sort of look at me,

1514
01:12:32,180 --> 01:12:34,659
and I'm, like, oh, well,
like, I think, you know.

1515
01:12:34,659 --> 01:12:36,180
And then it's kind of fun to be, like,

1516
01:12:36,180 --> 01:12:37,518
well, that was kind of a dud question.

1517
01:12:37,518 --> 01:12:40,500
You what I was hoping for
and my intention behind

1518
01:12:40,500 --> 01:12:42,819
that question was such and such.

1519
01:12:42,819 --> 01:12:43,689
Or I was kind of --

1520
01:12:43,689 --> 01:12:45,201
- [Woman] Did you say dud or dumb?

1521
01:12:45,201 --> 01:12:46,290
- Dud, dud.

1522
01:12:46,290 --> 01:12:49,426
Like a question that's like, what?

1523
01:12:49,426 --> 01:12:51,429
So if just know that I
don’t even really know

1524
01:12:51,429 --> 01:12:52,687
how to make the smaller.

1525
01:12:52,687 --> 01:12:55,508
I think I just sort of
missed it altogether,

1526
01:12:55,568 --> 01:12:58,743
and it's been really
helpful with some people,

1527
01:12:58,743 --> 01:13:00,865
and even some monosyllabic teenagers.

1528
01:13:01,746 --> 01:13:04,027
It's not like I'm just
looking for the articulate,

1529
01:13:04,027 --> 01:13:05,803
insightful adult can do this.

1530
01:13:06,126 --> 01:13:09,686
You know, this is what
I was kind of hoping for

1531
01:13:09,686 --> 01:13:11,263
when I asked that question.

1532
01:13:11,263 --> 01:13:13,086
Can you think of a better way to ask it?

1533
01:13:13,086 --> 01:13:14,166
Isn't that fun?

1534
01:13:14,166 --> 01:13:15,743
You know, the kids would
come back and be, like,

1535
01:13:15,743 --> 01:13:17,525
"Oh, yeah, like, this is
what you should have said."

1536
01:13:17,525 --> 01:13:18,907
And I'm like, okay, and
then I'll, like, say that,

1537
01:13:18,907 --> 01:13:20,569
and they're, like, okay, and (laughing)...

1538
01:13:25,060 --> 01:13:26,900
I mean, one of the favorite
times that I really

1539
01:13:26,900 --> 01:13:28,199
got stuck on something,
I was, like, wow, like,

1540
01:13:28,199 --> 01:13:31,340
I once said to a client,
"Like, wow, if you were me,

1541
01:13:31,340 --> 01:13:32,759
"what would you ask next?"

1542
01:13:32,759 --> 01:13:34,119
And they had a question right there.

1543
01:13:34,119 --> 01:13:36,239
And I was, like, oh, great. (laughing)

1544
01:13:36,239 --> 01:13:38,832
And I think that idea of, I mean,

1545
01:13:39,060 --> 01:13:41,901
I wouldn't do that every
session, thankfully.

1546
01:13:41,901 --> 01:13:44,678
You know, but there was an
old article that I loved.

1547
01:13:44,678 --> 01:13:47,661
It was many years ago.

1548
01:13:49,068 --> 01:13:51,281
I think it was published in
the early 90s or something,

1549
01:13:51,281 --> 01:13:54,752
but it was a therapist in California

1550
01:13:54,889 --> 01:13:56,931
who actually was sitting with a client

1551
01:13:56,931 --> 01:13:59,540
and had just come back
from a narrative therapy

1552
01:13:59,540 --> 01:14:02,398
conference and had gotten really stuck,

1553
01:14:02,639 --> 01:14:06,459
and so they were sitting,
she and her client

1554
01:14:06,459 --> 01:14:09,119
were sitting in their office,
and they just decided...

1555
01:14:09,760 --> 01:14:11,338
They described their stuckedness,

1556
01:14:11,338 --> 01:14:13,583
and they such a fax off to New Zealand.

