WEBVTT 1 00:00:11.991 --> 00:00:13.602 - So, thank you John, 2 00:00:13.602 --> 00:00:15.088 for coming to Smith, 3 00:00:15.088 --> 00:00:17.364 and for giving tonight's anti racism lecture 4 00:00:17.364 --> 00:00:19.889 and for the time to give this interview. 5 00:00:19.889 --> 00:00:21.587 And as you know, the faculty and I 6 00:00:21.587 --> 00:00:24.489 were very interested in a chapter in your book, 7 00:00:24.489 --> 00:00:26.234 Impolite Conversations, 8 00:00:26.234 --> 00:00:29.445 that you had entitled, Obama Makes Whites Whiter, 9 00:00:29.445 --> 00:00:31.182 'cause it's such a powerful chapter. 10 00:00:31.182 --> 00:00:34.656 And in that chapter you put forth an argument, 11 00:00:34.656 --> 00:00:36.150 one of the arguments is that 12 00:00:36.150 --> 00:00:38.458 as racial diversity increases 13 00:00:38.458 --> 00:00:41.112 and we see some power shifts, 14 00:00:41.112 --> 00:00:43.825 such as having a first black president, 15 00:00:43.825 --> 00:00:47.394 seeing people of color in visible positions of power, 16 00:00:47.394 --> 00:00:49.517 we are also experience an coalescence 17 00:00:49.517 --> 00:00:51.872 of white identified groups fighting 18 00:00:51.872 --> 00:00:54.383 to retain white privileges, symbolic power, 19 00:00:54.383 --> 00:00:55.981 if not their actual power. 20 00:00:55.981 --> 00:00:58.494 So I was wondering if you could talk first a little bit, 21 00:00:58.494 --> 00:01:01.371 about what prompted you to write that chapter. 22 00:01:01.371 --> 00:01:04.413 - I think that's a great question. 23 00:01:04.413 --> 00:01:07.855 I absolutely wanted to make sure the chapter, 24 00:01:07.855 --> 00:01:10.222 and the book in general, 25 00:01:10.222 --> 00:01:12.686 operated as a kind of provocation. 26 00:01:12.686 --> 00:01:14.904 So when you think about race, 27 00:01:14.904 --> 00:01:16.959 when you hear names like Obama, 28 00:01:16.959 --> 00:01:18.938 one of the things I think that happens is, 29 00:01:18.938 --> 00:01:21.477 everyone feels like they've heard it all before, 30 00:01:21.477 --> 00:01:22.695 they've already thought about, 31 00:01:22.695 --> 00:01:24.755 there's almost nothing new to lean. 32 00:01:24.755 --> 00:01:26.518 Just because we feel so over saturated 33 00:01:26.518 --> 00:01:28.141 with discourse around it. 34 00:01:28.141 --> 00:01:28.974 And so I thought, 35 00:01:28.974 --> 00:01:30.573 what's the way to get people 36 00:01:30.573 --> 00:01:33.423 to think about race a little bit differently? 37 00:01:33.423 --> 00:01:35.006 Think about this new president, 38 00:01:35.006 --> 00:01:37.515 this symbolically important figure 39 00:01:37.515 --> 00:01:39.018 a little bit differently. 40 00:01:39.018 --> 00:01:40.657 And for me, it meant trying 41 00:01:40.657 --> 00:01:42.947 to get people to recognize what was, 42 00:01:42.947 --> 00:01:43.780 and still is I think, 43 00:01:43.780 --> 00:01:46.070 a traditional distinction made in the social sciences 44 00:01:46.070 --> 00:01:47.980 between marked social categories, 45 00:01:47.980 --> 00:01:49.638 and unmarked categories. 46 00:01:49.638 --> 00:01:52.592 So one of the points is to say that historically, 47 00:01:52.592 --> 00:01:54.994 what's considered normative in the US, 48 00:01:54.994 --> 00:01:58.395 is always stuff that is not marked as racialized 49 00:01:58.395 --> 00:01:59.228 in some way. 50 00:01:59.228 --> 00:02:03.193 And so there's this over arching assumption 51 00:02:03.193 --> 00:02:05.911 that part of what it means to assimilate in America, 52 00:02:05.911 --> 00:02:07.460 to be truly American, 53 00:02:07.460 --> 00:02:10.010 is to be able to let go of all the 54 00:02:10.010 --> 00:02:12.579 particular cultural, racial ethnic stuff 55 00:02:12.579 --> 00:02:13.760 that makes you distinctive. 