WEBVTT

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- Thank you so much for
coming to the lecture tonight.

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I'm Hanna Cartman and I'm one
of the resident faculty here.

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I'm one of the resident
faculty here, is that better?

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Yeah.

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And I'm conscious that
the vigil just ended

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and we're coming into this space.

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And I wanted to offer an
introduction to the evening

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and to our lecture.

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And also to acknowledge up front that

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nothing that I can say will
be adequate in this setting

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given this context.

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This morning at about 3:00am,

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I was awake with a hungry
infant, an exhausted wife,

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and overcome with grief.

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I got on social media
to find other members

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of my queer community

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and realized they, too, were awake.

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They, too, were thinking about Orlando.

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They, too, were thinking
about Latin night,

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about a sanctuary violated
during and among Pride events

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across the country.

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A breathtaking and deliberate destruction

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of a community in celebration.

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I thought, maybe I should
be numb to it at this point.

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Let's not forget that violence
ends the lives of people

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in the queer community on a daily basis.

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Frequently and disproportionately
those that are targeted,

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those lives that are lost
like those in Orlando,

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are the lives of people of color,

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people who identify as transgender
or gender non-conforming,

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and people of color who
identify as transgender

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or gender non-conforming.

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And so, we are all left with our grief.

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Grief for Orlando,

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grief for Charleston,

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grief for Oak Creek,

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grief for all of the cities

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and towns impacted by gun
violence and mass shootings.

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And grief for each and
every person and family.

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Grief for Mike Brown,

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grief for Trayvon Martin,

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grief for Sandra Bland,

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grief for Tamir Rice,

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Reecey Walker,

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Keanna Blakely,

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and on,

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and on,

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and on.

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And all of this layered up
on a history of violence

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in this country

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from slavery to death marches

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and executions of indigenous communities

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to church bombings,

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to internment,

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to mass shootings.

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What horrific litany.

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This grief is not new grief.

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This is not the first
or even the largest act

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of identity-based violence

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against a marginalized
community in our country.

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And yet, alongside so much grief,

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the potential for change.

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But in my particular grief,

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my 3:00am grief,

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I had to parent an infant,

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whom I love more than words can describe.

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And in your grief,

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you will have to study and to learn

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to be present for the
clients that you serve,

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to teach, to create knowledge,

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and to exist in a world
while you also mourn in it.

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Many of us came to social work

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because we were tired of grieving.

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We wanted to do something,

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to push back against this
tidal wave of violence,

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the hate speech,

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the discriminatory legislation,

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racial profiling,

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systematic oppression in our education,

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healthcare, criminal,
and economic systems.

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And we can't push back
that tidal wave by watching

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or critiquing,

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or waiting for someone else
to do something that matters.

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We have to own the problem as ours to fix.

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Some of us came here to
learn how to do something.

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Some of us came here to
learn how to do even more

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than we were already doing.

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And so in our grief,

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we must turn inward and
figure out what it is

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that each of us can do.

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Me.

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You.

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Our community together.

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Beverly Daniel Tatum, one of my mentors,

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taught me that everyone has
their own sphere of influence.

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That sphere might be with your friends,

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your family, your clients,
your social network,

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your academic peers,

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in your agencies,

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in your communities,

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or with your economic
or political influence.

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Tonight and in the following days,

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in your grief,

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in your disbelief,

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in your numbness,

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I encourage each of us to think

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about our own spheres of
influence and what each of us

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and what each of us might do

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to turn this tide

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and to amplify the voices of
those who need to be heard.

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I've read that we as a community
are encouraging ourselves

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to dedicate our study and work to Orlando.

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So yes,

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let's learn together,

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and then, let's talk
together about what we can do

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with that knowledge.

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A few minutes ago,

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I stood with my wife and my child,

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my queer family.

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My child, who at 28 days old,

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attended their first vigil,

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to recognize a loss in our community.

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But the life of my family

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has already been made better

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by someone else who used
their sphere of influence

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and their research to do
something that mattered.

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And I feel grateful to
introduce her tonight.

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Abbie Goldberg received
her B.A. in Psychology

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from Wesleyan University

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and an M.A. in Psychology and
Ph.D. in clinical psychology

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from the University of
Massachusetts Amherst.

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She is currently an Associate Professor

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of Clinical Psychology at Clark University

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as well as the director
of Clinical Training.

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Dr. Goldberg's interests
focus on how a variety

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of social locations,
gender, sexual orientation,

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and social class and contexts,

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work, family, community,

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shape processes of
development and mental health.

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Her research focuses on parenthood,

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relationship quality,

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and well-being in diverse families,

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adoptive parent families,

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lesbian and gay parent families,

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in an effort to increase our understanding

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of family diversity.

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She is currently conducting
a longitudinal study

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of adoptive parenthood in
a diverse group of couples.

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In addition, her current
work includes a study

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of postpartum well-being in women

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with diverse sexual histories

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and a study on the
experience of transgender

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and gender non-conforming students.

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Dr. Goldberg teaches courses
on gender and families,

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diversity and contemporary families,

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research methods with diverse families,

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human sexuality and ethics
in clinical psychology.

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The work of Abbie Goldberg has been used

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to influence debates
about same-sex marriage,

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second parent adoption,

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anti-discrimination laws

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and how to deploy research
to make a difference

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for oppressed communities.

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Today, for my family,

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me,

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I benefit from her work.

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So thank you, Abbie,
for joining us tonight.

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(applause)

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- That was a lovely introduction.

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I appreciate all of you being here

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at such a difficult time.

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So I think it's somewhat apropos,

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I am talking about people
of marginalized identities,

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and so hopefully we can have
a productive conversation

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when I'm complete.

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So, I wanna just sit here in appreciation

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for being here at Smith.

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I have a lot of really
wonderful ties to Smith.

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My daughter goes to the campus school.

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We have wonderful babysitters
from Smith College.

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And I actually lived on Washington Ave

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when I was in graduate
school at U Mass Amherst,

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which is very, very
close to Smith College.

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And I used to study in
the science library.

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So, a lot of really,

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a lot of positive associations with Smith,

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and I'm delighted to
have to only drive here

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from Easthampton,

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which normally I have to go
a lot further to give a talk.

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So I wanna start this talk

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by actually giving a little bit

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of relevant background and context

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for what I'm gonna be talking about today.

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So, often I will look at a
scholar's body of research

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and I'll look at publications
that they've produced

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early in their career

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and their more current
publications or work,

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and I'll wonder, how did
they get from here to there?

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How did they get from
studying infant eye-tracking

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to studying racial attitudes
in college students.

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Or, childhood anxiety

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and to studying gender
differences in depression.

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So, I'll really wonder,

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what's the story here?

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How did we get from here to there?

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So I'm gonna give you a
little bit of my story

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and sort of explain to you a little bit

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of how I got to thinking
about and doing research

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on lesbian, gay, and
heterosexual adoptive families.

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So.

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I started my work at U Mass Amherst.

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I came to U Mass Amherst
specifically to work with

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a woman named Maureen Perry-Jenkins,

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a scholar of family studies
in the psychology department

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who is doing absolutely amazing work,

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really revolutionary work on marginalized.

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and under-served families,

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which was an area of research for me.

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So Maureen was conducting
a study of working class,

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heterosexual couples who were making

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their first transition to parenthood,

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so all these couples had

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less than a Bachelor's
degree in education,

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and many of them were
working low-wage jobs.

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And this was really revolutionary

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because most of the research
on the transition to parenthood

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had been conducted on
middle-class families.

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So families with a lot of financial

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and educational resources.

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So her work was really looking at

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what are unique challenges
faced by working class couples

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when they become parents
for the first time.

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So, for the study,

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we recruited through
prenatal education classes

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all through the Pioneer Valley,

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we went to Mercy,

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we went to Bay State,

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and we told them about the study

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and we told them the inclusion criteria

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and we asked them if they
wanted to participate.

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So the criteria were that both partners

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had to have less than a
college degree education,

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they had to be working full time,

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they had to be planning to
return to work full time

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after the birth of their first child,

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and,

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they had to be heterosexual.

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So,

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this was just the stipulation
of the grant, right?

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You can't study everything,

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and so all these couples
had to be heterosexual.

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So what happened is on several occasions,

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I was doing my little spiel,

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telling people about the study
at these prenatal ed classes,

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and I had lesbian couples

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who were interested in participating.

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And I had to tell them no,

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which was really, really difficult.

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And so I started thinking
a lot about that,

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about whose stories are heard

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and whose stories go unheard.

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About which voices were missing.

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And so I started digging
into the research.

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And I found that in contrast
to hundreds and hundreds

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of studies that looked at
the transition to parenthood

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for heterosexual couples,

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00:11:18.132 --> 00:11:20.902
I could find only a
single study that examines

268
00:11:20.902 --> 00:11:23.572
some aspects of the
transition to parenthood

269
00:11:23.572 --> 00:11:25.540
for female same-sex couples,

270
00:11:25.540 --> 00:11:29.469
which I'll refer to as lesbian couples.

271
00:11:29.469 --> 00:11:30.446
So.

272
00:11:30.446 --> 00:11:33.649
That study was conducted
by Nanette Gartrell,

273
00:11:33.649 --> 00:11:35.350
here with her adorable dogs.

274
00:11:35.350 --> 00:11:37.619
She is a friend and a colleague of mine.

275
00:11:37.619 --> 00:11:41.089
And she was very excited that
I used this picture of her.

276
00:11:41.089 --> 00:11:45.527
And so this giant gaping
hole in the research

277
00:11:45.527 --> 00:11:47.163
was just sort of staring at me.

278
00:11:47.163 --> 00:11:49.165
And right around the same time,

279
00:11:49.165 --> 00:11:51.333
I was living in the Pioneer Valley,

280
00:11:51.333 --> 00:11:54.036
I was actually a volunteer at Pride Zone,

281
00:11:54.036 --> 00:11:56.638
which was a queer youth
center in the Maplewood Shops,

282
00:11:56.638 --> 00:11:59.007
and running groups there for children

283
00:11:59.007 --> 00:12:02.177
of lesbian and gay,
bisexual and queer parents.

284
00:12:02.177 --> 00:12:04.313
And so my advocacy efforts,

285
00:12:04.313 --> 00:12:07.349
this huge gap in the research,

286
00:12:07.349 --> 00:12:12.053
kind of came together and
really inspired me to do

287
00:12:12.053 --> 00:12:14.222
what was the first longitudinal study

288
00:12:14.222 --> 00:12:17.560
of female same-sex couples
pursuing parenthood.

289
00:12:17.560 --> 00:12:19.327
So.

290
00:12:19.327 --> 00:12:21.446
Terrible acronym.

291
00:12:21.446 --> 00:12:23.731
(chuckles) I was determined
to eventually do a study

292
00:12:23.731 --> 00:12:24.933
with a better one,

293
00:12:24.933 --> 00:12:26.067
so this study was called,

294
00:12:26.067 --> 00:12:29.137
The Transition to Parenthood
for Lesbian Couples Project.

295
00:12:29.137 --> 00:12:31.940
T.P.L.C.P., See? I can't even remember it.

296
00:12:31.940 --> 00:12:36.144
And so much to the chagrin
of my dissertation committee,

297
00:12:36.144 --> 00:12:37.979
I proposed a longitudinal study.

298
00:12:37.979 --> 00:12:41.709
So, they were very fearful
that I would never leave,

299
00:12:41.709 --> 00:12:44.085
and they really discouraged
me from doing this.

300
00:12:44.085 --> 00:12:46.555
But I did eventually get out of there.

301
00:12:46.555 --> 00:12:48.891
So I followed female couples

302
00:12:48.891 --> 00:12:50.825
across the transition to parenthood.

303
00:12:50.825 --> 00:12:52.260
I interviewed lesbian couples,

304
00:12:52.260 --> 00:12:54.095
biological and non-biological mothers,

305
00:12:54.095 --> 00:12:57.178
before and after they became parents.

306
00:12:58.482 --> 00:13:00.201
So I interviewed women separately,

307
00:13:00.201 --> 00:13:03.037
they also completed a
number of questionnaires,

308
00:13:03.037 --> 00:13:05.374
and I recruited them
from prenatal ed classes,

309
00:13:05.374 --> 00:13:07.643
OB's, LGBT organizations,

310
00:13:07.643 --> 00:13:08.476
and so on.

311
00:13:09.994 --> 00:13:11.813
So it was a mixed-method study,

312
00:13:11.813 --> 00:13:14.749
got both interview data as
well as questionnaire data.

313
00:13:14.749 --> 00:13:17.485
And the sample was mostly white.

314
00:13:17.485 --> 00:13:20.456
So this was a mostly white,
fairly well-educated sample.

315
00:13:20.456 --> 00:13:24.392
About 75% of them had at
least a Bachelor's degree.

316
00:13:24.392 --> 00:13:27.688
They were making about
40 to 50 thousand dollars

317
00:13:27.688 --> 00:13:28.997
on average per year.

318
00:13:28.997 --> 00:13:31.000
And non-biological mothers made more money

319
00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:33.000
than biological mothers.

320
00:13:34.235 --> 00:13:35.380
So, I'm not gonna go

321
00:13:35.380 --> 00:13:38.272
into the findings of the study in depth,

322
00:13:38.272 --> 00:13:41.377
but what I can tell you are
just some basic findings

323
00:13:41.377 --> 00:13:44.846
'cause they form the basis
of the work that came next.

324
00:13:44.846 --> 00:13:47.148
So, in terms of donors,

325
00:13:47.148 --> 00:13:50.018
60% of these women used
an anonymous sperm donor,

326
00:13:50.018 --> 00:13:51.920
so sperm from a sperm bank.

327
00:13:51.920 --> 00:13:54.556
40% used a known donor,

328
00:13:54.556 --> 00:13:58.593
so an acquaintance or friend
donated sperm to them.

329
00:13:58.593 --> 00:14:00.696
In 41% of the cases,

330
00:14:00.696 --> 00:14:03.131
women decided who would carry the child

331
00:14:03.131 --> 00:14:05.802
based on who had the
greater desire or interest.

332
00:14:05.802 --> 00:14:08.670
So one partner had a stronger
desire to be pregnant,

333
00:14:08.670 --> 00:14:09.604
carry the child,

334
00:14:09.604 --> 00:14:11.539
be biologically related to the child,

335
00:14:11.539 --> 00:14:12.741
nurse, and so on.

336
00:14:12.741 --> 00:14:14.210
So it was a very easy decision.

337
00:14:14.210 --> 00:14:15.544
One partner wanted to be pregnant,

338
00:14:15.544 --> 00:14:18.446
the other one said, "No, thank you."

339
00:14:18.446 --> 00:14:19.982
In 14% of the cases,

340
00:14:19.982 --> 00:14:22.317
fertility reasons were
the primary reasons.

341
00:14:22.317 --> 00:14:24.720
So, the non-biological
mother had tried to conceive

342
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:26.187
but been unsuccessful.

343
00:14:26.187 --> 00:14:29.024
And so the biological mother
became the biological mother

344
00:14:29.024 --> 00:14:31.293
by default.