1557
01:14:13,978 --> 01:14:16,434
And it just was a really
odd time of night there,

1558
01:14:16,434 --> 01:14:18,293
but David Epstein, who was one of the

1559
01:14:18,293 --> 01:14:20,094
primary theorists and narrative therapy

1560
01:14:20,094 --> 01:14:22,375
just happened to be
sitting by the fax machine,

1561
01:14:22,853 --> 01:14:27,134
and so, like, faxed back,
and so within the session,

1562
01:14:27,134 --> 01:14:29,316
there were like all these
faxes going back and forth

1563
01:14:29,316 --> 01:14:30,856
to New Zealand that I think,

1564
01:14:30,856 --> 01:14:33,153
oh, the phone bill, you know? (laughing)

1565
01:14:33,515 --> 01:14:36,893
But at the same time, it is this idea,

1566
01:14:40,515 --> 01:14:43,535
like this liberatory thing of if I step

1567
01:14:43,535 --> 01:14:46,855
out from being the expert, I just feel

1568
01:14:46,855 --> 01:14:49,096
the expansive space in the room

1569
01:14:49,096 --> 01:14:51,656
to breathe, and, like, how fun is it

1570
01:14:51,656 --> 01:14:53,739
to be able to periodically,
if you need to,

1571
01:14:53,739 --> 01:14:55,535
ask the person who's consulting you,

1572
01:14:55,535 --> 01:14:57,998
"What would you ask next?"

1573
01:14:58,034 --> 01:15:01,077
And part of my willing
to do this, I think,

1574
01:15:01,077 --> 01:15:05,136
has a lot to do with
working with young kids.

1575
01:15:05,176 --> 01:15:06,936
I remember a very memorable session

1576
01:15:06,936 --> 01:15:09,676
I had the young persons where
they walked into my office

1577
01:15:09,676 --> 01:15:12,876
first and, like, that
in my chair and said,

1578
01:15:12,876 --> 01:15:14,738
"Okay, I'm gonna be me and you be..."

1579
01:15:14,738 --> 01:15:16,636
Yeah, I'm gonna be you and you be me.

1580
01:15:16,636 --> 01:15:19,600
And that was a really fun session.

1581
01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:21,956
We did it for the whole session,

1582
01:15:21,956 --> 01:15:24,637
but it ended up being,
like, very externalizing.

1583
01:15:24,697 --> 01:15:26,337
And it was fun, because I could be her,

1584
01:15:26,337 --> 01:15:27,839
and I could go, "Did I get that right."

1585
01:15:27,839 --> 01:15:29,158
And she's, like, "No-no, like this is what

1586
01:15:29,158 --> 01:15:29,985
"you should have said."

1587
01:15:29,985 --> 01:15:33,049
And then I was, "God, you have really

1588
01:15:33,049 --> 01:15:34,905
"much better questions today."

1589
01:15:34,905 --> 01:15:37,510
And she's, like, I know. (laughing)

1590
01:15:39,548 --> 01:15:41,189
You should be me more often.

1591
01:15:41,247 --> 01:15:45,888
So I think that there can
be a way of playfulness.

1592
01:15:46,807 --> 01:15:49,287
Like I was just saying, Lily had asked

1593
01:15:49,287 --> 01:15:51,246
about, you are thinking about a client

1594
01:15:51,246 --> 01:15:54,468
that was struggling with
some eating disorder issues

1595
01:15:54,468 --> 01:15:56,770
right now, and there's a wonderful website

1596
01:15:56,770 --> 01:15:58,630
specifically about using narrative

1597
01:15:58,630 --> 01:16:00,668
approaches with an eating disorders.

1598
01:16:00,668 --> 01:16:02,530
It's one of the huge ways that

1599
01:16:02,530 --> 01:16:04,587
it's been a very popular theory.

1600
01:16:04,587 --> 01:16:06,729
There's also a great book with the name of

1601
01:16:06,729 --> 01:16:09,111
"Biting The Hand That Starves You."

1602
01:16:09,111 --> 01:16:10,626
And there's some great titles

1603
01:16:10,626 --> 01:16:12,429
in the narrative therapy literature.

1604
01:16:12,470 --> 01:16:15,588
Another one is Playful
Approaches to Serious Problems.