56 00:02:13.760 --> 00:02:14.835 That makes you look other than 57 00:02:14.835 --> 00:02:16.195 what we imagine what would be sort of 58 00:02:16.195 --> 00:02:17.368 typical white American. 59 00:02:17.368 --> 00:02:19.629 And so what I thought was important 60 00:02:19.629 --> 00:02:22.300 to just begin to get people to see 61 00:02:22.300 --> 00:02:24.842 is that, with the ascendancy of Obama, 62 00:02:24.842 --> 00:02:25.855 the Obama administration, 63 00:02:25.855 --> 00:02:27.500 the browning of the electorate, 64 00:02:27.500 --> 00:02:29.744 that what we're seeing in part is 65 00:02:29.744 --> 00:02:32.765 a whiteness now that can't always pass itself off 66 00:02:32.765 --> 00:02:35.576 as unmarked, as normative, 67 00:02:35.576 --> 00:02:36.894 as universal. 68 00:02:36.894 --> 00:02:39.378 That it has a particular coefficient. 69 00:02:39.378 --> 00:02:40.666 It operates the way 70 00:02:40.666 --> 00:02:42.748 other racialized categories operate. 71 00:02:42.748 --> 00:02:44.605 Doesn't mean it's biologically real, 72 00:02:44.605 --> 00:02:45.553 we can deconstruct it. 73 00:02:45.553 --> 00:02:47.604 It doesn't mean there's anything about whiteness 74 00:02:47.604 --> 00:02:49.419 that's the same for everyone. 75 00:02:49.419 --> 00:02:51.446 But it means it's harder for whiteness 76 00:02:51.446 --> 00:02:52.507 to pass itself off 77 00:02:52.507 --> 00:02:54.550 as somehow other than a specific, 78 00:02:54.550 --> 00:02:56.906 racialized subject position. 79 00:02:56.906 --> 00:02:59.036 And I think that difference is important 80 00:02:59.036 --> 00:03:00.053 because it means 81 00:03:00.053 --> 00:03:02.325 historically, we've only imaged 82 00:03:02.325 --> 00:03:04.672 whiteness speaks itself as white 83 00:03:04.672 --> 00:03:06.266 if it's yelling and screaming 84 00:03:06.266 --> 00:03:08.080 and if it's donning a white hood 85 00:03:08.080 --> 00:03:10.189 and talking about white supremacy. 86 00:03:10.189 --> 00:03:12.748 But there's something about being able to understand 87 00:03:12.748 --> 00:03:15.271 whiteness as part of a larger, eclectic, 88 00:03:15.271 --> 00:03:16.953 multiracial universe 89 00:03:16.953 --> 00:03:19.785 that says whiteness can be white 90 00:03:19.785 --> 00:03:21.414 and have a history to it. 91 00:03:21.414 --> 00:03:24.150 A history and particular past and context 92 00:03:24.150 --> 00:03:26.356 that's no difference from the past and context 93 00:03:26.356 --> 00:03:27.624 that makes what we imagine 94 00:03:27.624 --> 00:03:29.369 to be blackness black. 95 00:03:29.369 --> 00:03:30.324 That our job, 96 00:03:30.324 --> 00:03:32.186 and I think this is what Obama does 97 00:03:32.186 --> 00:03:34.228 almost in spite of himself. 98 00:03:34.228 --> 00:03:38.075 He's a figure who slowly allows us to recognize 99 00:03:38.075 --> 00:03:41.022 that whiteness has particular interests 100 00:03:41.022 --> 00:03:43.528 in the context of the US body politic. 101 00:03:43.528 --> 00:03:47.385 It has a very specific set of ideological coefficients 102 00:03:47.385 --> 00:03:49.336 and that there's something about that 103 00:03:49.336 --> 00:03:52.178 that shouldn't just be hijacked by white supremacy. 104 00:03:52.178 --> 00:03:54.639 Just like, understanding blackness with the history 105 00:03:54.639 --> 00:03:56.744 doesn't mean you have to be a black supremacist. 106 00:03:56.744 --> 00:03:58.124 It could mean trying to recognize 107 00:03:58.124 --> 00:03:59.947 that there's nothing special about whiteness 108 00:03:59.947 --> 00:04:01.262 that makes it invisible. 109 00:04:01.262 --> 00:04:03.464 And therefor everything else becomes visible 110 00:04:03.464 --> 00:04:04.608 as particular. 111 00:04:04.608 --> 00:04:06.004 And whiteness becomes general. 