345
00:14:31.293 --> 00:14:35.831
And in the remaining 45% of cases,

346
00:14:35.831 --> 00:14:38.500
the decision was made based on age,

347
00:14:38.500 --> 00:14:41.102
so the younger partner was chosen to go

348
00:14:41.102 --> 00:14:43.038
because they thought she
would have more success,

349
00:14:43.038 --> 00:14:43.871
or in some cases,

350
00:14:43.871 --> 00:14:45.733
if they wanted to have
more than one child,

351
00:14:45.733 --> 00:14:47.009
the older partner was chosen

352
00:14:47.009 --> 00:14:48.702
thinking that the younger partner

353
00:14:48.702 --> 00:14:50.679
would have subsequent children.

354
00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:52.715
Or, in some cases, health issues,

355
00:14:52.715 --> 00:14:54.984
so one partner had a history of cancer,

356
00:14:54.984 --> 00:14:56.884
or chronic health conditions,

357
00:14:56.884 --> 00:14:59.421
making it more appropriate
for the other partner

358
00:14:59.421 --> 00:15:00.789
to carry the child.

359
00:15:00.789 --> 00:15:03.424
And then sometimes career
considerations were a factor.

360
00:15:03.424 --> 00:15:05.260
So, one partner made less money,

361
00:15:05.260 --> 00:15:06.762
significantly less money,

362
00:15:06.762 --> 00:15:11.199
or simply wanted to take
time off from a job or career

363
00:15:11.199 --> 00:15:13.869
and one partner did not.

364
00:15:13.869 --> 00:15:15.672
So a big focus of this research,

365
00:15:15.672 --> 00:15:17.772
I was very interested in
these women's experiences

366
00:15:17.772 --> 00:15:20.241
of stigma as they built their families.

367
00:15:20.241 --> 00:15:22.978
And so, we found that
about 25% of the women

368
00:15:22.978 --> 00:15:26.782
reported experiencing stigma
from healthcare providers.

369
00:15:26.782 --> 00:15:29.651
And the most typical sort
of form that this took

370
00:15:29.651 --> 00:15:33.488
was that non-biological
mothers felt really excluded

371
00:15:33.488 --> 00:15:36.726
or kind of minimized
in the birthing sphere.

372
00:15:36.726 --> 00:15:38.494
So in some cases they were told

373
00:15:38.494 --> 00:15:39.928
that they couldn't be present

374
00:15:39.928 --> 00:15:41.863
during the insemination process.

375
00:15:41.863 --> 00:15:46.001
Or they were asked to sit
in a chair outside the room

376
00:15:46.001 --> 00:15:48.637
during some of the prenatal visits.

377
00:15:48.637 --> 00:15:52.107
They were persistently asked
who's playing the father role,

378
00:15:52.107 --> 00:15:53.474
where was the husband,

379
00:15:53.474 --> 00:15:55.344
where was the father.

380
00:15:55.344 --> 00:16:00.104
In some cases, in child
birth education classes,

381
00:16:00.104 --> 00:16:02.910
women politely requested
that the facilitator

382
00:16:02.910 --> 00:16:04.252
use the term "partner"

383
00:16:04.252 --> 00:16:06.321
as opposed to "husband and wife."

384
00:16:06.321 --> 00:16:09.238
And in some cases, were told, "no."

385
00:16:10.225 --> 00:16:14.142
Or their wishes just went
kind of unrecognized.

386
00:16:16.922 --> 00:16:19.033
(clears throat)

387
00:16:19.033 --> 00:16:20.102
So you can take a quick second

388
00:16:20.102 --> 00:16:23.120
to look at this little cartoon.

389
00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:24.507
This is kind of the classic

390
00:16:24.507 --> 00:16:27.241
transition to parenthood scenario.

391
00:16:27.241 --> 00:16:29.978
People often have no idea the stress

392
00:16:29.978 --> 00:16:33.315
and challenges that accompany
the transition to parenthood.

393
00:16:33.315 --> 00:16:34.850
And so a big focus of this work

394
00:16:34.850 --> 00:16:38.086
was to really examine how
women's lives and well-being

395
00:16:38.086 --> 00:16:40.988
changed across the transition.

396
00:16:40.988 --> 00:16:43.458
This is consistent with a lot
of transition to parenthood

397
00:16:43.458 --> 00:16:45.694
research which typically
looks at relationship quality

398
00:16:45.694 --> 00:16:48.296
and mental health across the transition.

399
00:16:48.296 --> 00:16:50.674
So we found that very similar

400
00:16:50.674 --> 00:16:53.302
to biological heterosexual
parent families,

401
00:16:53.302 --> 00:16:55.938
women reported declining
relationship quality

402
00:16:55.938 --> 00:16:57.105
and mental health.

403
00:16:57.105 --> 00:16:59.207
So this is very normative.

404
00:16:59.207 --> 00:17:03.111
All couples experience
declining relationship quality

405
00:17:03.111 --> 00:17:05.314
and mental health.

406
00:17:05.314 --> 00:17:06.681
Increased anxiety,

407
00:17:06.681 --> 00:17:08.083
increased symptoms of depression,

408
00:17:08.083 --> 00:17:09.484
fatigue,

409
00:17:09.484 --> 00:17:11.019
conflict with your partner,

410
00:17:11.019 --> 00:17:12.721
feelings of feeling less
close to your partner.

411
00:17:12.721 --> 00:17:13.554
If you're a parent,

412
00:17:13.554 --> 00:17:15.057
this probably sounds familiar.

413
00:17:15.057 --> 00:17:16.324
You have less time together.

414
00:17:16.324 --> 00:17:18.527
You're renegotiating
family and work roles.

415
00:17:18.527 --> 00:17:20.828
You're getting less sleep.

416
00:17:20.828 --> 00:17:23.665
You can't remember things
from moment to moment,

417
00:17:23.665 --> 00:17:25.967
so this is not really that surprising.

418
00:17:25.967 --> 00:17:27.768
But not everybody suffered equally.

419
00:17:27.768 --> 00:17:28.837
So we found that couples

420
00:17:28.837 --> 00:17:31.640
that shared housework more equally

421
00:17:31.640 --> 00:17:34.208
and were more satisfied with
the division of housework

422
00:17:34.208 --> 00:17:35.776
as well as paid work,

423
00:17:35.776 --> 00:17:39.447
experienced greater relationship
quality and mental health.

424
00:17:39.447 --> 00:17:41.449
Likewise, parents who
perceived their infants

425
00:17:41.449 --> 00:17:43.852
as less difficult, as easier,

426
00:17:43.852 --> 00:17:46.353
also experienced better outcomes.

427
00:17:46.353 --> 00:17:50.291
And finally, parents who
reported experiencing

428
00:17:50.291 --> 00:17:53.361
or receiving more
practical forms of support,

429
00:17:53.361 --> 00:17:55.596
like babysitting and financial support

430
00:17:55.596 --> 00:17:56.832
from family and friends,

431
00:17:56.832 --> 00:17:59.582
also experienced better outcomes.

432
00:18:01.259 --> 00:18:02.705
Looking at the division of labor,

433
00:18:02.705 --> 00:18:05.174
we found something fairly interesting.

434
00:18:05.174 --> 00:18:08.009
So housework was actually
divided fairly equally

435
00:18:08.009 --> 00:18:09.277
across the transition.

436
00:18:09.277 --> 00:18:11.579
So biological and
non-biological lesbian mothers

437
00:18:11.579 --> 00:18:12.981
shared housework equally

438
00:18:12.981 --> 00:18:15.182
before and after they became parents.

439
00:18:15.182 --> 00:18:17.853
Not surprisingly, bio-moms
did more childcare,

440
00:18:17.853 --> 00:18:18.686
that makes sense, right?

441
00:18:18.686 --> 00:18:19.821
They're breastfeeding,

442
00:18:19.821 --> 00:18:22.224
they often had more generous
and extensive leaves,

443
00:18:22.224 --> 00:18:23.691
and so on.

444
00:18:23.691 --> 00:18:25.794
And non-bio moms were
doing more paid work.

445
00:18:25.794 --> 00:18:27.995
But when we look at these women

446
00:18:27.995 --> 00:18:30.965
compared to heterosexual
couples in prior studies,

447
00:18:30.965 --> 00:18:35.803
we see that non-bio moms
are doing far more childcare

448
00:18:35.803 --> 00:18:37.371
than heterosexual fathers.

449
00:18:37.371 --> 00:18:39.541
And we know this because
we used the same measure

450
00:18:39.541 --> 00:18:41.776
of the division of labor
as many previous studies.

451
00:18:41.776 --> 00:18:44.579
We're able to compare
ratings across studies.

452
00:18:44.579 --> 00:18:48.584
So basically, we see that
heteronormative gendered scripts

453
00:18:48.584 --> 00:18:52.787
for parenting roles do
not totally function

454
00:18:52.787 --> 00:18:54.055
in the same way.

455
00:18:54.055 --> 00:18:56.090
They don't dictate the division of labor.

456
00:18:56.090 --> 00:18:58.861
Couples are sharing
housework more equally.

457
00:18:58.861 --> 00:19:00.629
But the biological differential,

458
00:19:00.629 --> 00:19:02.497
the fact that one
partner carried the child

459
00:19:02.497 --> 00:19:04.066
and one partner did not,

460
00:19:04.066 --> 00:19:08.149
does have implications
for the division of labor.

461
00:19:09.503 --> 00:19:10.586
So.

462
00:19:12.040 --> 00:19:14.676
I was left with all
these different questions

463
00:19:14.676 --> 00:19:15.977
and these are a couple of the questions

464
00:19:15.977 --> 00:19:17.879
that I started thinking about.

465
00:19:17.879 --> 00:19:19.146
So,

466
00:19:19.146 --> 00:19:21.049
what does the transition
to parenthood look like

467
00:19:21.049 --> 00:19:24.986
for female couples in
which neither partner

468
00:19:24.986 --> 00:19:27.188
has a biological link to their child,

469
00:19:27.188 --> 00:19:28.723
i.e. in adoptive couples?

470
00:19:28.723 --> 00:19:30.625
What does the transition
to parenthood look like

471
00:19:30.625 --> 00:19:31.760
for gay male couples?

472
00:19:31.760 --> 00:19:34.229
At this point, there had
not been a single study

473
00:19:34.229 --> 00:19:36.097
to examine the transition to parenthood

474
00:19:36.097 --> 00:19:37.632
for gay men.

475
00:19:37.632 --> 00:19:39.367
And finally, what does the transition

476
00:19:39.367 --> 00:19:41.302
to adoptive parenthood look like?

477
00:19:41.302 --> 00:19:43.305
So, I was actually shocked to find

478
00:19:43.305 --> 00:19:45.973
that there was one study out of Israel

479
00:19:45.973 --> 00:19:48.644
that looked at the transition
to adoptive parenthood.

480
00:19:48.644 --> 00:19:51.012
Again, and this is contrast
to hundreds and hundreds

481
00:19:51.012 --> 00:19:54.316
of studies looking at
biological parenthood.

482
00:19:54.316 --> 00:19:55.917
So.

483
00:19:55.917 --> 00:19:58.553
I launched the Transition to
Adoptive Parenthood Project,

484
00:19:58.553 --> 00:20:01.722
which had a great acronym we
could refer to all the time

485
00:20:01.722 --> 00:20:03.492
in our lab, T.A.P.P.

486
00:20:03.492 --> 00:20:05.526
And this study went actually far beyond

487
00:20:05.526 --> 00:20:07.662
a transition to parenthood study,

488
00:20:07.662 --> 00:20:11.033
we've actually followed up
our couples now for 10 years,

489
00:20:11.033 --> 00:20:13.783
going on 11 in over seven phases.

490
00:20:14.803 --> 00:20:16.337
So.

491
00:20:16.337 --> 00:20:19.808
The sample consists of 185 couples,

492
00:20:19.808 --> 00:20:22.511
about 45 gay male couples,

493
00:20:22.511 --> 00:20:23.578
60 lesbian,

494
00:20:23.578 --> 00:20:25.113
and 80 heterosexual couples.

495
00:20:25.113 --> 00:20:27.323
And we recruited them
from all over the U.S.,

496
00:20:27.323 --> 00:20:32.154
from adoption agencies as well
as from LGBT organizations.

497
00:20:32.154 --> 00:20:35.222
This was an extremely hard sample to get,

498
00:20:35.222 --> 00:20:38.760
which is why it took us from 2005 to 2010

499
00:20:38.760 --> 00:20:40.360
and it was really hard
because we're looking

500
00:20:40.360 --> 00:20:42.263
at a very specific group of people

501
00:20:42.263 --> 00:20:46.034
and we have to get them
before they adopted.

502
00:20:46.034 --> 00:20:47.936
So that's really challenging.

503
00:20:47.936 --> 00:20:49.503
So I joked with my students a lot

504
00:20:49.503 --> 00:20:52.240
that it took us six
years to get the sample

505
00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:54.726
and I'm never gonna recruit another sample

506
00:20:54.726 --> 00:20:56.344
and so eventually we'll
have the transition

507
00:20:56.344 --> 00:20:58.580
to grandparenthood study. (laughter)

508
00:20:58.580 --> 00:21:01.317
We'll just keep following
them forever and ever.

509
00:21:01.317 --> 00:21:03.385
And some of our participants are like,

510
00:21:03.385 --> 00:21:06.588
"We're with you. We'll stay in the study."

511
00:21:06.588 --> 00:21:10.024
So we've assessed these couples
now at seven time points.

512
00:21:10.024 --> 00:21:11.692
So we started pre-adoption

513
00:21:11.692 --> 00:21:13.194
and then we've continued to follow them up

514
00:21:13.194 --> 00:21:14.461
three months after,

515
00:21:14.461 --> 00:21:15.998
one year, two years,

516
00:21:15.998 --> 00:21:17.899
three years, fives years,

517
00:21:17.899 --> 00:21:19.233
and most recently, eight years.

518
00:21:19.233 --> 00:21:22.770
So we're not interviewing couples
as well as their children,

519
00:21:22.770 --> 00:21:24.706
which is a lot of fun.

520
00:21:24.706 --> 00:21:25.806
Interviewing eight to nine years olds

521
00:21:25.806 --> 00:21:27.809
is really, really fun.

522
00:21:27.809 --> 00:21:30.279
So we didn't interview
them at every time point

523
00:21:30.279 --> 00:21:33.581
but we gave questionnaires
at every time point.

524
00:21:33.581 --> 00:21:37.551
So, again this is a mostly
well-educated sample.

525
00:21:37.551 --> 00:21:41.021
About 70% have at least
a bachelor's degree.

526
00:21:41.021 --> 00:21:45.127
They're fairly affluent but
there's huge ranges in income,

527
00:21:45.127 --> 00:21:48.762
from $20,000 to $700,000.

528
00:21:48.762 --> 00:21:52.595
An average income is
about $95,000 per family,

529
00:21:53.868 --> 00:21:55.669
with lesbian couples on the low end,

530
00:21:55.669 --> 00:21:59.374
and gay male couples on the higher end.

531
00:21:59.374 --> 00:22:00.875
The parents are mostly white

532
00:22:00.875 --> 00:22:02.877
and the children are mostly of color,

533
00:22:02.877 --> 00:22:06.915
including biracial and
multiracial children.

534
00:22:06.915 --> 00:22:08.716
They come from all over the United States.

535
00:22:08.716 --> 00:22:13.155
75% of them are from the
east coast or west coast.

536
00:22:13.155 --> 00:22:16.891
About a quarter are
from mid-west or south.