1605
01:16:16,170 --> 01:16:18,269
This is a great one for working with kids,

1606
01:16:18,269 --> 01:16:20,026
as well as, I really like

1607
01:16:20,026 --> 01:16:23,048
Narrative Therapy with
Children and Adolescents.

1608
01:16:23,048 --> 01:16:24,648
And there's several books by that title,

1609
01:16:24,648 --> 01:16:25,731
and they're both good.

1610
01:16:25,731 --> 01:16:27,890
Biting The Hand That Starves You.

1611
01:16:32,881 --> 01:16:34,982
On that subject of eating disorders,

1612
01:16:34,982 --> 01:16:36,361
I was at a narrative conference,

1613
01:16:36,361 --> 01:16:39,515
and there's another really
good but very different book

1614
01:16:39,515 --> 01:16:42,917
by a public health researcher
named Helen Gremillion,

1615
01:16:44,075 --> 01:16:46,435
and she's done some
writing in their community,

1616
01:16:46,435 --> 01:16:47,995
but she's a public health researcher

1617
01:16:47,995 --> 01:16:49,995
who actually found,

1618
01:16:49,995 --> 01:16:53,615
and this goes back to
how we can be very good

1619
01:16:53,635 --> 01:16:58,593
about when we diagnose
someone with something,

1620
01:16:58,594 --> 01:17:01,055
it's sort of a way of locating
the problem within someone.

1621
01:17:01,314 --> 01:17:04,197
She did this sort of global research

1622
01:17:04,197 --> 01:17:07,155
and found, and there's a whole book on it,

1623
01:17:07,155 --> 01:17:09,095
and I'm just trying to
remember what it's...

1624
01:17:11,995 --> 01:17:14,015
I think that Biting The
Hand That Starves You

1625
01:17:14,015 --> 01:17:16,333
is by Epston-Maisel and Ali Bordon.

1626
01:17:17,055 --> 01:17:20,554
But she had another good title as well,

1627
01:17:20,554 --> 01:17:22,735
but what she discovered in her research

1628
01:17:22,735 --> 01:17:25,554
and her book is really
interesting is that there's

1629
01:17:25,554 --> 01:17:29,493
there's an actual price point
in a gross national product,

1630
01:17:30,234 --> 01:17:33,267
as countries are in certain
developing economies,

1631
01:17:33,267 --> 01:17:37,387
there actually can be a point
where the average citizen

1632
01:17:37,387 --> 01:17:39,579
gets a certain percentage of income

1633
01:17:39,579 --> 01:17:42,600
or where the gross national
product is at a certain point.

1634
01:17:42,600 --> 01:17:45,788
I can't fully explain how
this number is figured out,

1635
01:17:45,788 --> 01:17:49,130
but I can tell you basically
once household median income

1636
01:17:49,130 --> 01:17:51,910
is sort of at a certain place
or in certain percentage,

1637
01:17:53,542 --> 01:17:57,180
suddenly, anorexia
nervosa starts to appear

1638
01:17:57,180 --> 01:17:59,799
in females in that population.

1639
01:18:00,222 --> 01:18:02,742
You know, later I think,
like now, we really see

1640
01:18:02,742 --> 01:18:05,721
a lot of anorexia nervosa
with young males, as well.

1641
01:18:06,800 --> 01:18:08,542
I think it continues to be gendered,

1642
01:18:08,542 --> 01:18:11,344
but there are just different
kinds of gender expressions

1643
01:18:11,382 --> 01:18:13,363
of that in the U.S., I
but I found that that

1644
01:18:13,363 --> 01:18:15,942
is so interesting to think about that

1645
01:18:15,942 --> 01:18:19,823
is linked to both class and
sort of gender discourse

1646
01:18:19,982 --> 01:18:23,462
about, you know, what is it
about that particular moment

1647
01:18:23,462 --> 01:18:26,403
in a developing country
that that would happen?

1648
01:18:26,403 --> 01:18:29,321
I think it probably has
a lot to do with media,

1649
01:18:29,624 --> 01:18:33,943
disposable income, how
things of advertising

1650
01:18:33,943 --> 01:18:36,780
and other things start
to saturating images.