112 00:04:06.004 --> 00:04:08.506 So Obama is think is this character 113 00:04:08.506 --> 00:04:10.451 that we need I think at this time. 114 00:04:10.451 --> 00:04:12.642 Because it helps us to understand 115 00:04:12.642 --> 00:04:14.465 that there's nothing about whiteness 116 00:04:14.465 --> 00:04:16.105 and the way it functions, 117 00:04:16.105 --> 00:04:18.903 that has to be categorically, structurally different 118 00:04:18.903 --> 00:04:19.936 from the way all the 119 00:04:19.936 --> 00:04:22.269 other racialized subjectivities function. 120 00:04:22.269 --> 00:04:24.654 Even though in the past, that's been the case. 121 00:04:24.654 --> 00:04:25.487 - Yeah. 122 00:04:25.487 --> 00:04:27.260 So there is a quote in your book 123 00:04:27.260 --> 00:04:28.880 where you say, 124 00:04:28.880 --> 00:04:31.429 I welcome a whiteness that can speak its own name 125 00:04:31.429 --> 00:04:34.026 without hateful yelling or the gnashing of teeth. 126 00:04:34.026 --> 00:04:36.529 Which is what you're talking about, 127 00:04:36.529 --> 00:04:38.196 is sort of this move 128 00:04:39.504 --> 00:04:40.504 to whiteness 129 00:04:42.523 --> 00:04:45.523 as another kind of racial experience 130 00:04:46.369 --> 00:04:49.788 but not necessarily where white supremacy 131 00:04:49.788 --> 00:04:53.303 is sort of the only way that it can be experienced. 132 00:04:53.303 --> 00:04:57.387 Is that where we're heading, do you think? 133 00:04:57.387 --> 00:04:59.237 - In some ways I think 134 00:04:59.237 --> 00:05:00.777 we're going in a direction, 135 00:05:00.777 --> 00:05:02.791 we're becoming much more self conscious 136 00:05:02.791 --> 00:05:04.563 about our racial history. 137 00:05:04.563 --> 00:05:07.462 We're playing with the ways in which we talk about our past. 138 00:05:07.462 --> 00:05:08.988 So for instance, you have right now 139 00:05:08.988 --> 00:05:09.894 playing on Broadway, 140 00:05:09.894 --> 00:05:11.334 that's so fascinating to people 141 00:05:11.334 --> 00:05:13.357 because it cast the founding fathers 142 00:05:13.357 --> 00:05:16.350 as immigrants, as very ethnic and racial lives. 143 00:05:16.350 --> 00:05:17.992 And tells a story about the past 144 00:05:17.992 --> 00:05:20.297 that actually resonates for what was going on then, 145 00:05:20.297 --> 00:05:23.277 but also tells us something about who, and what we are now. 146 00:05:23.277 --> 00:05:24.594 And there's gonna be more and more 147 00:05:24.594 --> 00:05:26.203 of those opportunities for us 148 00:05:26.203 --> 00:05:28.006 to question our preset positions 149 00:05:28.006 --> 00:05:30.071 about what Americans are, 150 00:05:30.071 --> 00:05:32.101 who counts as truly American 151 00:05:32.101 --> 00:05:33.751 and how we expand the category. 152 00:05:33.751 --> 00:05:35.189 And I think this is 153 00:05:35.189 --> 00:05:38.186 sort of coupled with this investment we have, 154 00:05:38.186 --> 00:05:41.765 and what I think is a very valuable aspiration, 155 00:05:41.765 --> 00:05:43.889 which is the social of colorblindness. 156 00:05:43.889 --> 00:05:45.176 So we've always wanted to say, 157 00:05:45.176 --> 00:05:46.608 well we don't see color. 158 00:05:46.608 --> 00:05:49.289 If there's ability to not see color, 159 00:05:49.289 --> 00:05:51.742 we imagine that somehow that makes us better. 160 00:05:51.742 --> 00:05:54.851 That makes us able to transcend 161 00:05:54.851 --> 00:05:56.728 some of what we imagine to be the most 162 00:05:56.728 --> 00:05:58.809 dastardly parts of our racial history. 163 00:05:58.809 --> 00:06:00.334 Whereas, I think the better model 164 00:06:00.334 --> 00:06:02.697 isn't race blindness, 165 00:06:02.697 --> 00:06:04.798 I think it's being able to see difference 166 00:06:04.798 --> 00:06:07.101 without imagining hard and fast 167 00:06:07.101 --> 00:06:09.606 and genetically predetermined hierarchy. 