537
00:22:16.891 --> 00:22:18.177
And the majority of them have done

538
00:22:18.177 --> 00:22:19.794
private domestic adoptions

539
00:22:19.794 --> 00:22:23.206
so this is adoption
through an adoption agency

540
00:22:23.206 --> 00:22:26.541
where they pay money and they typically

541
00:22:26.541 --> 00:22:30.708
are on the receiving end of
an infant or even a newborn.

542
00:22:31.973 --> 00:22:34.341
22% pursued public adoption,

543
00:22:34.341 --> 00:22:36.879
which is basically foster-care adoption

544
00:22:36.879 --> 00:22:38.579
or child welfare adoption.

545
00:22:38.579 --> 00:22:42.662
And then 20% pursued
international adoption.

546
00:22:47.188 --> 00:22:49.491
(clears throat)

547
00:22:49.491 --> 00:22:51.426
So one big focus of the study has been the

548
00:22:51.426 --> 00:22:53.594
has been the kinds of
challenges that couples face

549
00:22:53.594 --> 00:22:55.764
when they actually try to adopt.

550
00:22:55.764 --> 00:22:56.964
So not surprisingly,

551
00:22:56.964 --> 00:22:58.833
and something that I'm not
gonna go into too much depth,

552
00:22:58.833 --> 00:23:01.618
is that really, of course,
these couples face a lot

553
00:23:01.618 --> 00:23:03.472
of legal challenges in adopting.

554
00:23:03.472 --> 00:23:05.373
And so in our sample of same-sex couples,

555
00:23:05.373 --> 00:23:07.324
we found that a quarter of them,

556
00:23:07.324 --> 00:23:09.243
when they initially adopted,

557
00:23:09.243 --> 00:23:12.681
only one parents was able
to legally adopt the child.

558
00:23:12.681 --> 00:23:14.357
So in some cases,

559
00:23:14.357 --> 00:23:17.319
states and jurisdictions passed laws

560
00:23:17.319 --> 00:23:19.588
that eventually allowed
both parents to become

561
00:23:19.588 --> 00:23:21.088
legal adoptive parents,

562
00:23:21.088 --> 00:23:22.157
but at least initially,

563
00:23:22.157 --> 00:23:25.626
that child had only one
legal adoptive parent.

564
00:23:25.626 --> 00:23:27.528
Regarding agency-level barriers,

565
00:23:27.528 --> 00:23:28.964
we found that many couples faced

566
00:23:28.964 --> 00:23:31.333
outright discrimination from agencies,

567
00:23:31.333 --> 00:23:33.769
particularly religiously-oriented agencies

568
00:23:33.769 --> 00:23:36.505
or affiliated agencies
like Catholic Charities,

569
00:23:36.505 --> 00:23:38.773
who simply said, "We just
won't work with you."

570
00:23:38.773 --> 00:23:40.074
Now this was a problem

571
00:23:40.074 --> 00:23:42.977
because many of the religiously
affiliated agencies,

572
00:23:42.977 --> 00:23:44.145
like Catholic Charities,

573
00:23:44.145 --> 00:23:45.947
are the cheaper agencies

574
00:23:45.947 --> 00:23:47.715
and they're the most local agencies.

575
00:23:47.715 --> 00:23:49.617
So some couples had to incur

576
00:23:49.617 --> 00:23:52.052
incredible time and financial losses.

577
00:23:52.052 --> 00:23:53.454
We had couples who were flying

578
00:23:53.454 --> 00:23:56.256
to meet with their adoption agencies,

579
00:23:56.256 --> 00:23:59.661
who were spending so much
money on an adoption agency

580
00:23:59.661 --> 00:24:01.629
that they had to get a third mortgage,

581
00:24:01.629 --> 00:24:05.900
move from a house to an
apartment, and so on.

582
00:24:05.900 --> 00:24:08.770
We found that many couples
felt unusually scrutinized

583
00:24:08.770 --> 00:24:09.804
by their agencies.

584
00:24:09.804 --> 00:24:11.740
So they were asked what
they felt were kind of

585
00:24:11.740 --> 00:24:14.942
rude, insensitive, or
overly-intrusive questions

586
00:24:14.942 --> 00:24:17.669
of a kind of vaguely heterosexist nature.

587
00:24:17.669 --> 00:24:21.048
They were very

588
00:24:21.048 --> 00:24:22.884
concerned that heterosexual
couples probably

589
00:24:22.884 --> 00:24:24.452
were not asked these same questions

590
00:24:24.452 --> 00:24:26.721
so they were scrutinized
or asked a lot of questions

591
00:24:26.721 --> 00:24:28.456
about their sleeping arrangements,

592
00:24:28.456 --> 00:24:31.093
or about their preferences
for a same-sex child,

593
00:24:31.093 --> 00:24:31.992
for example.

594
00:24:31.992 --> 00:24:34.562
Long lines of questioning.

595
00:24:34.562 --> 00:24:35.729
Very commonly,

596
00:24:36.981 --> 00:24:39.334
couples reported a lot
of uncertainty about

597
00:24:39.334 --> 00:24:41.302
whether they were being
discriminated against.

598
00:24:41.302 --> 00:24:42.604
They weren't sure.

599
00:24:42.604 --> 00:24:45.506
So, when they had their
telephone calls go unanswered,

600
00:24:45.506 --> 00:24:48.409
when they waited for months to
hear about a child placement,

601
00:24:48.409 --> 00:24:51.146
when they were ignored at
adoption agency trainings,

602
00:24:51.146 --> 00:24:52.045
they didn't know.

603
00:24:52.045 --> 00:24:54.582
Is it because of we're a
same-sex couple, or not?

604
00:24:54.582 --> 00:24:56.016
And they were afraid of saying anything

605
00:24:56.016 --> 00:24:58.921
because quite frankly, they
were afraid of making waves,

606
00:24:58.921 --> 00:25:01.255
or being black-balled by their agency

607
00:25:01.255 --> 00:25:04.725
and being further deprioritized by them.

608
00:25:04.725 --> 00:25:06.929
Some of them wondered whether
adoption professionals

609
00:25:06.929 --> 00:25:11.198
were engaging in this
practice of, as one man said,

610
00:25:11.198 --> 00:25:12.900
"trying to give us the most damaged kids

611
00:25:12.900 --> 00:25:14.468
"they know no one will take."

612
00:25:14.468 --> 00:25:16.738
So, engaging in this
practice of trying to match

613
00:25:16.738 --> 00:25:18.605
the least desirable children

614
00:25:18.605 --> 00:25:20.675
with the least desirable applicants,

615
00:25:20.675 --> 00:25:22.508
i.e. same-sex couples.

616
00:25:25.729 --> 00:25:29.217
So, we found that couples
were very resourceful.

617
00:25:29.217 --> 00:25:31.786
To avoid bias and discrimination,

618
00:25:31.786 --> 00:25:32.954
they did a lot of research.

619
00:25:32.954 --> 00:25:34.188
They did online research,

620
00:25:34.188 --> 00:25:36.057
they went to visit agencies in person,

621
00:25:36.057 --> 00:25:38.260
they asked agencies for referrals

622
00:25:38.260 --> 00:25:40.962
of other same-sex couples
that had used their services

623
00:25:40.962 --> 00:25:43.197
to find out if in fact
they were so fabulous

624
00:25:43.197 --> 00:25:45.132
as they were saying they were.

625
00:25:45.132 --> 00:25:47.835
They really used the power that they had

626
00:25:47.835 --> 00:25:49.471
to make informed choices

627
00:25:49.471 --> 00:25:50.938
about who they would work with.

628
00:25:50.938 --> 00:25:53.040
But of course, couples
with more educational

629
00:25:53.040 --> 00:25:55.344
and financial resources had more power.

630
00:25:55.344 --> 00:25:56.910
They could be more selective.

631
00:25:56.910 --> 00:25:59.715
So what we saw was that
couples with fewer resources

632
00:25:59.715 --> 00:26:03.118
often ended up working with
the least affirming agencies

633
00:26:03.118 --> 00:26:06.262
'cause they couldn't really
afford to be more picky,

634
00:26:06.262 --> 00:26:07.755
be more choosy.

635
00:26:07.755 --> 00:26:11.358
And many of them often
ultimately did find agencies

636
00:26:11.358 --> 00:26:13.727
that they felt were
respectful and affirming,

637
00:26:13.727 --> 00:26:17.799
that cultivated an attitude
of acceptance and inclusion.

638
00:26:17.799 --> 00:26:21.202
And this was really marked
by some very specific,

639
00:26:21.202 --> 00:26:23.070
tangible things that they did.

640
00:26:23.070 --> 00:26:25.506
So they stated their
openness to same-sex couples

641
00:26:25.506 --> 00:26:27.141
in their agency materials,

642
00:26:27.141 --> 00:26:28.309
on their websites, they said,

643
00:26:28.309 --> 00:26:30.945
"We will work with same-sex couples."

644
00:26:30.945 --> 00:26:33.113
Their visuals and their
offices and websites

645
00:26:33.113 --> 00:26:34.448
included same-sex couples

646
00:26:34.448 --> 00:26:37.918
who had successfully adopted
through their services.

647
00:26:37.918 --> 00:26:40.621
Their written materials
were explicitly sensitive

648
00:26:40.621 --> 00:26:43.724
to the fact that not every
family was a husband and wife,

649
00:26:43.724 --> 00:26:44.658
a man and a woman,

650
00:26:44.658 --> 00:26:46.660
so they said, "Please,
designate yourselves

651
00:26:46.660 --> 00:26:49.998
"as Parent One, Parent Two," for example.

652
00:26:49.998 --> 00:26:52.232
They offered support groups
that were inclusive of

653
00:26:52.232 --> 00:26:56.149
or sometimes specific
geared at LGBTQ adopters.

654
00:26:57.004 --> 00:26:59.373
And they offered trainings specifically

655
00:26:59.373 --> 00:27:03.144
for the unique challenges that
same-sex couples might face,

656
00:27:03.144 --> 00:27:06.977
for example, with respect
to legal challenges.

657
00:27:10.350 --> 00:27:12.886
So at the same time that
the adoption process

658
00:27:12.886 --> 00:27:14.931
can be really uniquely stressful

659
00:27:14.931 --> 00:27:16.325
for same-sex couples,

660
00:27:16.325 --> 00:27:19.461
they also bring certain
important and unique strengths

661
00:27:19.461 --> 00:27:21.037
to adopting.

662
00:27:21.037 --> 00:27:22.396
So.

663
00:27:22.396 --> 00:27:25.800
Same-sex couples are more
likely to choose adoption,

664
00:27:25.800 --> 00:27:29.104
to select it as their first
choice route to parenthood.

665
00:27:29.104 --> 00:27:29.971
Okay.

666
00:27:29.971 --> 00:27:31.673
Heterosexual couples are more likely

667
00:27:31.673 --> 00:27:35.217
to come to adoption after difficulties

668
00:27:35.217 --> 00:27:36.677
in conceiving.

669
00:27:36.677 --> 00:27:37.980
After infertility.

670
00:27:37.980 --> 00:27:39.112
So in our sample,

671
00:27:39.112 --> 00:27:41.849
50% of the lesbian couples
had tried to conceive,

672
00:27:41.849 --> 00:27:45.253
compared to 88% of heterosexual couples.

673
00:27:45.253 --> 00:27:48.122
And furthermore, lesbian
couples moved more quickly

674
00:27:48.122 --> 00:27:50.057
to adoption when their
insemination efforts

675
00:27:50.057 --> 00:27:51.140
did not work.

676
00:27:52.884 --> 00:27:54.956
So, they weren't as likely to try

677
00:27:54.956 --> 00:27:56.697
for long periods of time

678
00:27:56.697 --> 00:27:58.966
and they were less likely to use expensive

679
00:27:58.966 --> 00:28:01.069
and extensive fertility treatments

680
00:28:01.069 --> 00:28:03.402
like in vitro fertilization.

681
00:28:05.306 --> 00:28:08.108
We also found that
among our white couples,

682
00:28:08.108 --> 00:28:10.778
same-sex couples were far more likely

683
00:28:10.778 --> 00:28:13.114
to be open to adopting a child of color

684
00:28:13.114 --> 00:28:16.050
as compared to heterosexual couples.

685
00:28:16.050 --> 00:28:18.886
So 90% versus 68%.

686
00:28:18.886 --> 00:28:20.254
And they didn't just talk the talk,

687
00:28:20.254 --> 00:28:21.623
they walked the walk.

688
00:28:21.623 --> 00:28:23.857
So we found that 75% almost,

689
00:28:23.857 --> 00:28:25.326
compared to 50%,

690
00:28:25.326 --> 00:28:29.159
were ultimately placed
with children of color.

691
00:28:30.597 --> 00:28:31.899
So why are they open?

692
00:28:31.899 --> 00:28:34.069
So both heterosexual and same-sex couples,

693
00:28:34.069 --> 00:28:35.736
when talking about why there were open

694
00:28:35.736 --> 00:28:37.438
to adopting a child of color,

695
00:28:37.438 --> 00:28:38.606
tend to talk about,

696
00:28:38.606 --> 00:28:40.974
"We live in a really diverse area," or,

697
00:28:40.974 --> 00:28:44.179
"we have really racially
diverse friends and family,

698
00:28:44.179 --> 00:28:46.747
"so we feel more equipped or prepared

699
00:28:46.747 --> 00:28:48.824
"to adopt a child of color."

700
00:28:48.824 --> 00:28:50.917
But same-sex couples also had

701
00:28:50.917 --> 00:28:52.754
some sort of unique things to say.

702
00:28:52.754 --> 00:28:54.254
So they were unique in highlighting

703
00:28:54.254 --> 00:28:56.323
their own stigmatized status

704
00:28:56.323 --> 00:28:58.392
as a reason for being open.

705
00:28:58.392 --> 00:29:01.595
So they didn't feel as
stigmatized minorities themselves

706
00:29:01.595 --> 00:29:04.031
that it was really fare to discriminate

707
00:29:04.031 --> 00:29:06.868
against a child based on
the color of their skin.

708
00:29:06.868 --> 00:29:09.202
So they said, "how could
we close ourselves off

709
00:29:09.202 --> 00:29:10.772
"to any particular child,

710
00:29:10.772 --> 00:29:13.474
"when we ourselves have
been discriminated against?"

711
00:29:13.474 --> 00:29:15.342
They also drew on their experiences

712
00:29:15.342 --> 00:29:17.678
of stigma related to
their sexual orientation

713
00:29:17.678 --> 00:29:20.982
as a kind of resource in terms of thinking

714
00:29:20.982 --> 00:29:22.850
about raising a child of color.

715
00:29:22.850 --> 00:29:24.619
So, they talked about,

716
00:29:24.619 --> 00:29:26.588
"I might not know what it's like

717
00:29:26.588 --> 00:29:28.623
"to be a child of color,

718
00:29:28.623 --> 00:29:31.525
"but I've had experiences
of stigma in my life

719
00:29:31.525 --> 00:29:35.275
"that I can draw upon
in raising this child."

720
00:29:39.506 --> 00:29:40.756
So.

721
00:29:41.703 --> 00:29:44.639
Another real strength that
same-sex couples bring

722
00:29:44.639 --> 00:29:47.041
to adoption is a particular appreciation

723
00:29:47.041 --> 00:29:49.444
for openness in adoption.

724
00:29:49.444 --> 00:29:52.279
So having contact with their
child's birth family members,

725
00:29:52.279 --> 00:29:54.248
and for those of you who don't know,

726
00:29:54.248 --> 00:29:58.152
openness is really the norm
in domestic adoptions today.