1651
01:18:36,780 --> 01:18:39,043
Billboards, TVs, different
kinds of ways that

1652
01:18:39,043 --> 01:18:41,925
people are exposed to
different kinds of ideas

1653
01:18:41,925 --> 01:18:46,743
about how to regulate and
sort of discipline one's body,

1654
01:18:46,904 --> 01:18:51,904
particularly as a female, and
so it's really interesting

1655
01:18:52,303 --> 01:18:54,203
to think about that for
something that we think

1656
01:18:54,203 --> 01:18:57,063
about often as being very biological

1657
01:18:57,063 --> 01:19:00,300
or we might locate it
within a family system also

1658
01:19:00,300 --> 01:19:01,739
is another way of thinking about it.

1659
01:19:01,739 --> 01:19:06,041
But it's really a much larger
or bigger type of idea.

1660
01:19:06,041 --> 01:19:08,302
And so, that's why it wouldn't be uncommon

1661
01:19:08,302 --> 01:19:11,061
with any kind of problem to talk about

1662
01:19:11,061 --> 01:19:14,881
how do ideas or beliefs
or values that are part

1663
01:19:14,881 --> 01:19:19,050
of your, you know, culture
or any part of identity

1664
01:19:19,050 --> 01:19:21,412
fit and do they support this problem?

1665
01:19:21,610 --> 01:19:23,352
Do they not support this problem?

1666
01:19:23,352 --> 01:19:25,650
I think that those things
can be really helpful

1667
01:19:25,650 --> 01:19:28,783
ways of identifying and thinking about

1668
01:19:28,783 --> 01:19:32,343
how do various parts of who we are and how

1669
01:19:32,343 --> 01:19:34,903
we fit into the world have fit in both

1670
01:19:34,903 --> 01:19:38,064
providing risk factors, as
well as protective factors

1671
01:19:38,064 --> 01:19:39,841
for any kind of problem.

1672
01:19:40,060 --> 01:19:44,043
You know, I think it so
often happens, and, you know,

1673
01:19:44,043 --> 01:19:46,324
lots of times when I go
into various agencies

1674
01:19:46,324 --> 01:19:49,903
or consult with people,
like, a lot of it might

1675
01:19:49,903 --> 01:19:52,921
around a particular agency
culture or different things,

1676
01:19:52,921 --> 01:19:54,943
but I've found even at things like,

1677
01:19:54,943 --> 01:19:58,844
clinical case presentations,
like, there have been times,

1678
01:19:58,844 --> 01:20:03,081
you know, starting my career
in an inpatient setting,

1679
01:20:06,277 --> 01:20:08,397
as we get frustrated, as we get tired,

1680
01:20:08,397 --> 01:20:11,178
the ways in which we start
to speak about people

1681
01:20:11,178 --> 01:20:15,578
behind their backs, like, are not always

1682
01:20:15,578 --> 01:20:18,159
really preferred ways of
thinking or connecting

1683
01:20:18,159 --> 01:20:20,757
with our values, and there's, like,

1684
01:20:20,757 --> 01:20:22,579
there's more expressions of frustration.

1685
01:20:22,579 --> 01:20:24,599
However, it's, like, how
can we possibly imagine

1686
01:20:24,599 --> 01:20:27,680
that those very same
expressions then don’t become

1687
01:20:27,680 --> 01:20:30,275
shaping of those same
individuals' experiences

1688
01:20:30,275 --> 01:20:33,394
with our agency or with
ourselves at some level,

1689
01:20:33,394 --> 01:20:36,433
and so even doing simple things like

1690
01:20:36,433 --> 01:20:38,518
at a clinical case presentation,

1691
01:20:38,518 --> 01:20:40,475
you know, you can do it on
a day to you're presenting.

1692
01:20:40,475 --> 01:20:42,598
I think that's an easier time to start it

1693
01:20:42,598 --> 01:20:44,337
than when someone else
is presenting, and say

1694
01:20:44,337 --> 01:20:46,497
I'd like to try something new today.