168 00:06:09.606 --> 00:06:12.529 Without imagining that there's some us versus them, 169 00:06:12.529 --> 00:06:15.707 that then race begins to buttress and bolster. 170 00:06:15.707 --> 00:06:18.137 And so I think it's getting out of this mindset 171 00:06:18.137 --> 00:06:20.242 of having to pretend color away, 172 00:06:20.242 --> 00:06:23.211 but instead seeing it more effectively, 173 00:06:23.211 --> 00:06:24.386 more accurately. 174 00:06:24.386 --> 00:06:26.734 Not as something that wards over us, 175 00:06:26.734 --> 00:06:28.849 or predetermines our possibility, 176 00:06:28.849 --> 00:06:30.860 but as something that's part of the 177 00:06:30.860 --> 00:06:33.472 sort of larger landscape of culture 178 00:06:33.472 --> 00:06:34.679 that we inherit. 179 00:06:34.679 --> 00:06:36.944 And that it's our job to reimagine 180 00:06:36.944 --> 00:06:38.508 and reinterpret as we see fit. 181 00:06:38.508 --> 00:06:40.759 And hopefully in ways that are more inclusive. 182 00:06:40.759 --> 00:06:43.656 Allow us to recognize just how much value 183 00:06:43.656 --> 00:06:45.016 comes from difference. 184 00:06:45.016 --> 00:06:47.719 There's this tendency that we have to think that 185 00:06:47.719 --> 00:06:49.797 the only way that we can come together as a collective 186 00:06:49.797 --> 00:06:52.366 is if we're all the same. 187 00:06:52.366 --> 00:06:53.574 Whereas I think that for, 188 00:06:53.574 --> 00:06:55.223 I think most of the ways 189 00:06:55.223 --> 00:06:58.285 in which we wanna talk about societies flourishing, 190 00:06:58.285 --> 00:07:01.527 we recognize that it's only through diversity 191 00:07:01.527 --> 00:07:03.567 that you can actually have the tools, 192 00:07:03.567 --> 00:07:06.259 the wide pantry panoply of tools you need 193 00:07:06.259 --> 00:07:08.120 to be able to survive in difficult times. 194 00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:10.371 So it's I think valuing what diversity brings 195 00:07:10.371 --> 00:07:11.855 and not fearing difference 196 00:07:11.855 --> 00:07:13.179 as something that's somehow 197 00:07:13.179 --> 00:07:15.384 makes it less possible for us to be 198 00:07:15.384 --> 00:07:17.000 a functioning body politic, 199 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:18.370 a real collective that works together. 200 00:07:18.370 --> 00:07:20.951 - I mean, I don't know that we've experienced difference 201 00:07:20.951 --> 00:07:22.825 that wasn't really powered. 202 00:07:22.825 --> 00:07:26.162 And we don't have experience with 203 00:07:26.162 --> 00:07:29.760 difference that doesn't come with power. 204 00:07:29.760 --> 00:07:30.593 And I guess, 205 00:07:30.593 --> 00:07:32.593 is that possible for us? 206 00:07:33.737 --> 00:07:35.145 - I think there are examples, 207 00:07:35.145 --> 00:07:37.252 maybe sometimes seemingly trivial examples, 208 00:07:37.252 --> 00:07:38.502 all the time of 209 00:07:39.571 --> 00:07:41.675 folks who can occupy different social roles 210 00:07:41.675 --> 00:07:42.857 and categories, 211 00:07:42.857 --> 00:07:45.193 and do it in a more or less 212 00:07:45.193 --> 00:07:47.776 hegemonic and exclusionary way. 213 00:07:48.734 --> 00:07:49.794 But I think that's the challenge. 214 00:07:49.794 --> 00:07:52.798 The challenge to say, power's always circulating, 215 00:07:52.798 --> 00:07:54.365 we're always grabbing for it, 216 00:07:54.365 --> 00:07:55.462 trying to use it, 217 00:07:55.462 --> 00:07:56.580 deploying it in ways 218 00:07:56.580 --> 00:07:59.259 that are often about self interest. 219 00:07:59.259 --> 00:08:01.910 But there's nothing about the idea 220 00:08:01.910 --> 00:08:04.220 of setting up a distinction. 221 00:08:04.220 --> 00:08:05.974 And I do think there's a powerful point 222 00:08:05.974 --> 00:08:08.771 that I hope that chapter tries to make as well, 223 00:08:08.771 --> 00:08:11.487 that we're always carving up us es and thems. 