727
00:29:58.152 --> 00:29:59.953
And so most families,

728
00:29:59.953 --> 00:30:01.889
most adoptive families have contact

729
00:30:01.889 --> 00:30:04.359
with their children's
birth family members,

730
00:30:04.359 --> 00:30:05.259
birth parents.

731
00:30:05.259 --> 00:30:07.094
That might be just before the adoption,

732
00:30:07.094 --> 00:30:09.196
it might be before and after,

733
00:30:09.196 --> 00:30:10.197
it may be weekly,

734
00:30:10.197 --> 00:30:11.030
it may be monthly,

735
00:30:11.030 --> 00:30:11.863
it may be yearly,

736
00:30:11.863 --> 00:30:12.801
it may be every five years,

737
00:30:12.801 --> 00:30:14.168
it may be letters, phone calls,

738
00:30:14.168 --> 00:30:15.135
in-person visits,

739
00:30:15.135 --> 00:30:17.538
it's huge variability.

740
00:30:17.538 --> 00:30:19.907
But some contact is the norm.

741
00:30:19.907 --> 00:30:22.610
And so we found that in explaining

742
00:30:22.610 --> 00:30:25.012
why they were feeling to open

743
00:30:25.012 --> 00:30:27.715
to having contact with
birth family members,

744
00:30:27.715 --> 00:30:30.452
we found that same-sex
couples were really drawn

745
00:30:30.452 --> 00:30:34.355
to this philosophy of openness
and honesty and integrity.

746
00:30:34.355 --> 00:30:36.123
It resonated with them

747
00:30:36.123 --> 00:30:38.125
because they felt that they sort of felt

748
00:30:38.125 --> 00:30:40.094
the same way about their
sexual orientation.

749
00:30:40.094 --> 00:30:42.496
So they felt like they just
don't want any secrets,

750
00:30:42.496 --> 00:30:44.599
that having everything out
in the open was healthy

751
00:30:44.599 --> 00:30:45.834
for everybody.

752
00:30:45.834 --> 00:30:48.292
Whereas heterosexual couples
were more likely to say

753
00:30:48.292 --> 00:30:49.870
that they came to open adoption

754
00:30:49.870 --> 00:30:51.672
because they had to.

755
00:30:51.672 --> 00:30:53.841
That it was the practical
sort of necessity.

756
00:30:53.841 --> 00:30:56.811
That's the way the adoption was moving,

757
00:30:56.811 --> 00:31:00.314
and it was very hard to find
closed adoptions anymore.

758
00:31:00.314 --> 00:31:02.416
So they ultimately arrived at it

759
00:31:02.416 --> 00:31:05.319
because that's basically what
the agencies they pursued

760
00:31:05.319 --> 00:31:06.236
were doing.

761
00:31:07.954 --> 00:31:09.757
We also found that same-sex couples

762
00:31:09.757 --> 00:31:12.093
more easily conceived of and imagined

763
00:31:12.093 --> 00:31:14.160
their children...

764
00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:15.831
I'm sorry, conceived of birth family

765
00:31:15.831 --> 00:31:18.165
as extended family members.

766
00:31:18.165 --> 00:31:20.068
So they were more likely to say,

767
00:31:20.068 --> 00:31:22.670
"Of course, we embrace this birth family

768
00:31:22.670 --> 00:31:24.339
"as extended family of ours.

769
00:31:24.339 --> 00:31:25.740
"We're open to having them present

770
00:31:25.740 --> 00:31:28.108
"at the child's birthday and holidays."

771
00:31:28.108 --> 00:31:30.444
And they often related this to norms

772
00:31:30.444 --> 00:31:33.846
within the LGBT or Queer community,

773
00:31:33.846 --> 00:31:36.250
where ties, family ties,

774
00:31:36.250 --> 00:31:38.318
are really more based on affective,

775
00:31:38.318 --> 00:31:40.087
emotional ties and relationships

776
00:31:40.087 --> 00:31:41.622
than biological ties.

777
00:31:41.622 --> 00:31:45.693
So family is who you define it as family,

778
00:31:45.693 --> 00:31:48.029
not who you were born to.

779
00:31:48.029 --> 00:31:49.864
So one woman, for example, said,

780
00:31:49.864 --> 00:31:51.765
"We have a really strong chosen family

781
00:31:51.765 --> 00:31:53.501
"and intentional community,

782
00:31:53.501 --> 00:31:55.468
"and so the idea of different
structures of family

783
00:31:55.468 --> 00:31:57.570
"is really familiar and precious to us.

784
00:31:57.570 --> 00:32:00.900
"Open adoption is like
extending our family."

785
00:32:00.900 --> 00:32:02.620
Now, something we've found

786
00:32:02.620 --> 00:32:04.812
across all the years we've
been doing this study,

787
00:32:04.812 --> 00:32:06.780
and it pretty remarkable,

788
00:32:06.780 --> 00:32:10.251
is that gay dads have
really good relationships

789
00:32:10.251 --> 00:32:11.719
with birth family members,

790
00:32:11.719 --> 00:32:13.820
and particularly birth mothers.

791
00:32:13.820 --> 00:32:16.157
So, they attribute their
positive relationships

792
00:32:16.157 --> 00:32:19.092
to birth moms to the
fact that, as they say,

793
00:32:19.092 --> 00:32:21.128
"There's only one woman."

794
00:32:21.128 --> 00:32:22.596
There's no jealousy,

795
00:32:22.596 --> 00:32:24.865
there's no tension,
there's no competition,

796
00:32:24.865 --> 00:32:27.035
there's no difficult feelings surrounding

797
00:32:27.035 --> 00:32:28.402
who is the mother,

798
00:32:28.402 --> 00:32:30.237
who is the real mother figure.

799
00:32:30.237 --> 00:32:33.341
So gay fathers seem to enjoy
an ease with birth mothers

800
00:32:33.341 --> 00:32:35.243
that's really facilitated by the fact

801
00:32:35.243 --> 00:32:38.910
that there is only one
woman in the picture.

802
00:32:41.549 --> 00:32:43.085
Okay.

803
00:32:43.085 --> 00:32:44.819
So again, the vast majority of studies

804
00:32:44.819 --> 00:32:46.920
on the transition to
parenthood have been conducted

805
00:32:46.920 --> 00:32:49.190
on heterosexual biological parents.

806
00:32:49.190 --> 00:32:51.784
Again, it's a time of stress,

807
00:32:51.784 --> 00:32:54.929
and we see these declines
in relationship quality

808
00:32:54.929 --> 00:32:56.197
and mental health.

809
00:32:56.197 --> 00:32:58.999
And so, I had to look at this.

810
00:32:58.999 --> 00:33:01.735
And we do see these declines
in relationship quality

811
00:33:01.735 --> 00:33:04.029
in this sample as well.

812
00:33:04.029 --> 00:33:05.873
Now this is really important.

813
00:33:05.873 --> 00:33:07.941
Lesbian, gay, and heterosexual couples

814
00:33:07.941 --> 00:33:09.843
all experience these declines.

815
00:33:09.843 --> 00:33:14.010
There's no greater rate for
any one particular family type.

816
00:33:14.940 --> 00:33:16.584
So family structure does not

817
00:33:16.584 --> 00:33:19.686
predict declines in relationship quality.

818
00:33:19.686 --> 00:33:21.722
What does predict it?

819
00:33:21.722 --> 00:33:23.991
So parents who are more
depressed and anxious

820
00:33:23.991 --> 00:33:25.526
prior to the adoption

821
00:33:25.526 --> 00:33:27.461
are more likely to report
increases in conflict

822
00:33:27.461 --> 00:33:29.864
and decreased feelings of
love for their partner.

823
00:33:29.864 --> 00:33:31.298
Not a big surprise.

824
00:33:31.298 --> 00:33:33.800
Those who engage in maladaptive coping,

825
00:33:33.800 --> 00:33:36.770
so withdrawing or avoiding a
problem when confronted it,

826
00:33:36.770 --> 00:33:40.407
more likely to experience
poor relationship quality.

827
00:33:40.407 --> 00:33:41.975
And we found this interesting finding

828
00:33:41.975 --> 00:33:44.746
where parents reported
a lot of dissatisfaction

829
00:33:44.746 --> 00:33:46.346
with the adoption process,

830
00:33:46.346 --> 00:33:49.283
ultimately experienced declines in quality

831
00:33:49.283 --> 00:33:52.253
across the first three years
after they became parents.

832
00:33:52.253 --> 00:33:53.287
That's kind of interesting,

833
00:33:53.287 --> 00:33:54.689
and we think that stress

834
00:33:54.689 --> 00:33:56.723
is probably the intermediary there

835
00:33:56.723 --> 00:33:58.993
that if you have a really
bad adoption experience,

836
00:33:58.993 --> 00:34:00.561
that contributes to more stress,

837
00:34:00.561 --> 00:34:04.061
which in turn, threatens the relationship.

838
00:34:06.867 --> 00:34:08.969
Dissolution of relationships is rare.

839
00:34:08.969 --> 00:34:11.112
People are always asking,

840
00:34:11.112 --> 00:34:13.373
"So how many people break up?"

841
00:34:13.373 --> 00:34:14.708
So, are you ready?

842
00:34:14.708 --> 00:34:16.719
How many? Anyone wanna take a guess?

843
00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:20.052
What percentage of the sample breaks up?

844
00:34:22.183 --> 00:34:24.051
Five years after the adoption,

845
00:34:24.051 --> 00:34:25.854
what percentage?

846
00:34:25.854 --> 00:34:27.271
10? Someone said.

847
00:34:29.139 --> 00:34:30.758
Nobody wants to guess.

848
00:34:30.758 --> 00:34:31.859
(laughter)

849
00:34:31.859 --> 00:34:33.059
Five, 10, five, 10.

850
00:34:33.059 --> 00:34:34.795
Very good, right in the middle.

851
00:34:34.795 --> 00:34:36.496
Eight percent.

852
00:34:36.496 --> 00:34:39.475
So eight percent of the sample
dissolved the relationships

853
00:34:39.475 --> 00:34:41.902
as of five years post-adoptive placement.

854
00:34:41.902 --> 00:34:43.445
And what you'll see in this graph,

855
00:34:43.445 --> 00:34:45.272
is that lesbian couples
are the most likely

856
00:34:45.272 --> 00:34:46.673
to dissolve their relationships

857
00:34:46.673 --> 00:34:49.076
and gay male couples are the least likely

858
00:34:49.076 --> 00:34:52.079
to dissolve their relationships.

859
00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:53.648
So why might this be?

860
00:34:53.648 --> 00:34:54.781
So in our sample,

861
00:34:54.781 --> 00:34:59.152
lesbian couples are the most
likely to adopt older children,

862
00:34:59.152 --> 00:35:02.422
which has the potential
to place more stress

863
00:35:02.422 --> 00:35:03.391
on the relationship

864
00:35:03.391 --> 00:35:05.626
because older children bring with them

865
00:35:05.626 --> 00:35:07.427
often difficult life histories.

866
00:35:07.427 --> 00:35:09.563
An older age at adoption is often an index

867
00:35:09.563 --> 00:35:11.398
for a more difficult life history,

868
00:35:11.398 --> 00:35:12.865
history of abuse or neglect,

869
00:35:12.865 --> 00:35:15.610
multiple foster care placements,

870
00:35:15.610 --> 00:35:17.204
difficulties attaching.

871
00:35:17.204 --> 00:35:18.489
Lesbian couples also make

872
00:35:18.489 --> 00:35:20.073
the least amount of money in our sample

873
00:35:20.073 --> 00:35:23.277
and gay male couples make the most.

874
00:35:23.277 --> 00:35:24.212
Now.

875
00:35:24.212 --> 00:35:26.547
Just as interesting

876
00:35:26.547 --> 00:35:29.516
is the fact that this
compares to 15 to 18%

877
00:35:29.516 --> 00:35:32.253
in heterosexual biological
parent families.

878
00:35:32.253 --> 00:35:34.454
So they're actually half
as likely to have broken up

879
00:35:34.454 --> 00:35:38.825
compared to national data on
biological parent families.

880
00:35:38.825 --> 00:35:41.161
Now why might that be?

881
00:35:41.161 --> 00:35:43.030
One very significant factor

882
00:35:43.030 --> 00:35:45.233
is that all these children
were very planned.

883
00:35:45.233 --> 00:35:48.203
And half of the children of
biological parent families

884
00:35:48.203 --> 00:35:49.637
are unplanned.

885
00:35:49.637 --> 00:35:51.471
So, we know that unplanned pregnancies

886
00:35:51.471 --> 00:35:53.874
are a risk factor for
relationship dissolution,

887
00:35:53.874 --> 00:35:55.475
this is obviously a factor.

888
00:35:55.475 --> 00:35:57.978
Also, they have higher
levels of education,

889
00:35:57.978 --> 00:35:59.712
and are fairly affluent

890
00:35:59.712 --> 00:36:01.815
and obviously those are protective factors

891
00:36:01.815 --> 00:36:05.252
when it comes to relationship quality.

892
00:36:05.252 --> 00:36:06.752
Okay.

893
00:36:08.355 --> 00:36:10.057
Predictors of dissolution.

894
00:36:10.057 --> 00:36:12.226
When we actually look who is most likely

895
00:36:12.226 --> 00:36:14.394
to dissolve their relationship,

896
00:36:14.394 --> 00:36:16.363
this is what we find:

897
00:36:16.363 --> 00:36:19.466
Those people who reported
feeling less prepared

898
00:36:19.466 --> 00:36:23.337
for the adoption three months
after they were placed.

899
00:36:23.337 --> 00:36:25.173
So we asked them, "How
prepared did you feel?"

900
00:36:25.173 --> 00:36:27.307
And those who said, "Not very prepared,"

901
00:36:27.307 --> 00:36:29.143
were the most likely to break up.

902
00:36:29.143 --> 00:36:31.646
So, it's difficult to ascertain

903
00:36:31.646 --> 00:36:33.354
exactly what that's about.

904
00:36:33.354 --> 00:36:36.116
Did the adoption sort of
happen seemingly suddenly?

905
00:36:36.116 --> 00:36:38.117
Or did they just not know
what to do with the child

906
00:36:38.117 --> 00:36:40.053
once they were placed with it?

907
00:36:40.053 --> 00:36:43.056
And also adopting an
older or non-infant child,

908
00:36:43.056 --> 00:36:45.659
again for the reasons that I just spoke of

909
00:36:45.659 --> 00:36:48.828
can be additionally stressful.

910
00:36:48.828 --> 00:36:49.996
So regarding mental health,

911
00:36:49.996 --> 00:36:51.799
again we see these
declines in mental health

912
00:36:51.799 --> 00:36:53.667
across the entire sample.

913
00:36:53.667 --> 00:36:57.372
There were no differences by
parents' sexual orientation.

914
00:36:57.372 --> 00:36:58.671
In terms of predictors,

915
00:36:58.671 --> 00:37:02.683
parents who pre-adoptions
reported lower levels

916
00:37:02.683 --> 00:37:05.879
of social support, lower levels of support

917
00:37:05.879 --> 00:37:08.448
from friends, family, co-workers,

918
00:37:08.448 --> 00:37:09.850
and among lesbian and gay participants,

919
00:37:09.850 --> 00:37:11.351
those who perceived their neighborhoods

920
00:37:11.351 --> 00:37:12.720
as less gay affirming,

921
00:37:12.720 --> 00:37:15.222
all experienced declines in mental health.