1695
01:20:46,917 --> 01:20:49,216
And I wonder, you know,
Bobby, if you would listen

1696
01:20:49,216 --> 01:20:52,037
as the mother in this
family and really, like,

1697
01:20:52,037 --> 01:20:53,597
with everything I say, I'm going to ask

1698
01:20:53,597 --> 01:20:55,578
for your feedback afterwards about your

1699
01:20:55,578 --> 01:20:57,616
responses about about how I
represented you or otherwise.

1700
01:20:57,616 --> 01:20:59,777
You know, will you sit
in as, like, you know,

1701
01:20:59,777 --> 01:21:02,216
the oldest son, who's my client.

1702
01:21:02,216 --> 01:21:05,718
Will you sit in and just
to really help people

1703
01:21:05,718 --> 01:21:07,859
at the table shift in their
listening and to think

1704
01:21:07,859 --> 01:21:11,400
about the ways that
people are talked about

1705
01:21:11,400 --> 01:21:14,558
our impactful, and to
really, like, and it's good,

1706
01:21:14,558 --> 01:21:17,080
you know, always with an agency,

1707
01:21:17,080 --> 01:21:18,730
even if one is certain one has allies,

1708
01:21:18,730 --> 01:21:21,208
and so just pick on your
allies at the table,

1709
01:21:21,208 --> 01:21:24,598
to particularly be
listening from the position

1710
01:21:24,598 --> 01:21:26,894
of people who might be most talked about

1711
01:21:26,894 --> 01:21:30,175
in ways that would be
diminishing of who they are

1712
01:21:30,175 --> 01:21:32,278
in some ways or not fully representative

1713
01:21:32,278 --> 01:21:34,134
of their experience and so at the end

1714
01:21:34,134 --> 01:21:36,217
you could say, "Now,
Bobby, what was it like

1715
01:21:36,217 --> 01:21:38,057
"to hear everyone talk about..."

1716
01:21:38,057 --> 01:21:40,318
You know, like, not
only have me speak about

1717
01:21:40,318 --> 01:21:42,956
how I've been thinking about this work

1718
01:21:42,956 --> 01:21:45,078
but also to hear other people's responses

1719
01:21:45,078 --> 01:21:47,696
to your role in the family?

1720
01:21:48,038 --> 01:21:50,439
You know, I think that so often we get

1721
01:21:50,439 --> 01:21:52,678
into automatic ways or as we feel

1722
01:21:54,669 --> 01:21:56,986
worn down or ineffective, I think part

1723
01:21:56,986 --> 01:22:00,466
of this distancing and
power up and the power down

1724
01:22:00,466 --> 01:22:03,009
is also a way to protect ourselves.

1725
01:22:03,469 --> 01:22:06,907
You know, it's much easier to talk

1726
01:22:06,907 --> 01:22:10,009
about a client's resistance in not coming

1727
01:22:10,009 --> 01:22:12,868
than to really do an
intensive self-interrogation

1728
01:22:12,868 --> 01:22:14,667
about what am I not doing?

1729
01:22:20,130 --> 01:22:22,029
To blame externally, that's exactly

1730
01:22:22,029 --> 01:22:24,470
what we see and sometimes drives us nutty

1731
01:22:24,470 --> 01:22:26,310
about the people who come and talk to us,

1732
01:22:26,310 --> 01:22:27,789
but there's a way in which we can, like,

1733
01:22:27,789 --> 01:22:30,690
kind of put it in professional discourse

1734
01:22:30,690 --> 01:22:32,630
to protect ourselves in some way,

1735
01:22:33,349 --> 01:22:36,109
and again, it all goes back to sort of the

1736
01:22:36,109 --> 01:22:38,408
power of the naming, and,
like, the more expertise

1737
01:22:38,408 --> 01:22:40,410
I take, the more I can
name what other people

1738
01:22:40,410 --> 01:22:43,509
are doing or thinking,
which may or may not fit.

1739
01:22:43,509 --> 01:22:45,091
You know, I think that lots of times,

1740
01:22:45,091 --> 01:22:48,431
it can go a long way to first of all

1741
01:22:48,431 --> 01:22:51,431
understand that I
understand the behavior of,

1742
01:22:51,431 --> 01:22:54,110
you know, it's like, who doesn't want...