224 00:08:11.487 --> 00:08:13.471 So until we figure out the us is important, 225 00:08:13.471 --> 00:08:14.748 we care about the us. 226 00:08:14.748 --> 00:08:17.555 And then once we decide this other group is them, 227 00:08:17.555 --> 00:08:19.190 then we can almost do whatever we want to them. 228 00:08:19.190 --> 00:08:20.023 Right? 229 00:08:20.023 --> 00:08:20.856 Especially I they're a threat 230 00:08:20.856 --> 00:08:22.577 to the folks who constitute us. 231 00:08:22.577 --> 00:08:23.759 And so I think there's a way in which 232 00:08:23.759 --> 00:08:25.656 we start the hierarchy there. 233 00:08:25.656 --> 00:08:26.995 For the people we really care about 234 00:08:26.995 --> 00:08:27.828 and really love. 235 00:08:27.828 --> 00:08:29.689 And the folks who might threaten those people. 236 00:08:29.689 --> 00:08:32.105 And so we don't even feel like what we're doing 237 00:08:32.105 --> 00:08:34.400 is about sort of trying to grab power. 238 00:08:34.400 --> 00:08:37.655 So it's already infused in our assumption 239 00:08:37.655 --> 00:08:39.733 about what constitutes weak. 240 00:08:39.733 --> 00:08:41.283 And so part of it I think is to 241 00:08:41.283 --> 00:08:43.461 think differently about how we can figure 242 00:08:43.461 --> 00:08:45.264 those circles of us es and thems. 243 00:08:45.264 --> 00:08:47.755 Why do we make them so constrained and small 244 00:08:47.755 --> 00:08:49.040 in their circumferences? 245 00:08:49.040 --> 00:08:50.667 Are there ways to expand them, 246 00:08:50.667 --> 00:08:52.799 and feel less threatened by difference? 247 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:54.475 If the difference isn't 248 00:08:54.475 --> 00:08:57.144 always already considered a threat, 249 00:08:57.144 --> 00:08:59.374 then I think we have less of a tendency 250 00:08:59.374 --> 00:09:01.355 to be as hot and quick 251 00:09:01.355 --> 00:09:03.167 with trying to use that difference 252 00:09:03.167 --> 00:09:04.422 as a justification 253 00:09:04.422 --> 00:09:06.615 for doing some very horrible things 254 00:09:06.615 --> 00:09:09.615 in the spirit of protecting our own. 255 00:09:11.260 --> 00:09:12.629 But I think you're right to say, 256 00:09:12.629 --> 00:09:14.883 our job is to figure out how and why 257 00:09:14.883 --> 00:09:18.284 we use these categories to justify things 258 00:09:18.284 --> 00:09:20.083 that are always in some ways 259 00:09:20.083 --> 00:09:22.820 steeped in a certain kind of power play. 260 00:09:22.820 --> 00:09:25.082 And it's a power play usually that we 261 00:09:25.082 --> 00:09:27.109 are able to justify and sleep well at night 262 00:09:27.109 --> 00:09:30.026 because we say it's about defending ourselves. 263 00:09:30.026 --> 00:09:31.665 And often, every defense 264 00:09:31.665 --> 00:09:33.291 is also a certain kind of offense. 265 00:09:33.291 --> 00:09:35.100 So trying to own both of those sides 266 00:09:35.100 --> 00:09:36.563 at the same time, I think. 267 00:09:36.563 --> 00:09:38.632 - And the book came out in 2014, 268 00:09:38.632 --> 00:09:41.568 ahead of this election cycle, 269 00:09:41.568 --> 00:09:42.972 before we knew we would have 270 00:09:42.972 --> 00:09:45.915 the first female presidential nominee. 271 00:09:45.915 --> 00:09:48.489 And do you think the development 272 00:09:48.489 --> 00:09:51.874 of nominating a white woman in this role, 273 00:09:51.874 --> 00:09:54.216 do you feel like this is 274 00:09:54.216 --> 00:09:56.530 continuing a movement in the same direction? 275 00:09:56.530 --> 00:09:58.613 Is it somehow a backlash? 276 00:09:59.614 --> 00:10:01.707 What sense of it do you make, 277 00:10:01.707 --> 00:10:04.302 in terms of looking at 278 00:10:04.302 --> 00:10:07.082 sort of what's happening around the racialization of? 279 00:10:07.082 --> 00:10:08.225 - That's a good question. 