922
00:37:15.222 --> 00:37:16.923
And the next finding I'm gonna say

923
00:37:16.923 --> 00:37:20.628
is one that has been used
in a lot amicus briefs

924
00:37:20.628 --> 00:37:24.211
and policy briefs to
argue for the effects,

925
00:37:25.198 --> 00:37:27.367
to argue about the negative effects

926
00:37:27.367 --> 00:37:30.437
of certain social policies
on LGBT parent families.

927
00:37:30.437 --> 00:37:32.406
So we found that among
lesbian and gay parents,

928
00:37:32.406 --> 00:37:35.375
those who reported high levels
of internalized homophobia,

929
00:37:35.375 --> 00:37:38.245
who felt the least good
about their sexual identity,

930
00:37:38.245 --> 00:37:40.981
experienced the worst
declines in mental health.

931
00:37:40.981 --> 00:37:43.718
But, this effect was
pronounced among those

932
00:37:43.718 --> 00:37:47.688
living in states with the
most anti-gay climates.

933
00:37:47.688 --> 00:37:49.056
So basically,

934
00:37:49.056 --> 00:37:51.658
if you don't feel good
about your sexuality

935
00:37:51.658 --> 00:37:54.361
and you live in a state that
denigrates your sexuality

936
00:37:54.361 --> 00:37:56.763
by virtue of its anti-gay adoption laws,

937
00:37:56.763 --> 00:38:00.233
you experience plummeting mental health,

938
00:38:00.233 --> 00:38:03.403
which clearly, the laws trickle down

939
00:38:03.403 --> 00:38:04.938
into community attitudes,

940
00:38:04.938 --> 00:38:06.740
which is how we understand that.

941
00:38:06.740 --> 00:38:08.275
So this is a very powerful finding

942
00:38:08.275 --> 00:38:11.108
and it can be used to really argue

943
00:38:12.261 --> 00:38:16.428
for more affirming policies
for LGBT parent families.

944
00:38:17.418 --> 00:38:19.988
In terms of the division of labor,

945
00:38:19.988 --> 00:38:21.321
we found that same-sex couples

946
00:38:21.321 --> 00:38:24.258
did indeed share more equally
across the transition.

947
00:38:24.258 --> 00:38:25.426
So they shared childcare.

948
00:38:25.426 --> 00:38:26.427
They shared housework

949
00:38:26.427 --> 00:38:27.727
and they shared paid work

950
00:38:27.727 --> 00:38:30.363
more equally than heterosexual couples.

951
00:38:30.363 --> 00:38:32.666
Now what's interesting is
that in the qualitative data,

952
00:38:32.666 --> 00:38:33.934
we found that gay men,

953
00:38:33.934 --> 00:38:35.836
who actually reported
the greatest commitment

954
00:38:35.836 --> 00:38:37.670
to their careers pre-parenthood

955
00:38:37.670 --> 00:38:42.009
frequently said that they really
de-emphasized their careers

956
00:38:42.009 --> 00:38:44.077
and were really putting their jobs

957
00:38:44.077 --> 00:38:45.511
as a backseat to parenthood

958
00:38:45.511 --> 00:38:47.547
when we talked to them post-parenthood.

959
00:38:47.547 --> 00:38:48.949
Heterosexual men, on the other hand,

960
00:38:48.949 --> 00:38:51.152
often increased their commitment to work.

961
00:38:51.152 --> 00:38:52.886
So they said that they were more committed

962
00:38:52.886 --> 00:38:55.189
to providing for their family.

963
00:38:55.189 --> 00:38:57.824
And of course this speaks
to the differing meanings

964
00:38:57.824 --> 00:38:59.760
of parental roles,

965
00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:01.728
different meanings about masculinity

966
00:39:01.728 --> 00:39:05.145
within gay male and heterosexual context.

967
00:39:07.534 --> 00:39:09.770
So everybody, of course, wants to know,

968
00:39:09.770 --> 00:39:11.239
"What about the kids?" Right?

969
00:39:11.239 --> 00:39:13.974
Concerns about the rights
of lesbian and gay parents

970
00:39:13.974 --> 00:39:16.910
to become parents often
center on their children.

971
00:39:16.910 --> 00:39:18.177
How will they turn out?

972
00:39:18.177 --> 00:39:19.346
Will they be teased?

973
00:39:19.346 --> 00:39:23.429
Will they show disturbances
in adjustment, right?

974
00:39:24.418 --> 00:39:26.653
So as we've been able
to follow our sample,

975
00:39:26.653 --> 00:39:28.989
we've been able to look
at children's outcomes

976
00:39:28.989 --> 00:39:31.825
in these particular families.

977
00:39:31.825 --> 00:39:34.728
And we found that there's
no cause for alarm.

978
00:39:34.728 --> 00:39:37.664
So, children's adjustment,
not surprisingly to me,

979
00:39:37.664 --> 00:39:39.433
didn't really differ by family type.

980
00:39:39.433 --> 00:39:44.271
But what did differ, or what
did predict child functioning,

981
00:39:44.271 --> 00:39:45.906
was very interesting.

982
00:39:45.906 --> 00:39:47.540
So, what predicted whether children

983
00:39:47.540 --> 00:39:49.176
would have more difficulties?

984
00:39:49.176 --> 00:39:51.544
Parents who were depressed

985
00:39:51.544 --> 00:39:53.113
had kids with more difficulties.

986
00:39:53.113 --> 00:39:54.681
That doesn't surprise anyone I'm sure.

987
00:39:54.681 --> 00:39:56.083
Parents who are more depressed,

988
00:39:56.083 --> 00:39:58.519
depression interferes with
your ability to parent

989
00:39:58.519 --> 00:40:00.020
and interferes with parental warmth,

990
00:40:00.020 --> 00:40:01.580
which in turn is more likely to lead

991
00:40:01.580 --> 00:40:04.349
to behavioral and emotional
problems in children.

992
00:40:04.349 --> 00:40:06.860
Conflict between parents.

993
00:40:06.860 --> 00:40:08.162
When parents are fighting,

994
00:40:08.162 --> 00:40:09.221
this leads children to either

995
00:40:09.221 --> 00:40:11.966
internalize or externalize
their difficulties.

996
00:40:11.966 --> 00:40:13.700
And an older age at adoption.

997
00:40:13.700 --> 00:40:16.303
So again, children who are
adopted at an older age

998
00:40:16.303 --> 00:40:18.705
were more likely to have history of abuse,

999
00:40:18.705 --> 00:40:20.974
neglect, prenatal drug exposure,

1000
00:40:20.974 --> 00:40:22.643
all things that could
increase the likelihood

1001
00:40:22.643 --> 00:40:25.643
of emotional or behavioral problems.

1002
00:40:29.023 --> 00:40:30.750
So.

1003
00:40:30.750 --> 00:40:33.487
Concerns have also centered
on the gender development

1004
00:40:33.487 --> 00:40:35.389
of children in these families.

1005
00:40:35.389 --> 00:40:36.723
So the concern being

1006
00:40:36.723 --> 00:40:39.258
that kids of same-sex
parents can't possibly show

1007
00:40:39.258 --> 00:40:41.695
normal gender identity or
normal gender development,

1008
00:40:41.695 --> 00:40:44.264
particularly those poor
boys with lesbian moms,

1009
00:40:44.264 --> 00:40:47.333
who can't possibly know what
it's like to be a real boy

1010
00:40:47.333 --> 00:40:49.369
and those poor girls with two dads

1011
00:40:49.369 --> 00:40:52.238
who won't possibly be exposed
to any other female figures.

1012
00:40:52.238 --> 00:40:54.007
They won't know how to be a girl.

1013
00:40:54.007 --> 00:40:56.150
So, you can see what I think about that.

1014
00:40:56.150 --> 00:40:59.385
So, generally, what we find
is kind of interesting.

1015
00:40:59.385 --> 00:41:01.883
We do find that children
with lesbian and gay parents

1016
00:41:01.883 --> 00:41:04.584
do show less stereotyped play.

1017
00:41:04.584 --> 00:41:06.854
So they're less gender stereotyped,

1018
00:41:06.854 --> 00:41:08.722
they're more gender expansive.

1019
00:41:08.722 --> 00:41:11.357
They're more likely to
play with a range of toys.

1020
00:41:11.357 --> 00:41:13.994
So boys are not just
likely to play with trucks,

1021
00:41:13.994 --> 00:41:16.630
they're more open to playing
with dolls, for example.

1022
00:41:16.630 --> 00:41:20.367
But, this is well within normal limits,

1023
00:41:20.367 --> 00:41:22.803
and it's really important to emphasize

1024
00:41:22.803 --> 00:41:26.507
that scholars of development and education

1025
00:41:26.507 --> 00:41:29.217
really emphasize that less rigid play

1026
00:41:29.217 --> 00:41:32.378
is really beneficial to
learning and development.

1027
00:41:32.378 --> 00:41:34.280
It's actually not so good for you

1028
00:41:34.280 --> 00:41:36.182
to only be willing to play

1029
00:41:36.182 --> 00:41:38.818
with toys that are
stereotyped for your gender,

1030
00:41:38.818 --> 00:41:40.853
to sort of disregard any toys

1031
00:41:40.853 --> 00:41:42.788
that are not stereotyped for your gender.

1032
00:41:42.788 --> 00:41:44.257
So this could really be looked at

1033
00:41:44.257 --> 00:41:47.257
as actually a very positive finding.

1034
00:41:48.328 --> 00:41:49.995
So why this pattern?

1035
00:41:52.200 --> 00:41:54.902
Well, it's clearly not
due to any real absence

1036
00:41:54.902 --> 00:41:58.371
of same gender role
models for these children.

1037
00:41:58.371 --> 00:42:01.042
So we asked parents
about the kinds of adults

1038
00:42:01.042 --> 00:42:04.010
that are involved in
their children's lives,

1039
00:42:04.010 --> 00:42:07.446
and trust me, nobody's
growing up in a gender vacuum.

1040
00:42:07.446 --> 00:42:08.681
They talk about birth parents,

1041
00:42:08.681 --> 00:42:11.785
aunts, uncles,
grandparents, close friends,

1042
00:42:11.785 --> 00:42:13.529
teachers,

1043
00:42:13.529 --> 00:42:15.856
lots and lots of adults who have a role

1044
00:42:15.856 --> 00:42:18.858
in their children's development.

1045
00:42:18.858 --> 00:42:21.428
So it's possible that
lesbian and gay parents

1046
00:42:21.428 --> 00:42:24.798
may provide more opportunities
for a broader range

1047
00:42:24.798 --> 00:42:27.233
of activities, right?

1048
00:42:27.233 --> 00:42:29.268
So, a lesbian mother may be more likely

1049
00:42:29.268 --> 00:42:31.739
than a heterosexual
mother to offer her son

1050
00:42:31.739 --> 00:42:33.973
the opportunity to participate

1051
00:42:33.973 --> 00:42:36.477
in a hip-hop class, for example.

1052
00:42:36.477 --> 00:42:38.579
It's also possible that
lesbian and gay parents

1053
00:42:38.579 --> 00:42:41.381
respond less negatively when their child

1054
00:42:41.381 --> 00:42:43.851
engages in cross-gender play.

1055
00:42:43.851 --> 00:42:46.586
So, they respond enthusiastically

1056
00:42:46.586 --> 00:42:49.789
whether their son is playing with a truck

1057
00:42:49.789 --> 00:42:51.692
or a tea set, right?

1058
00:42:51.692 --> 00:42:54.494
As opposed to responding
clearly more enthusiastically

1059
00:42:54.494 --> 00:42:57.464
when their son is playing with a truck,

1060
00:42:57.464 --> 00:43:00.567
which is sort of
differential reinforcement.

1061
00:43:00.567 --> 00:43:04.604
So again, less rigid play can
really be viewed as adaptive.

1062
00:43:04.604 --> 00:43:06.974
So the last domain I'm gonna talk about

1063
00:43:06.974 --> 00:43:09.309
before I get into some
interesting applications

1064
00:43:09.309 --> 00:43:11.545
of this work and how it's been used

1065
00:43:11.545 --> 00:43:13.447
both positively and negatively,

1066
00:43:13.447 --> 00:43:15.615
are parent school experiences.

1067
00:43:15.615 --> 00:43:18.751
So we found that most of
the parents in this study

1068
00:43:18.751 --> 00:43:21.121
really had good experiences with schools

1069
00:43:21.121 --> 00:43:23.590
as of the time that their
children were in kindergarten.

1070
00:43:23.590 --> 00:43:26.393
So they felt that schools
were affirming of them.

1071
00:43:26.393 --> 00:43:28.428
They typically attributed
this to where they lived,

1072
00:43:28.428 --> 00:43:30.663
progressive geographic area,

1073
00:43:30.663 --> 00:43:33.033
or the type of school that
their children attended,

1074
00:43:33.033 --> 00:43:35.768
i.e. a private school in many cases.

1075
00:43:35.768 --> 00:43:37.771
So the third of parents
who described challenges

1076
00:43:37.771 --> 00:43:39.647
with their children's school

1077
00:43:39.647 --> 00:43:41.908
described them in a couple of domains.

1078
00:43:41.908 --> 00:43:43.843
So one was a teacher lack of experience

1079
00:43:43.843 --> 00:43:45.512
with lesbian or gay parents,

1080
00:43:45.512 --> 00:43:46.546
so they said they were often

1081
00:43:46.546 --> 00:43:48.514
the first lesbian or gay
parents at that kid's school

1082
00:43:48.514 --> 00:43:50.984
and they had to do a lot of education.

1083
00:43:50.984 --> 00:43:52.887
Now very commonly they talked about

1084
00:43:52.887 --> 00:43:54.287
curriculum marginalization

1085
00:43:54.287 --> 00:43:56.423
of lesbian and gay parent families.

1086
00:43:56.423 --> 00:43:58.658
So curricula was described as explicitly

1087
00:43:58.658 --> 00:44:00.560
or implicitly heterosexist,

1088
00:44:00.560 --> 00:44:03.230
for example, only heterosexual
two-parent families

1089
00:44:03.230 --> 00:44:05.098
were depicted in stories

1090
00:44:05.098 --> 00:44:08.117
or used as examples in the classroom.

1091
00:44:08.117 --> 00:44:11.104
Or, in some cases, very
explicit heterosexist

1092
00:44:11.104 --> 00:44:12.505
examples were given.

1093
00:44:12.505 --> 00:44:15.743
So, a child was only
allowed to make one candle

1094
00:44:15.743 --> 00:44:18.678
for Mother's Day, for example.

1095
00:44:18.678 --> 00:44:22.181
So, in response to this
curricular benign neglect,

1096
00:44:22.181 --> 00:44:23.849
when it came to diverse families,

1097
00:44:23.849 --> 00:44:25.952
some parents really
took it upon themselves

1098
00:44:25.952 --> 00:44:29.489
to bring in books, reading materials,

1099
00:44:29.489 --> 00:44:32.626
lesson plans, to help teachers

1100
00:44:32.626 --> 00:44:35.262
to teach more holistically

1101
00:44:35.262 --> 00:44:36.996
about diverse families.

1102
00:44:36.996 --> 00:44:38.297
And some didn't.

1103
00:44:38.297 --> 00:44:41.868
Some felt really afraid of
potentially alienating teachers

1104
00:44:41.868 --> 00:44:45.162
and causing them to further
marginalize their families.