1743
01:22:54,232 --> 01:22:56,031
I mean, when I think
even about the problems

1744
01:22:56,031 --> 01:22:57,911
that I might have in my
life, I mean, who doesn't

1745
01:22:57,911 --> 01:22:59,730
want to, like, find
someone with a magic wand

1746
01:22:59,730 --> 01:23:02,370
who can make it all
better, and if it's, like,

1747
01:23:02,370 --> 01:23:04,325
a child in your life, it's,
like, okay, great, like,

1748
01:23:04,325 --> 01:23:06,644
I'm gonna drop him off,
and when I pick them up

1749
01:23:06,644 --> 01:23:08,146
I wanted to be all better.

1750
01:23:08,146 --> 01:23:10,047
So sometimes, I'm like, whoa.

1751
01:23:10,047 --> 01:23:11,945
You know, I might be,
like, "Gosh, I wish I had

1752
01:23:11,945 --> 01:23:13,505
that kind of magic wand."

1753
01:23:14,658 --> 01:23:17,243
And then when I see that,
I really, I can talk

1754
01:23:17,243 --> 01:23:20,643
with a parent with great
empathy about like I can see

1755
01:23:20,643 --> 01:23:24,884
how, you know, one could
come to the end of your rope.

1756
01:23:24,884 --> 01:23:26,942
Or I can see, like, you
know, I'd love to hear

1757
01:23:26,942 --> 01:23:30,494
more about what is
particularly frustrating.

1758
01:23:30,494 --> 01:23:34,112
But as I think about
helping, you know, working

1759
01:23:34,112 --> 01:23:36,714
with your child to develop those skills,

1760
01:23:37,113 --> 01:23:40,635
I think it is possible,
like, and the empathy

1761
01:23:40,635 --> 01:23:44,233
and rejection that I have a magic wand,

1762
01:23:44,234 --> 01:23:46,895
isn't a rejection of
the idea that, like...

1763
01:23:48,293 --> 01:23:51,152
My experience with
creating magical solutions

1764
01:23:51,152 --> 01:23:53,734
to problems is that it's sort of an all-in

1765
01:23:53,734 --> 01:23:56,333
type of experience that
there aren't any kind of

1766
01:23:56,333 --> 01:23:59,933
generic skills that I can just impart

1767
01:23:59,933 --> 01:24:02,872
or give to your child in some way.

1768
01:24:02,872 --> 01:24:04,969
That the skills that
will be most effective

1769
01:24:04,969 --> 01:24:07,508
are going to be building
on your child's strengths

1770
01:24:07,508 --> 01:24:10,549
and capacities and your family's
strengths and capacities,

1771
01:24:10,809 --> 01:24:14,128
so I really need your
expertise in the room.

1772
01:24:14,690 --> 01:24:18,750
And my sense of how
lasting change can happen

1773
01:24:18,750 --> 01:24:22,489
in the situation or, you
know, like, a real shift

1774
01:24:22,489 --> 01:24:25,271
in experience is really, you know, through

1775
01:24:25,271 --> 01:24:29,187
active participation, and it's
not that I don’t understand

1776
01:24:29,187 --> 01:24:33,289
that an hour off would mean
the entire world to you,

1777
01:24:34,810 --> 01:24:38,865
but I also think that with some work,

1778
01:24:38,865 --> 01:24:41,326
it won't take too, too
long, before you can really

1779
01:24:41,326 --> 01:24:44,086
have a bit more of a restful
experience in various

1780
01:24:44,086 --> 01:24:47,907
pockets or times during the day.

1781
01:24:50,005 --> 01:24:52,105
There was a question
before about is this a more

1782
01:24:52,105 --> 01:24:54,185
extended therapy or a brief therapy?

1783
01:24:54,185 --> 01:24:56,164
It can be a really brief therapy,

1784
01:24:56,224 --> 01:24:58,366
and it can be one that one can do

1785
01:24:58,366 --> 01:24:59,996
in a range of context.