280 00:10:08.225 --> 00:10:10.058 So it's another first. 281 00:10:12.233 --> 00:10:15.660 It is amazing that we still have firsts 282 00:10:15.660 --> 00:10:18.910 around categories that are so central. 283 00:10:18.910 --> 00:10:20.628 You almost feel like, after Obama, 284 00:10:20.628 --> 00:10:23.916 how could we have not been able to do this before? 285 00:10:23.916 --> 00:10:25.815 As you see the nomination of Hillary Clinton, 286 00:10:25.815 --> 00:10:28.022 you think, how could this not have been possible 287 00:10:28.022 --> 00:10:29.022 ever before? 288 00:10:30.643 --> 00:10:31.623 Ultimately, I do believe 289 00:10:31.623 --> 00:10:33.090 one of the things that reminds us 290 00:10:33.090 --> 00:10:35.317 is we can't think about any of these categories, 291 00:10:35.317 --> 00:10:38.779 race or gender, ethnicity, religion, sexuality, 292 00:10:38.779 --> 00:10:40.228 in some sort of vacuum, 293 00:10:40.228 --> 00:10:42.202 disentangled from everything else. 294 00:10:42.202 --> 00:10:43.786 And so how do we make sure 295 00:10:43.786 --> 00:10:46.002 we're keeping all of the productive tensions 296 00:10:46.002 --> 00:10:48.245 between and among these categories, 297 00:10:48.245 --> 00:10:51.630 together as we try to analyze what's happening. 298 00:10:51.630 --> 00:10:54.959 Ultimately, I think our job is gonna be to figure out 299 00:10:54.959 --> 00:10:57.162 what we gained as a function 300 00:10:57.162 --> 00:10:59.609 of the last seven plus year, what will be eight years 301 00:10:59.609 --> 00:11:00.442 of Obama. 302 00:11:00.442 --> 00:11:02.740 What worked, in terms of us trying to think 303 00:11:02.740 --> 00:11:04.092 critically with one another. 304 00:11:04.092 --> 00:11:06.696 We always wanna have conversations on race. 305 00:11:06.696 --> 00:11:09.004 I think we actually did a very poor job 306 00:11:09.004 --> 00:11:10.065 over the last seven years, 307 00:11:10.065 --> 00:11:12.346 of talking, really talking honestly 308 00:11:12.346 --> 00:11:13.975 about what race means. 309 00:11:13.975 --> 00:11:15.628 I think one of the things, hopefully, 310 00:11:15.628 --> 00:11:17.786 that we'll be able to imagine 311 00:11:17.786 --> 00:11:20.703 in the lead up to the next election 312 00:11:21.666 --> 00:11:23.587 is to really get us to think about 313 00:11:23.587 --> 00:11:26.086 how to plug this discussion about race 314 00:11:26.086 --> 00:11:28.472 and racial difference and racism 315 00:11:28.472 --> 00:11:31.872 into productive and fertile dialogue. 316 00:11:31.872 --> 00:11:36.175 With the ongoing commitments we have to gender difference. 317 00:11:36.175 --> 00:11:38.189 I often wanna think of them as blocks 318 00:11:38.189 --> 00:11:39.683 we move around separately. 319 00:11:39.683 --> 00:11:42.380 But hopefully, one of the things that 320 00:11:42.380 --> 00:11:44.104 Clinton, who's running, 321 00:11:44.104 --> 00:11:46.832 a lot of experts argue, on the legacy 322 00:11:46.832 --> 00:11:49.287 and on the efforts and actions of Obama. 323 00:11:49.287 --> 00:11:51.058 One of the things that might allow 324 00:11:51.058 --> 00:11:53.059 her to do and her campaign to do, 325 00:11:53.059 --> 00:11:55.136 is to think about the productive points 326 00:11:55.136 --> 00:11:57.105 of cross fertilization between, 327 00:11:57.105 --> 00:11:58.787 what he allowed us to say and not 328 00:11:58.787 --> 00:12:00.589 and think about what needs to be raised, 329 00:12:00.589 --> 00:12:03.277 and what her candidacy might allow us to think about 330 00:12:03.277 --> 00:12:05.556 the ratio between race and gender 331 00:12:05.556 --> 00:12:07.974 as these complicatedly intersecting 332 00:12:07.974 --> 00:12:09.909 categories of difference, 333 00:12:09.909 --> 00:12:11.270 but also of community 334 00:12:11.270 --> 00:12:12.571 that we can use in ways 335 00:12:12.571 --> 00:12:14.793 that actually doesn't have to be destructive for us. 336 00:12:14.793 --> 00:12:15.626 - Yeah. 337 00:12:15.626 --> 00:12:18.103 No, not destructive, very difficult. 