1105
00:44:45.162 --> 00:44:47.273
Now those that did said that they received

1106
00:44:47.273 --> 00:44:49.509
positive to neutral responses.

1107
00:44:49.509 --> 00:44:53.246
Here was a woman who described
a more neutral response.

1108
00:44:53.246 --> 00:44:54.747
She said that her children's school,

1109
00:44:54.747 --> 00:44:57.651
"eventually bought the
books that we recommended,

1110
00:44:57.651 --> 00:44:59.886
"but those books should
have already been there.

1111
00:44:59.886 --> 00:45:02.288
"It is one thing for
a school to roll along

1112
00:45:02.288 --> 00:45:04.792
"and then once there's gay
people who they know about

1113
00:45:04.792 --> 00:45:06.526
"they're willing to accommodate them

1114
00:45:06.526 --> 00:45:09.697
"but it is quite another to
be welcoming ahead of time.

1115
00:45:09.697 --> 00:45:11.331
"I think that is a problem.

1116
00:45:11.331 --> 00:45:13.766
"Our kids are not the
only kids at that school

1117
00:45:13.766 --> 00:45:17.933
"who have queer people in
their lives who they love."

1118
00:45:21.562 --> 00:45:22.943
And then other parents.

1119
00:45:22.943 --> 00:45:26.012
For some parents, other
parents were the problem.

1120
00:45:26.012 --> 00:45:30.984
They felt ignored, marginalized,
disrespected, ignored.

1121
00:45:30.984 --> 00:45:34.420
This was particularly the
case with our lesbian moms

1122
00:45:34.420 --> 00:45:36.389
who described themselves as having

1123
00:45:36.389 --> 00:45:38.424
more nontraditional gender presentations.

1124
00:45:38.424 --> 00:45:39.927
Those who said that they were more butch

1125
00:45:39.927 --> 00:45:41.695
or masculine presenting,

1126
00:45:41.695 --> 00:45:44.331
that they felt out of place, ignored.

1127
00:45:44.331 --> 00:45:45.832
Here's a couple of quotes.

1128
00:45:45.832 --> 00:45:48.169
One woman said, "It is not my orientation,

1129
00:45:48.169 --> 00:45:50.636
"but it is my gender
expression that's the problem

1130
00:45:50.636 --> 00:45:52.004
"that's causing issues.

1131
00:45:52.004 --> 00:45:54.074
"Parents are just less
likely to interact with me

1132
00:45:54.074 --> 00:45:57.510
"than my wife, who's
more gender conforming."

1133
00:45:57.510 --> 00:46:00.104
Another woman said, "I
felt really left out.

1134
00:46:00.104 --> 00:46:02.315
"Rachel feels welcomed by parents.

1135
00:46:02.315 --> 00:46:04.184
"They've all friended her on Facebook.

1136
00:46:04.184 --> 00:46:05.452
"I don't have any of that.

1137
00:46:05.452 --> 00:46:07.553
"Sometimes when I'm there
to drop off or pick up,

1138
00:46:07.553 --> 00:46:09.055
"they hardly talk to me.

1139
00:46:09.055 --> 00:46:10.389
"They know that we're together,

1140
00:46:10.389 --> 00:46:11.908
"but I think they're uncomfortable

1141
00:46:11.908 --> 00:46:16.075
"with the fact that I'm not
like a traditional female."

1142
00:46:21.791 --> 00:46:23.036
So.

1143
00:46:23.036 --> 00:46:25.004
Despite the fact that
lesbian and gay parents

1144
00:46:25.004 --> 00:46:29.876
were more likely to perceive
other parents as unwelcoming,

1145
00:46:29.876 --> 00:46:32.355
they demonstrated really
high levels of involvement

1146
00:46:32.355 --> 00:46:33.747
in their children's schools.

1147
00:46:33.747 --> 00:46:35.148
So they were involved in the PTA,

1148
00:46:35.148 --> 00:46:37.358
they were members of
the Diversity Committee,

1149
00:46:37.358 --> 00:46:39.619
they attended school
events and activities,

1150
00:46:39.619 --> 00:46:42.021
and in fact, lesbian mothers, gay fathers,

1151
00:46:42.021 --> 00:46:44.257
and heterosexual mothers demonstrated

1152
00:46:44.257 --> 00:46:47.627
almost identical levels of
self-reported parent involvement.

1153
00:46:47.627 --> 00:46:51.798
Heterosexual fathers,
sadly, were far below them.

1154
00:46:51.798 --> 00:46:54.667
So, lesbian and gay
parents often emphasized

1155
00:46:54.667 --> 00:46:56.370
involvement as a given.

1156
00:46:56.370 --> 00:46:58.671
They said, "We have to be involved.

1157
00:46:58.671 --> 00:47:00.307
"We have to go above and beyond."

1158
00:47:00.307 --> 00:47:03.484
One gay dad said, "We talk
with the teachers every day,

1159
00:47:03.484 --> 00:47:05.193
"so they we're involved.

1160
00:47:05.193 --> 00:47:07.246
"We will know what's going on."

1161
00:47:07.246 --> 00:47:08.548
Another gay dad said,

1162
00:47:08.548 --> 00:47:10.683
"We realized we're gonna
have to push ourselves,

1163
00:47:10.683 --> 00:47:13.120
"even though our
personality is to hold back.

1164
00:47:13.120 --> 00:47:15.087
"At the open house, we
chose to sit in front

1165
00:47:15.087 --> 00:47:16.289
"and not the back.

1166
00:47:16.289 --> 00:47:17.523
"That was a conscious decision.

1167
00:47:17.523 --> 00:47:19.458
"We can't afford to sit in back.

1168
00:47:19.458 --> 00:47:21.160
"We're gonna have to do a little more,

1169
00:47:21.160 --> 00:47:24.564
"push a little more, but
we're not gonna be obnoxious."

1170
00:47:24.564 --> 00:47:26.700
So they were generally
aware of the need to work

1171
00:47:26.700 --> 00:47:28.034
harder than other families

1172
00:47:28.034 --> 00:47:29.268
to make sure that their families

1173
00:47:29.268 --> 00:47:32.506
weren't rendered
invisible or marginalized.

1174
00:47:32.506 --> 00:47:35.642
Now, this is an interesting
and unexpected finding,

1175
00:47:35.642 --> 00:47:38.059
that gay male parents
were particularly likely

1176
00:47:38.059 --> 00:47:41.163
to be highly involved
in leadership positions

1177
00:47:41.163 --> 00:47:42.448
in their children's schools.

1178
00:47:42.448 --> 00:47:44.818
My graduate students and I
have had lots of conversations

1179
00:47:44.818 --> 00:47:47.260
about why this might be.

1180
00:47:47.260 --> 00:47:49.523
It's kind of an interesting finding.

1181
00:47:49.523 --> 00:47:53.760
But they also felt
isolated and marginalized

1182
00:47:53.760 --> 00:47:57.230
in these positions because who
were they volunteering with

1183
00:47:57.230 --> 00:47:58.632
or running committees with?

1184
00:47:58.632 --> 00:48:01.101
They were running committees
with heterosexual moms

1185
00:48:01.101 --> 00:48:03.603
who are different from them in
both their sexual orientation

1186
00:48:03.603 --> 00:48:05.005
and their gender.

1187
00:48:05.005 --> 00:48:07.306
So, they typically felt
like this one man said

1188
00:48:07.306 --> 00:48:08.875
really an anomaly.

1189
00:48:08.875 --> 00:48:10.844
Another man said, "I'm like an ostrich,

1190
00:48:10.844 --> 00:48:12.312
"I just don't fit in.

1191
00:48:12.312 --> 00:48:15.062
"They look at me like I'm crazy."

1192
00:48:16.449 --> 00:48:17.783
Okay.

1193
00:48:17.783 --> 00:48:20.353
So, here are just a couple of other topics

1194
00:48:20.353 --> 00:48:22.222
we've explored in our research.

1195
00:48:22.222 --> 00:48:23.322
I'm just gonna put them up.

1196
00:48:23.322 --> 00:48:25.492
We've done papers on all of them,

1197
00:48:25.492 --> 00:48:27.794
if you're interested I'll put
up the website at the end.

1198
00:48:27.794 --> 00:48:30.730
So parents' preferences related
to child gender, race, age.

1199
00:48:30.730 --> 00:48:34.897
Reasons for choosing one type
of adoption versus another.

1200
00:48:50.150 --> 00:48:51.685
So I'm gonna talk about some applications

1201
00:48:51.685 --> 00:48:53.435
quickly of this work.

1202
00:49:00.936 --> 00:49:03.597
Expert testimony has
drawn on this research

1203
00:49:03.597 --> 00:49:05.397
in various cases.

1204
00:49:05.397 --> 00:49:07.600
I've also worked with organizations

1205
00:49:07.600 --> 00:49:10.436
like the Human Rights Campaign
to develop a rating system

1206
00:49:10.436 --> 00:49:13.472
that can be used by
agencies to kind of evaluate

1207
00:49:13.472 --> 00:49:16.176
how gay affirming they are.

1208
00:49:16.176 --> 00:49:19.146
And they can sort of do it again and again

1209
00:49:19.146 --> 00:49:20.847
to get a better score,

1210
00:49:20.847 --> 00:49:22.515
which is a motivator.

1211
00:49:22.515 --> 00:49:25.050
I've talked with schools
including psychologists

1212
00:49:25.050 --> 00:49:27.553
and principals about ways to make

1213
00:49:27.553 --> 00:49:30.557
their schools more affirming.

1214
00:49:30.557 --> 00:49:32.725
Here's just a couple of tips.

1215
00:49:32.725 --> 00:49:34.427
It's good for schools to know

1216
00:49:34.427 --> 00:49:36.496
what a child calls each parent.

1217
00:49:36.496 --> 00:49:38.230
So "momma and mommy" for example

1218
00:49:38.230 --> 00:49:40.934
and not to use those terms interchangeably

1219
00:49:40.934 --> 00:49:44.537
or call both parents by the same name.

1220
00:49:44.537 --> 00:49:46.372
Not to use heteronormative language,

1221
00:49:46.372 --> 00:49:48.675
so using terms like
"parents," for example,

1222
00:49:48.675 --> 00:49:51.376
as opposed to "mothers and fathers."

1223
00:49:51.376 --> 00:49:55.080
And using different examples
of different kinds of families

1224
00:49:55.080 --> 00:49:56.048
in the classroom.

1225
00:49:56.048 --> 00:49:59.218
Just even casually to illustrate
a point can go a long way

1226
00:49:59.218 --> 00:50:03.385
in just deconstructing the
sort of heterosexual as normal.

1227
00:50:05.106 --> 00:50:07.460
And I've also spoken to
therapists, social workers,

1228
00:50:07.460 --> 00:50:10.397
psychologists, and I'm always
looking for creative ways

1229
00:50:10.397 --> 00:50:14.099
of translating this
research into practice.

1230
00:50:14.099 --> 00:50:17.670
So the response to my work
has not always been positive.

1231
00:50:17.670 --> 00:50:21.074
There are some delightful blogs out there

1232
00:50:21.074 --> 00:50:23.710
that are devoted to my work. (laughter)

1233
00:50:23.710 --> 00:50:25.646
This is one of my favorites.

1234
00:50:25.646 --> 00:50:28.114
And this one dubbed me a
homosexual propagandist

1235
00:50:28.114 --> 00:50:30.917
which is my absolute favorite title yet.

1236
00:50:30.917 --> 00:50:34.853
I'm gonna have a badge made with that.

1237
00:50:34.853 --> 00:50:39.158
Sometimes my findings have been
misrepresented and misused.

1238
00:50:39.158 --> 00:50:40.325
This one says:

1239
00:50:54.107 --> 00:50:55.909
There's all kinds of
religious organizations

1240
00:50:55.909 --> 00:50:57.343
that have read my work.

1241
00:50:57.343 --> 00:50:59.713
Some anti-gay activists
have interpreted my findings

1242
00:50:59.713 --> 00:51:01.849
related to the gender
development of children,

1243
00:51:01.849 --> 00:51:04.984
which I mentioned as evidence of pathology

1244
00:51:04.984 --> 00:51:09.722
and a reason to say, "Yes, kids
need a mother and a father."

1245
00:51:09.722 --> 00:51:11.858
So, I didn't admit anything,

1246
00:51:11.858 --> 00:51:15.191
but this is the language that they used.

1247
00:51:20.066 --> 00:51:23.316
I didn't administer a femininity scale.

1248
00:51:29.594 --> 00:51:33.177
So sometimes I've been
attacked personally.

1249
00:51:34.547 --> 00:51:37.984
This is, by the way, an attack
on another misrepresentation

1250
00:51:37.984 --> 00:51:39.285
of my work.

1251
00:51:39.285 --> 00:51:41.287
I actually never said
anywhere that gay parents

1252
00:51:41.287 --> 00:51:42.789
were the best parents.

1253
00:51:42.789 --> 00:51:46.191
But a journalist used that catchy title

1254
00:51:46.191 --> 00:51:48.729
in an article in which I was quoted

1255
00:51:48.729 --> 00:51:52.081
and so many, many people have said,

1256
00:51:52.081 --> 00:51:54.400
"Goldberg thinks that gay
parents are the best parents."

1257
00:51:54.400 --> 00:51:55.901
And of course, if you know
anything about my work,

1258
00:51:55.901 --> 00:51:58.037
I would never say that any type of parent

1259
00:51:58.037 --> 00:51:59.439
is better than any other type of parent,

1260
00:51:59.439 --> 00:52:00.505
that's the whole point of my work,

1261
00:52:00.505 --> 00:52:03.276
is to say that sexual
orientation is not relevant.

1262
00:52:03.276 --> 00:52:04.526
So.

1263
00:52:06.678 --> 00:52:07.947
So I wanna thank my funders.

1264
00:52:07.947 --> 00:52:10.883
I've been incredibly fortunate
to have funding from many

1265
00:52:10.883 --> 00:52:12.685
many, many different sources,

1266
00:52:12.685 --> 00:52:14.321
both federal and non-federal.

1267
00:52:14.321 --> 00:52:16.155
And I say this particularly

1268
00:52:16.155 --> 00:52:17.990
for graduate students in the audience

1269
00:52:17.990 --> 00:52:18.958
who might be thinking,

1270
00:52:18.958 --> 00:52:20.927
"How the hell do you
get this work funded?"

1271
00:52:20.927 --> 00:52:22.495
When I started this work,

1272
00:52:22.495 --> 00:52:26.832
I was kindly told by a faculty
member at U Mass Amherst,

1273
00:52:26.832 --> 00:52:28.634
who will remain nameless,

1274
00:52:28.634 --> 00:52:30.570
that I was a very bright student

1275
00:52:30.570 --> 00:52:32.338
and that I should really
pick a better topic

1276
00:52:32.338 --> 00:52:33.740
because I would never get funding,

1277
00:52:33.740 --> 00:52:35.774
and I'd probably never find a job.

1278
00:52:35.774 --> 00:52:38.778
So, I always think about that
particular faculty member

1279
00:52:38.778 --> 00:52:42.515
because I was successful
in getting funding

1280
00:52:42.515 --> 00:52:45.585
and so I think there really
is a lot of room out there

1281
00:52:45.585 --> 00:52:49.255
for work on marginalized
individuals and sexualities

1282
00:52:49.255 --> 00:52:51.558
and gender identities
and it really just takes

1283
00:52:51.558 --> 00:52:53.891
commitment and perseverance.