1786
01:24:59,996 --> 01:25:02,317
I mean, working in an inpatient setting,

1787
01:25:02,817 --> 01:25:04,617
which I did for years and years, so often

1788
01:25:04,617 --> 01:25:06,916
you might just have someone
for three or four days,

1789
01:25:07,396 --> 01:25:09,998
and so I think about it
is, depending on one's

1790
01:25:09,998 --> 01:25:12,596
context or the time that you have.

1791
01:25:12,738 --> 01:25:14,597
You know, with anything, know matter what

1792
01:25:14,597 --> 01:25:17,138
your theoretical approach,
I think it's really

1793
01:25:17,138 --> 01:25:20,977
beginning to conceptualize
and formulate something

1794
01:25:21,198 --> 01:25:23,858
and think about what is the
right-sized piece of work

1795
01:25:23,858 --> 01:25:27,178
that I might be capable of
doing in this particular moment,

1796
01:25:27,538 --> 01:25:30,078
and how powerful it can be even, you know,

1797
01:25:30,078 --> 01:25:32,677
so I came to think of, like,
when I worked in inpatient,

1798
01:25:32,677 --> 01:25:34,699
it was, okay, I want to do a really good

1799
01:25:34,699 --> 01:25:38,300
assessment and handoff, you
know, back to providers,

1800
01:25:38,300 --> 01:25:40,910
but that doesn't mean
that's all I need to do.

1801
01:25:40,910 --> 01:25:44,509
I can also really find out
from that child and family,

1802
01:25:44,509 --> 01:25:48,788
the one critical place to do
a big push while they're here.

1803
01:25:48,788 --> 01:25:50,549
You know, I still have three days.

1804
01:25:50,549 --> 01:25:55,168
So I can find my one place,
and that one, tiny thing

1805
01:25:55,168 --> 01:25:57,948
that's doable and that
could be difference making,

1806
01:25:57,970 --> 01:26:01,031
if we really put a good
effort in that one place,

1807
01:26:01,031 --> 01:26:03,871
but to try to spread myself too thinly,

1808
01:26:04,311 --> 01:26:06,450
with a short period of time, or limits,

1809
01:26:06,450 --> 01:26:10,150
or someone only has six
sessions a year outpatient,

1810
01:26:10,251 --> 01:26:12,592
it's, like, okay,
therapy's not going to feel

1811
01:26:12,592 --> 01:26:15,929
effective unless I sort
of right-size the problem

1812
01:26:15,929 --> 01:26:18,251
and really figure out a focus,

1813
01:26:19,951 --> 01:26:22,392
but that shifting language
around the problem

1814
01:26:22,392 --> 01:26:26,942
can be very impactful in terms
of shifting the experience.

1815
01:26:27,881 --> 01:26:30,982
And I think that the trick about it is

1816
01:26:30,982 --> 01:26:33,041
if you know that you have
a really limited amount

1817
01:26:33,041 --> 01:26:37,901
of time, is to not feel too
rushed at the beginning.

1818
01:26:38,081 --> 01:26:39,961
It's not, like, okay, I have six sessions

1819
01:26:39,961 --> 01:26:41,782
so I want to externalize by
the end of the first session.

1820
01:26:41,782 --> 01:26:45,099
And then if I'm gonna
move to this other idea...

1821
01:26:45,118 --> 01:26:49,382
You know, maybe I just
need to allow myself

1822
01:26:49,382 --> 01:26:52,241
a deep breath and slow
down and maybe if in

1823
01:26:52,241 --> 01:26:54,862
the six sessions, I'm just
gonna get a deep sense

1824
01:26:54,862 --> 01:26:57,121
of the effects of the
problem and have someone

1825
01:26:57,121 --> 01:27:00,302
take a position on it, and
maybe I don't get any farther

1826
01:27:00,302 --> 01:27:02,201
than that in six hours.

1827
01:27:02,201 --> 01:27:05,962
Well, then that's where I need to pause,

1828
01:27:06,120 --> 01:27:08,622
but hopefully, that
position will help people

1829
01:27:08,622 --> 01:27:11,542
think about the steps that
they take against the problem

1830
01:27:11,542 --> 01:27:13,702
the next time they come back.