338 00:12:18.103 --> 00:12:21.186 I just think of social work education 339 00:12:22.064 --> 00:12:24.577 and schools across the country 340 00:12:24.577 --> 00:12:26.941 trying to always, continuously working 341 00:12:26.941 --> 00:12:29.536 on trying to create the right kind of climates 342 00:12:29.536 --> 00:12:32.835 and conversations in the classroom, even, 343 00:12:32.835 --> 00:12:34.219 in sort of that tall order. 344 00:12:34.219 --> 00:12:35.687 So, along that line though, 345 00:12:35.687 --> 00:12:37.754 what is our role, do you think? 346 00:12:37.754 --> 00:12:39.041 Schools of social work, 347 00:12:39.041 --> 00:12:42.181 what is our role to play in this? 348 00:12:42.181 --> 00:12:44.939 - I would probably talk about 349 00:12:44.939 --> 00:12:47.030 the role of social work schools, 350 00:12:47.030 --> 00:12:48.738 of social work as a profession, 351 00:12:48.738 --> 00:12:50.257 in three different ways. 352 00:12:50.257 --> 00:12:51.541 The first I think is, 353 00:12:51.541 --> 00:12:53.346 that disabused people have often, 354 00:12:53.346 --> 00:12:54.790 very impoverished notions 355 00:12:54.790 --> 00:12:57.003 of what social work actually entails. 356 00:12:57.003 --> 00:12:59.548 Most people have no idea of what social workers do 357 00:12:59.548 --> 00:13:00.764 and the various levels 358 00:13:00.764 --> 00:13:02.372 at which social workers operate. 359 00:13:02.372 --> 00:13:04.511 From the macro to the micro. 360 00:13:04.511 --> 00:13:07.745 Actually doing a job of reeducating people 361 00:13:07.745 --> 00:13:09.570 about what social work contributes, 362 00:13:09.570 --> 00:13:12.026 thinking holistically about social problems, 363 00:13:12.026 --> 00:13:13.185 I think that's key. 364 00:13:13.185 --> 00:13:14.651 I think the second thing that's, 365 00:13:14.651 --> 00:13:17.054 I think really important for us 366 00:13:17.054 --> 00:13:19.179 as a profession that's always at the center 367 00:13:19.179 --> 00:13:20.653 of important issues. 368 00:13:20.653 --> 00:13:22.700 Often national tragedies as well, 369 00:13:22.700 --> 00:13:26.105 is to actually remind everyone that our job 370 00:13:26.105 --> 00:13:29.602 is to think about the distance between theory 371 00:13:29.602 --> 00:13:30.775 and practice. 372 00:13:30.775 --> 00:13:32.712 Social work is one of these 373 00:13:32.712 --> 00:13:35.195 I think, incredibly powerful fields 374 00:13:35.195 --> 00:13:36.819 that has to understand all the most 375 00:13:36.819 --> 00:13:38.120 cutting edge social science. 376 00:13:38.120 --> 00:13:39.992 Evidence based theory. 377 00:13:39.992 --> 00:13:42.513 But we also recognize that in the world, 378 00:13:42.513 --> 00:13:44.407 one of the first things that leaves you, 379 00:13:44.407 --> 00:13:46.081 of the sort of theoretical scaffoldings, 380 00:13:46.081 --> 00:13:47.406 when you're in the middle of something, 381 00:13:47.406 --> 00:13:49.476 in the moment and have to make a snap decision. 382 00:13:49.476 --> 00:13:51.767 So I think it's getting social work students 383 00:13:51.767 --> 00:13:53.655 to become social workers who can work 384 00:13:53.655 --> 00:13:55.418 quickly, in the moment. 385 00:13:55.418 --> 00:13:57.265 Whose instincts are the right instinct. 386 00:13:57.265 --> 00:13:58.981 Instinct's about inclusion, 387 00:13:58.981 --> 00:14:00.999 about connection, about community. 