1284
00:52:54.761 --> 00:52:58.032
I would be nowhere without
my wonderful co-authors,

1285
00:52:58.032 --> 00:53:00.900
many of whom are listed here,

1286
00:53:00.900 --> 00:53:02.035
and my doctoral students,

1287
00:53:02.035 --> 00:53:04.404
who've conducted many,
many of the interviews

1288
00:53:04.404 --> 00:53:06.106
with these couples over the years

1289
00:53:06.106 --> 00:53:10.343
and they're amazing and
I'm very grateful to them.

1290
00:53:10.343 --> 00:53:12.211
And this is my website.

1291
00:53:12.211 --> 00:53:15.014
And I have divided my
publications into categories,

1292
00:53:15.014 --> 00:53:17.283
so you can actually go
right there and search

1293
00:53:17.283 --> 00:53:21.035
and download them in PDF
form, if you're interested.

1294
00:53:21.035 --> 00:53:23.723
I also have some books.

1295
00:53:23.723 --> 00:53:27.627
And then before I get to my last slide,

1296
00:53:27.627 --> 00:53:31.794
I just wanna quietly dedicate
this talk to KJ Morris,

1297
00:53:32.951 --> 00:53:35.868
who was a member of this community.

1298
00:53:44.210 --> 00:53:47.613
I did save that to the end
so I wouldn't break up.

1299
00:53:47.613 --> 00:53:50.016
And then this is my cat. (laughter)

1300
00:53:50.016 --> 00:53:51.450
Ending on a more positive note.

1301
00:53:51.450 --> 00:53:53.619
So thank you very much.

1302
00:53:53.619 --> 00:53:55.869
(applause)

1303
00:54:13.773 --> 00:54:16.976
So I think, Hannah, should
I facilitate questions?

1304
00:54:16.976 --> 00:54:21.323
Okay, I guess we have
time for some questions.

1305
00:54:21.323 --> 00:54:22.656
Yeah.

1306
00:54:31.491 --> 00:54:33.324
Oh, no, that broke up.

1307
00:54:34.227 --> 00:54:36.062
Okay, no that's an important difference.

1308
00:54:36.062 --> 00:54:38.312
(laughter)

1309
00:54:50.577 --> 00:54:52.512
Right, so I personally haven't,

1310
00:54:52.512 --> 00:54:54.180
but there is literature out there

1311
00:54:54.180 --> 00:54:56.982
on sort of trajectories of
relationship quality over time

1312
00:54:56.982 --> 00:54:59.419
comparing lesbian, gay,
and heterosexual couples.

1313
00:54:59.419 --> 00:55:02.389
That work is really hard,
it's hard to compare.

1314
00:55:02.389 --> 00:55:06.556
It's hard to compare anything
from 20 years ago to today.

1315
00:55:08.718 --> 00:55:11.163
Those studies that do
compare heterosexual couples

1316
00:55:11.163 --> 00:55:14.134
to lesbian couples to gay male couples,

1317
00:55:14.134 --> 00:55:16.670
they're problematic because
heterosexual couples

1318
00:55:16.670 --> 00:55:19.471
could get married and
lesbian/gay couples couldn't.

1319
00:55:19.471 --> 00:55:22.175
So even comparing, like these couples

1320
00:55:22.175 --> 00:55:25.745
are of varying relationship durations.

1321
00:55:25.745 --> 00:55:27.213
Does that make sense?

1322
00:55:27.213 --> 00:55:28.647
And they have kids.

1323
00:55:28.647 --> 00:55:30.916
So, I've never looked at like

1324
00:55:30.916 --> 00:55:33.921
the couples compared to a sample...

1325
00:55:33.921 --> 00:55:36.288
Like, who would be the comparison group?

1326
00:55:36.288 --> 00:55:38.058
Couples that have been
together for how long

1327
00:55:38.058 --> 00:55:38.891
without children?

1328
00:55:38.891 --> 00:55:40.059
'Cause these couples have been together

1329
00:55:40.059 --> 00:55:41.161
for varying lengths of time.

1330
00:55:41.161 --> 00:55:42.428
Do you see my point?

1331
00:55:42.428 --> 00:55:45.678
It's like comparing apples and oranges.

1332
00:55:47.934 --> 00:55:50.202
I think generally speaking,

1333
00:55:50.202 --> 00:55:54.373
gay male couples without
children breakup more frequently.

1334
00:55:54.373 --> 00:55:55.541
That's safe to say.

1335
00:55:55.541 --> 00:55:57.977
And definitely in our sample,

1336
00:55:57.977 --> 00:56:00.012
we have gay men who say,

1337
00:56:00.012 --> 00:56:02.856
"We're together because of our child."

1338
00:56:02.856 --> 00:56:04.550
They do say that.

1339
00:56:04.550 --> 00:56:08.120
So it's possible that they are just

1340
00:56:08.120 --> 00:56:11.690
more likely to together even
if they're having difficulties

1341
00:56:11.690 --> 00:56:15.857
but that's not something
that we've teased out yet.

1342
00:56:19.165 --> 00:56:20.498
Yeah.

1343
00:56:30.525 --> 00:56:33.646
I mean I think a lot of the
findings regarding gay men

1344
00:56:33.646 --> 00:56:34.713
that I sort of pointed out,

1345
00:56:34.713 --> 00:56:37.358
the fact that they're really

1346
00:56:37.358 --> 00:56:40.108
connected to their birth mothers,

1347
00:56:41.894 --> 00:56:44.824
that's a really interesting
finding that we didn't expect.

1348
00:56:44.824 --> 00:56:48.293
Another thing that we heard
over and over and over again

1349
00:56:48.293 --> 00:56:52.766
was that when you put together
a profile for birth parents,

1350
00:56:52.766 --> 00:56:54.566
we heard this from agencies,

1351
00:56:54.566 --> 00:56:58.404
that gay men and lesbians were
the least likely to be chosen

1352
00:56:58.404 --> 00:56:59.304
by birth families.

1353
00:56:59.304 --> 00:57:00.539
We did not see that.

1354
00:57:00.539 --> 00:57:03.075
Gay men have the lowest waiting times,

1355
00:57:03.075 --> 00:57:05.110
so they waited for the
least amount of time,

1356
00:57:05.110 --> 00:57:07.746
which again, speaks to the
point that I brought up.

1357
00:57:07.746 --> 00:57:11.084
But it was funny because
adoption agencies specifically

1358
00:57:11.084 --> 00:57:12.001
were wrong.

1359
00:57:12.853 --> 00:57:14.453
They just guessed this
and they were sort of

1360
00:57:14.453 --> 00:57:18.457
perpetuating this idea that
ultimately was not true.

1361
00:57:18.457 --> 00:57:20.225
I was like, no, they're not
actually waiting longer,

1362
00:57:20.225 --> 00:57:21.662
they're waiting the least amount of time,

1363
00:57:21.662 --> 00:57:23.329
less than your heterosexual couples.

1364
00:57:23.329 --> 00:57:25.298
But they didn't track that.

1365
00:57:25.298 --> 00:57:27.166
So, we were able to
give them that feedback

1366
00:57:27.166 --> 00:57:29.666
which was kind of interesting.

1367
00:57:57.897 --> 00:57:59.397
Yeah.

1368
00:58:08.108 --> 00:58:10.543
I can't remember anyone
saying anything like that,

1369
00:58:10.543 --> 00:58:12.378
like something explicitly homophobic,

1370
00:58:12.378 --> 00:58:16.214
like, "This book went home
and our school went crazy."

1371
00:58:16.214 --> 00:58:19.051
Some of them did talk
about donating materials

1372
00:58:19.051 --> 00:58:22.121
and then other parents complaining.

1373
00:58:22.121 --> 00:58:26.426
Generally speaking, the
parents were very active.

1374
00:58:26.426 --> 00:58:27.977
So they were sort of like,

1375
00:58:27.977 --> 00:58:30.229
"Okay, so let's have a
conversation as parents.

1376
00:58:30.229 --> 00:58:31.797
"Invite those parents
who are complaining in

1377
00:58:31.797 --> 00:58:34.433
"and let's all talk about it."

1378
00:58:34.433 --> 00:58:38.600
So, that takes a certain
amount of effort and energy.

1379
00:58:39.645 --> 00:58:42.642
But they didn't shy away
from that kind of conflict.

1380
00:58:42.642 --> 00:58:45.610
We did have some parents, though,
who never spoke up at all,

1381
00:58:45.610 --> 00:58:49.548
and those parents tended
to live in rural areas

1382
00:58:49.548 --> 00:58:52.284
and have their children
in religious schools,

1383
00:58:52.284 --> 00:58:55.020
and there were not a lot of options.

1384
00:58:55.020 --> 00:58:58.024
Or there were so many other
battles that they were fighting

1385
00:58:58.024 --> 00:58:59.458
that that was like the least of it.

1386
00:58:59.458 --> 00:59:02.561
They were like, "Our kid has
sensory processing problems,

1387
00:59:02.561 --> 00:59:07.132
"and is multiracial and is
having some difficulties

1388
00:59:07.132 --> 00:59:09.469
"with their birth mother
and they need an IAP,"

1389
00:59:09.469 --> 00:59:10.636
I mean there were just so many things.

1390
00:59:10.636 --> 00:59:13.371
And they just said, "we can't
prioritize that one thing."

1391
00:59:13.371 --> 00:59:15.407
So, that's a good question.

1392
00:59:15.407 --> 00:59:16.240
Yeah.

1393
00:59:25.451 --> 00:59:29.655
Yeah, so I have maintained
contact with the agencies

1394
00:59:29.655 --> 00:59:31.457
that supported this research

1395
00:59:31.457 --> 00:59:34.627
and they've been pretty
incredible in terms of

1396
00:59:34.627 --> 00:59:36.462
a.) requesting the information,

1397
00:59:36.462 --> 00:59:38.230
really using the data in ways

1398
00:59:38.230 --> 00:59:39.765
that I think are really productive,

1399
00:59:39.765 --> 00:59:41.434
asking for feedback.

1400
00:59:41.434 --> 00:59:44.904
I think their part of the
title change in terms of

1401
00:59:44.904 --> 00:59:49.241
the changes that we're
seeing in the country,

1402
00:59:49.241 --> 00:59:52.511
they're becoming much more savvy about,

1403
00:59:52.511 --> 00:59:56.315
"Oh, same sex couples are actually...

1404
00:59:56.315 --> 00:59:57.783
"We need them.

1405
00:59:57.783 --> 01:00:00.252
"We can make money if we market to them."

1406
01:00:00.252 --> 01:00:03.389
So recognizing that they're
actually a consumer source

1407
01:00:03.389 --> 01:00:06.516
and so on that level, being more sensitive

1408
01:00:06.516 --> 01:00:09.562
even if it's just for financial gain...

1409
01:00:09.562 --> 01:00:12.564
So, definitely they responded positively.

1410
01:00:12.564 --> 01:00:14.799
I can't think of anyone
who's responded negatively.

1411
01:00:14.799 --> 01:00:18.878
I've also got doing a ton
of workshops to agencies

1412
01:00:18.878 --> 01:00:21.440
and they will follow up with me.

1413
01:00:21.440 --> 01:00:23.509
They're actually the most
likely to follow up with me

1414
01:00:23.509 --> 01:00:24.611
and say, "So we're doing this thing,

1415
01:00:24.611 --> 01:00:26.377
"would you take a look at it?"

1416
01:00:26.377 --> 01:00:29.282
And I'm always happy to do so.

1417
01:00:29.282 --> 01:00:30.682
The ones that are not asking for my help

1418
01:00:30.682 --> 01:00:33.753
are probably the ones that need it.

1419
01:00:33.753 --> 01:00:34.586
So, yeah.

1420
01:00:35.946 --> 01:00:36.779
Yeah.

1421
01:00:55.480 --> 01:00:56.642
Yeah, totally.

1422
01:00:56.642 --> 01:00:58.176
That's a great question.

1423
01:00:58.176 --> 01:01:00.843
So, this just has come up again.

1424
01:01:02.281 --> 01:01:04.616
So a lot of the families in our study

1425
01:01:04.616 --> 01:01:06.084
are in open adoptions

1426
01:01:06.084 --> 01:01:08.321
and a bunch of families
have mentioned to me

1427
01:01:08.321 --> 01:01:10.355
over the years, "You know?

1428
01:01:10.355 --> 01:01:12.958
"Our birth mother would
totally talk to you.

1429
01:01:12.958 --> 01:01:14.460
"Our birth father would
totally talk to you.

1430
01:01:14.460 --> 01:01:15.778
"Our birth grandparents would totally..."

1431
01:01:15.778 --> 01:01:16.795
and I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1432
01:01:16.795 --> 01:01:18.197
And then I started thinking,

1433
01:01:18.197 --> 01:01:19.765
yeah, I should talk to them.

1434
01:01:19.765 --> 01:01:21.566
So, at the next phase,

1435
01:01:21.566 --> 01:01:22.566
phase eight,

1436
01:01:23.484 --> 01:01:27.873
I am going to ask if we can
talk to the birth family members

1437
01:01:27.873 --> 01:01:30.677
because that's how the whole
kid inclusion came about

1438
01:01:30.677 --> 01:01:32.110
is people kept saying,
"So when are you gonna

1439
01:01:32.110 --> 01:01:33.612
"talk to our kids?"

1440
01:01:33.612 --> 01:01:35.115
And I was like, talking
to a five year old's

1441
01:01:35.115 --> 01:01:36.715
really hard on the phone,

1442
01:01:36.715 --> 01:01:38.384
but when they get to be eight or nine,

1443
01:01:38.384 --> 01:01:39.485
then I can talk to them.

1444
01:01:39.485 --> 01:01:40.619
And that's what we do now

1445
01:01:40.619 --> 01:01:42.922
and we also offer an option for Skyping

1446
01:01:42.922 --> 01:01:44.056
and the kids love it.

1447
01:01:44.056 --> 01:01:45.657
The kids are not used to actually

1448
01:01:45.657 --> 01:01:47.860
talking on the phone
these days. (laughter)

1449
01:01:47.860 --> 01:01:49.896
So they are like, "Phone?

1450
01:01:49.896 --> 01:01:50.863
"I don't wanna do that."

1451
01:01:50.863 --> 01:01:53.899
But Skyping is actually
much more natural for them.

1452
01:01:53.899 --> 01:01:55.667
So that's been really fun.

1453
01:01:55.667 --> 01:01:58.304
So that's an example of a
piece of advice I did take

1454
01:01:58.304 --> 01:02:01.807
and then one that it's just
taking me a really long time.

1455
01:02:01.807 --> 01:02:03.542
And then just the other
day I got an email saying,

1456
01:02:03.542 --> 01:02:05.577
"Our birth mother would
love to talk to you."

1457
01:02:05.577 --> 01:02:07.781
And I was thinking, maybe,

1458
01:02:07.781 --> 01:02:09.281
it's hard to do it mid-phase...

1459
01:02:09.281 --> 01:02:11.614
But that's a great question.

1460
01:02:13.051 --> 01:02:13.884
Yeah.

1461
01:02:26.874 --> 01:02:27.707
Yeah.

1462
01:02:27.707 --> 01:02:28.901
We've definitely looked at that.