1831
01:27:13,702 --> 01:27:15,302
Like, they can do the next piece of work,

1832
01:27:15,302 --> 01:27:16,964
and if they've made a
good connection with me,

1833
01:27:16,964 --> 01:27:18,621
maybe they'll come back with me.

1834
01:27:19,181 --> 01:27:21,460
So I do feel like with anything,

1835
01:27:21,460 --> 01:27:23,781
you know, I think it is
sort of putting forth

1836
01:27:23,781 --> 01:27:26,000
a realistic a realistic thing,
going back to your parent

1837
01:27:26,000 --> 01:27:29,159
and the desire for the magic
wand and, like, the skills.

1838
01:27:29,159 --> 01:27:31,522
And I think skills is great currency,

1839
01:27:31,944 --> 01:27:35,064
but I also feel like this is a therapy

1840
01:27:35,064 --> 01:27:37,892
that can really highlight
those skills, and steps,

1841
01:27:37,892 --> 01:27:39,751
and actions that people are taking

1842
01:27:39,751 --> 01:27:42,533
and connecting with
beliefs, and that's where I

1843
01:27:42,533 --> 01:27:45,855
sort of joke about the
adolescent coping skills plan

1844
01:27:45,874 --> 01:27:49,006
of listening to music,
journaling, and because

1845
01:27:49,006 --> 01:27:52,119
it just feels like so much of
what, as we talk about skills,

1846
01:27:52,119 --> 01:27:53,998
it's, like, a really thin
description of something.

1847
01:27:53,998 --> 01:27:56,356
It's like, okay, here's
a menu of five items.

1848
01:27:57,813 --> 01:27:59,392
And I feel like even as were going to

1849
01:27:59,392 --> 01:28:01,752
electronic medical records
and other things in the field,

1850
01:28:01,752 --> 01:28:04,257
like, I hate those drop-down boxes.

1851
01:28:09,163 --> 01:28:12,443
And I feel like I actually
write narrative therapy

1852
01:28:12,443 --> 01:28:15,871
goals, but they're specific enough

1853
01:28:15,871 --> 01:28:17,451
and individualized enough.

1854
01:28:17,632 --> 01:28:19,412
Like, I sometimes ask for crazy amount of

1855
01:28:19,412 --> 01:28:22,212
sessions, and I generally get them,

1856
01:28:22,212 --> 01:28:23,831
or if I end up with a phone call

1857
01:28:23,831 --> 01:28:27,431
with a reviewer, I think that
people are really delighted

1858
01:28:27,431 --> 01:28:30,432
to hear about the
particularities of treatment

1859
01:28:30,432 --> 01:28:34,132
and to see expressions
of really attentive,

1860
01:28:34,132 --> 01:28:36,712
individualized, treatment
on treatment plans.

1861
01:28:36,772 --> 01:28:39,972
I think that that stands
apart from drop-down box

1862
01:28:40,052 --> 01:28:45,052
treatment, so I just sort
of feel like, even though I

1863
01:28:45,193 --> 01:28:47,212
think there's so much
trending, in terms of

1864
01:28:47,212 --> 01:28:49,577
heightening productivity, speeding ahead,

1865
01:28:49,577 --> 01:28:54,577
fewer sessions, you
know, I'm and arguing for

1866
01:28:55,505 --> 01:28:58,313
hold steady, don't go too fast.

1867
01:28:58,395 --> 01:29:01,257
Actually, the best of
work will kind of happen

1868
01:29:01,257 --> 01:29:04,424
if you play with time and
slow it down a little bit

1869
01:29:04,425 --> 01:29:06,164
and help people to understand

1870
01:29:06,164 --> 01:29:09,564
that there's no magic pill,
and that there's no magic wand,

1871
01:29:09,564 --> 01:29:11,705
and that there's no
magic skill as something

1872
01:29:11,705 --> 01:29:15,006
that's thinly described that
can really change something.

1873
01:29:16,706 --> 01:29:18,008
I mean, it's just been a pleasure.

1874
01:29:18,008 --> 01:29:19,205
Thank you all very much.

1875
01:29:19,205 --> 01:29:21,164
[Applause]