388 00:14:00.999 --> 00:14:02.250 Then I think the third thing 389 00:14:02.250 --> 00:14:05.152 that I've always found really important about social work 390 00:14:05.152 --> 00:14:07.969 and the leadership role I think it can play around 391 00:14:07.969 --> 00:14:09.406 a lot of these important issues. 392 00:14:09.406 --> 00:14:11.145 Is I do feel like ultimately, 393 00:14:11.145 --> 00:14:14.594 part of what social work is very good at doing, 394 00:14:14.594 --> 00:14:17.409 it's very good at recognizing the value 395 00:14:17.409 --> 00:14:21.192 of taking people serious, of listening to them. 396 00:14:21.192 --> 00:14:22.102 Of understanding, 397 00:14:22.102 --> 00:14:23.629 you can learn from your interlock. 398 00:14:23.629 --> 00:14:26.912 No matter what status or station they are in life. 399 00:14:26.912 --> 00:14:29.740 And so being able to take that sensibility, 400 00:14:29.740 --> 00:14:32.110 that ability to respect the other. 401 00:14:32.110 --> 00:14:35.123 To really try to understand them holistically. 402 00:14:35.123 --> 00:14:37.113 Not just as a particular client 403 00:14:37.113 --> 00:14:39.488 in this sort of small, narrow minded way. 404 00:14:39.488 --> 00:14:40.966 Not just as one racial category, 405 00:14:40.966 --> 00:14:41.799 not just as a gender, 406 00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:43.401 but as a full human being. 407 00:14:43.401 --> 00:14:45.961 Whose like you want to make better. 408 00:14:45.961 --> 00:14:47.262 And I think that often, 409 00:14:47.262 --> 00:14:49.243 so few moments when 410 00:14:49.243 --> 00:14:51.843 we really celebrate our capacity, 411 00:14:51.843 --> 00:14:52.971 our commitment, 412 00:14:52.971 --> 00:14:55.457 to just trying to make the world a better place 413 00:14:55.457 --> 00:14:56.845 in a way that isn't superficial, 414 00:14:56.845 --> 00:14:58.856 that isn't besides the fact 415 00:14:58.856 --> 00:15:00.145 that we don't do enough. 416 00:15:00.145 --> 00:15:03.271 Really try to make sure that we do effectively. 417 00:15:03.271 --> 00:15:04.791 And so I think those for me 418 00:15:04.791 --> 00:15:06.866 are the things social work always does well. 419 00:15:06.866 --> 00:15:08.026 We can always do a better job 420 00:15:08.026 --> 00:15:09.683 at making it clear to people 421 00:15:09.683 --> 00:15:11.168 that sometimes even though, 422 00:15:11.168 --> 00:15:13.314 it can be done inconspicuously, 423 00:15:13.314 --> 00:15:16.549 it can be done without a lot of fanfare. 424 00:15:16.549 --> 00:15:18.912 That it's all the more important 425 00:15:18.912 --> 00:15:20.450 for its ability to do this work 426 00:15:20.450 --> 00:15:22.000 in a way that's stealth, but effective. 427 00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:24.706 And that actually allows people to see and feel 428 00:15:24.706 --> 00:15:26.808 the difference that social work makes in their lives. 429 00:15:26.808 --> 00:15:28.442 So I think it's important stuff. 430 00:15:28.442 --> 00:15:29.664 And I feel like our students, 431 00:15:29.664 --> 00:15:30.887 the students you put out here, 432 00:15:30.887 --> 00:15:32.339 I feel like students we're putting out 433 00:15:32.339 --> 00:15:33.775 at the University of Pennsylvania 434 00:15:33.775 --> 00:15:35.262 are really doing an incredible job. 435 00:15:35.262 --> 00:15:36.855 And we just wanna, I think support them 436 00:15:36.855 --> 00:15:38.738 so that folks recognize who they are 437 00:15:38.738 --> 00:15:39.656 before they get there. 438 00:15:39.656 --> 00:15:42.220 And know the skills that they're bringing with them. 439 00:15:42.220 --> 00:15:44.285 - Thank you so much for taking your time. 440 00:15:44.285 --> 00:15:47.226 This has been a wonderful opportunity to hear your thoughts. 441 00:15:47.226 --> 00:15:48.174 - Thank you for the questions, 442 00:15:48.174 --> 00:15:49.674 I appreciate them.