1463
01:02:28.901 --> 01:02:30.402
We have some specific publications

1464
01:02:30.402 --> 01:02:32.837
looking only at each of those groups

1465
01:02:32.837 --> 01:02:35.074
because their experiences
are so different.

1466
01:02:35.074 --> 01:02:37.409
So, as an example, openness,

1467
01:02:37.409 --> 01:02:39.612
a lot harder in international adoptions

1468
01:02:39.612 --> 01:02:41.680
although we've had families
that have tracked down

1469
01:02:41.680 --> 01:02:44.316
either their child's foster families

1470
01:02:44.316 --> 01:02:45.651
or their child's birth families

1471
01:02:45.651 --> 01:02:49.071
with the help of private
investigators in other countries.

1472
01:02:49.071 --> 01:02:52.190
And then some foster
families have had openness,

1473
01:02:52.190 --> 01:02:54.726
even though that wasn't part
of the initial arrangement.

1474
01:02:54.726 --> 01:02:58.697
The families who adopt through
childcare, child welfare,

1475
01:02:58.697 --> 01:03:01.600
experience...

1476
01:03:01.600 --> 01:03:03.735
a unique set of challenges

1477
01:03:03.735 --> 01:03:05.371
around openness in particular

1478
01:03:05.371 --> 01:03:06.771
because they wanna be open

1479
01:03:06.771 --> 01:03:09.642
but often those children
are removed from the home

1480
01:03:09.642 --> 01:03:10.843
for very good reasons.

1481
01:03:10.843 --> 01:03:12.645
So, there's abuse and there's neglect

1482
01:03:12.645 --> 01:03:15.482
and so maintaining openness
can be really difficult

1483
01:03:15.482 --> 01:03:18.033
and isn't always the best
thing for that child.

1484
01:03:18.033 --> 01:03:20.253
So there are so many differences.

1485
01:03:20.253 --> 01:03:21.920
Attachment looks really different

1486
01:03:21.920 --> 01:03:25.524
in those different types of families.

1487
01:03:25.524 --> 01:03:27.159
Yeah.

1488
01:03:27.159 --> 01:03:29.627
And racial dynamics, obviously.

1489
01:03:29.627 --> 01:03:30.695
In international adoptions,

1490
01:03:30.695 --> 01:03:32.532
there's the racial and cultural piece,

1491
01:03:32.532 --> 01:03:34.699
which is really important.

1492
01:03:35.968 --> 01:03:37.218
Yeah.

1493
01:03:47.580 --> 01:03:48.580
Oh.

1494
01:04:09.403 --> 01:04:12.353
I don't know if I understand the question.

1495
01:04:12.353 --> 01:04:14.436
(laughs)

1496
01:04:19.711 --> 01:04:20.879
Oh, I see what you're saying,

1497
01:04:20.879 --> 01:04:21.914
so other areas.

1498
01:04:21.914 --> 01:04:22.747
Right.

1499
01:04:24.182 --> 01:04:25.150
Oh yeah, I see what you're saying.

1500
01:04:25.150 --> 01:04:27.486
This is sort of like an
ongoing continuous thing.

1501
01:04:27.486 --> 01:04:29.155
I do have a couple of other studies.

1502
01:04:29.155 --> 01:04:32.424
I'm studying bisexual
women partnered with men

1503
01:04:32.424 --> 01:04:34.025
who are pregnant and looking at their

1504
01:04:34.025 --> 01:04:35.894
transition to parenthood.

1505
01:04:35.894 --> 01:04:38.296
And trasgendered, gender
nonconforming college students

1506
01:04:38.296 --> 01:04:40.165
and their experiences at college.

1507
01:04:40.165 --> 01:04:43.402
So, those two areas actually to me,

1508
01:04:43.402 --> 01:04:44.903
they might seem really different,

1509
01:04:44.903 --> 01:04:47.305
but actually, they're totally in line

1510
01:04:47.305 --> 01:04:50.041
with my overarching interest which is...

1511
01:04:50.041 --> 01:04:50.876
Right, totally.

1512
01:04:50.876 --> 01:04:53.178
So, yes, they're invisible populations.

1513
01:04:53.178 --> 01:04:56.315
They're populations that nobody sees.

1514
01:04:56.315 --> 01:04:58.250
So bisexual women partnered with men,

1515
01:04:58.250 --> 01:04:59.986
when they present to a doctor's office,

1516
01:04:59.986 --> 01:05:01.855
people think they're heterosexual

1517
01:05:01.855 --> 01:05:04.456
and never ask anything
about their sexual identity

1518
01:05:04.456 --> 01:05:06.925
which has impacts on their
transition to parenthood,

1519
01:05:06.925 --> 01:05:09.729
their community supports and so on.

1520
01:05:09.729 --> 01:05:12.831
Specifically gender
non-binary college students,

1521
01:05:12.831 --> 01:05:14.700
which is what I'm interested in,

1522
01:05:14.700 --> 01:05:16.817
are often really lost.

1523
01:05:16.817 --> 01:05:19.439
Even in colleges that consider themselves

1524
01:05:19.439 --> 01:05:21.148
very trans-affirming

1525
01:05:21.148 --> 01:05:23.426
often don't really
consider the experiences

1526
01:05:23.426 --> 01:05:27.279
of students that endorse
non-binary gender identities.

1527
01:05:27.279 --> 01:05:31.417
So, really both of those
studies come out of observations

1528
01:05:31.417 --> 01:05:33.185
of invisible populations

1529
01:05:33.185 --> 01:05:36.022
and the trans study is really based on

1530
01:05:36.022 --> 01:05:38.657
a year of conversations with my students

1531
01:05:38.657 --> 01:05:40.693
and focus groups and an excitement around

1532
01:05:40.693 --> 01:05:43.443
delving into that as a community.

1533
01:05:44.296 --> 01:05:48.299
So it's a project that
is very student-driven

1534
01:05:48.299 --> 01:05:50.966
and it's fantastic and exciting.

1535
01:05:55.775 --> 01:05:56.608
Yeah.

1536
01:06:37.882 --> 01:06:38.884
Right.

1537
01:06:38.884 --> 01:06:39.985
That's a great question.

1538
01:06:39.985 --> 01:06:42.235
So we did look at wait time

1539
01:06:43.255 --> 01:06:45.190
in relation to all these
different outcomes,

1540
01:06:45.190 --> 01:06:47.959
like the length of time
that they waited for a child

1541
01:06:47.959 --> 01:06:49.694
and we didn't actually see anything,

1542
01:06:49.694 --> 01:06:51.363
like it didn't affect their mental health

1543
01:06:51.363 --> 01:06:53.165
or their relationship quality.

1544
01:06:53.165 --> 01:06:55.667
But what I will say is
that all adoptive parents

1545
01:06:55.667 --> 01:06:58.837
have to go through a certain
number of classes, etc,

1546
01:06:58.837 --> 01:06:59.971
so they have some time.

1547
01:06:59.971 --> 01:07:01.774
It's not like they say "I want to adopt,"

1548
01:07:01.774 --> 01:07:03.275
and the next day they can get a child.

1549
01:07:03.275 --> 01:07:06.628
They do have to complete a
certain amount of course work

1550
01:07:06.628 --> 01:07:09.248
and have somebody visit
their home and do all that.

1551
01:07:09.248 --> 01:07:13.452
But I can think qualitatively
of examples of people

1552
01:07:13.452 --> 01:07:14.820
who felt like they were...

1553
01:07:14.820 --> 01:07:17.088
It's sort of like when people
start trying to have a child

1554
01:07:17.088 --> 01:07:19.691
biologically before they're ready,

1555
01:07:19.691 --> 01:07:20.892
and then they get
pregnant and they're like,

1556
01:07:20.892 --> 01:07:23.562
"Oh, okay. I guess that's
happening more quickly

1557
01:07:23.562 --> 01:07:24.764
"than we thought."

1558
01:07:24.764 --> 01:07:26.431
That same thing happens
with adoptive parents,

1559
01:07:26.431 --> 01:07:28.367
where they think it'll
take a really long time

1560
01:07:28.367 --> 01:07:30.969
and then it might take a
very short amount of time.

1561
01:07:30.969 --> 01:07:32.971
And so we have had families that felt like

1562
01:07:32.971 --> 01:07:37.074
there was a child that
came into their home

1563
01:07:37.074 --> 01:07:37.910
with very little notice

1564
01:07:37.910 --> 01:07:39.711
or in some cases,

1565
01:07:39.711 --> 01:07:41.346
they were presented with siblings

1566
01:07:41.346 --> 01:07:43.148
when they expected one child,

1567
01:07:43.148 --> 01:07:46.318
and that was something that was unexpected

1568
01:07:46.318 --> 01:07:47.985
and created a total,

1569
01:07:49.621 --> 01:07:51.791
it was a much more difficult
transition for them.

1570
01:07:51.791 --> 01:07:53.927
We've also had quite a number of families

1571
01:07:53.927 --> 01:07:55.260
where they adopted a child,

1572
01:07:55.260 --> 01:07:57.062
they're going along with their daily life,

1573
01:07:57.062 --> 01:07:58.163
and then all of a sudden,

1574
01:07:58.163 --> 01:07:59.598
they get a call from their agency saying,

1575
01:07:59.598 --> 01:08:02.967
"Your child's birth
mother just gave birth.

1576
01:08:02.967 --> 01:08:03.800
"The child's here.

1577
01:08:03.800 --> 01:08:05.604
"Do you want the child?"

1578
01:08:05.604 --> 01:08:07.940
So they have to make a
split-second decision

1579
01:08:07.940 --> 01:08:10.776
about whether they're going
to adopt that other child.

1580
01:08:10.776 --> 01:08:14.943
Sometimes that decision has to
be made in a matter of hours.

1581
01:08:15.971 --> 01:08:18.250
Right, so yeah, it's less
common with a first...

1582
01:08:18.250 --> 01:08:19.751
It definitely can happen,

1583
01:08:19.751 --> 01:08:22.922
but yes, even with the first child,

1584
01:08:22.922 --> 01:08:24.656
sometimes they have to
make decisions quickly

1585
01:08:24.656 --> 01:08:27.592
based on a very limited
amount of information.

1586
01:08:27.592 --> 01:08:29.194
So, yes of course they want a child,

1587
01:08:29.194 --> 01:08:30.329
but then they're told,

1588
01:08:30.329 --> 01:08:32.064
"This child has prenatal drug exposure,

1589
01:08:32.064 --> 01:08:33.999
"and we don't know how much."

1590
01:08:33.999 --> 01:08:35.033
So they have to make a decision

1591
01:08:35.033 --> 01:08:36.835
based on very limited information,

1592
01:08:36.835 --> 01:08:41.374
or it appears that this child
may have had this risk factor.

1593
01:08:41.374 --> 01:08:44.342
Do they wanna take the
risk or do they not?

1594
01:08:44.342 --> 01:08:46.044
So yeah, so it can be, yes.

1595
01:08:46.044 --> 01:08:47.845
And that can create a lot more challenges.

1596
01:08:47.845 --> 01:08:52.694
But different couples deal
with it in different ways.

1597
01:08:52.694 --> 01:08:53.527
Yeah.

1598
01:09:17.209 --> 01:09:20.378
Right, so we actually do look at that.

1599
01:09:20.378 --> 01:09:21.981
And one of the things I
thought about presenting,

1600
01:09:21.981 --> 01:09:23.582
but I just cut it for time,

1601
01:09:23.582 --> 01:09:27.418
was that we look at the kinds
of socialization efforts

1602
01:09:27.418 --> 01:09:28.586
that they're engaged in,

1603
01:09:28.586 --> 01:09:30.755
so how much sort of active...

1604
01:09:30.755 --> 01:09:34.327
How much, for example,
actively prepare their child

1605
01:09:34.327 --> 01:09:36.262
for racial bias, that's one,

1606
01:09:36.262 --> 01:09:38.855
or heterosexist bias, or adoptive bias,

1607
01:09:38.855 --> 01:09:41.767
and we find that lesbian and gay parents

1608
01:09:41.767 --> 01:09:44.270
do actually engage in
higher levels of preparation

1609
01:09:44.270 --> 01:09:45.720
for bias.

1610
01:09:45.720 --> 01:09:49.942
But we relate that to, again,
their own exposure to stigma.

1611
01:09:49.942 --> 01:09:52.036
They're also engaging in more preparation

1612
01:09:52.036 --> 01:09:53.712
for other types of bias.

1613
01:09:53.712 --> 01:09:54.747
So,

1614
01:09:54.747 --> 01:09:56.414
that is interesting.

1615
01:09:57.348 --> 01:09:59.185
I would say there's more variability

1616
01:09:59.185 --> 01:10:00.418
in heterosexual couples.

1617
01:10:00.418 --> 01:10:01.654
There's some couples that say,

1618
01:10:01.654 --> 01:10:03.404
"Race doesn't matter.

1619
01:10:04.256 --> 01:10:06.091
"We're colorblind."

1620
01:10:06.091 --> 01:10:09.694
I don't hear that as much
from our same sex couples.

1621
01:10:09.694 --> 01:10:12.064
That's not a common sentiment

1622
01:10:12.064 --> 01:10:13.498
but it is something that we hear from some

1623
01:10:13.498 --> 01:10:15.831
of our heterosexual couples.

1624
01:10:17.619 --> 01:10:18.452
Yeah.

1625
01:10:35.018 --> 01:10:37.589
Right, so the measure of
internalized homophobia

1626
01:10:37.589 --> 01:10:39.357
or internalized homo-negativity,

1627
01:10:39.357 --> 01:10:41.659
or bi-negativity, it's a scale.

1628
01:10:41.659 --> 01:10:46.530
And so it's a questionnaire
about how comfortable you are,

1629
01:10:46.530 --> 01:10:49.402
how confident you are in your identity.

1630
01:10:49.402 --> 01:10:52.704
I can certainly send you the
measure if you're interested.

1631
01:10:52.704 --> 01:10:54.940
It's a very commonly used measure

1632
01:10:54.940 --> 01:10:58.523
that was created by
Greg Herek at UC Davis.

1633
01:11:04.016 --> 01:11:04.933
Sure, yeah.

1634
01:11:08.487 --> 01:11:09.320
Oh yeah.

1635
01:11:17.872 --> 01:11:19.864
Yeah, that's a very good question.

1636
01:11:19.864 --> 01:11:21.700
So I was impressed that I was invited

1637
01:11:21.700 --> 01:11:24.937
to the Headmistresses
Association of America meeting

1638
01:11:24.937 --> 01:11:26.705
as their plenary speaker.

1639
01:11:26.705 --> 01:11:29.874
I didn't know who they
were until I looked it up.

1640
01:11:29.874 --> 01:11:33.911
So that's basically a
bunch of private schools,

1641
01:11:33.911 --> 01:11:35.813
they're really wealthy private schools

1642
01:11:35.813 --> 01:11:37.549
around the Northeast,

1643
01:11:37.549 --> 01:11:40.619
and they were really interested
in what can we do better.

1644
01:11:40.619 --> 01:11:43.879
When people are asking that question,

1645
01:11:43.879 --> 01:11:45.624
I think usually they really want feedback.

1646
01:11:45.624 --> 01:11:47.592
They're not just like,
"Tell us we're awesome."

1647
01:11:47.592 --> 01:11:51.370
They're like, "Tell us
what we can do better?"

1648
01:11:51.370 --> 01:11:53.632
And sometimes I was saying
the most basic things

1649
01:11:53.632 --> 01:11:57.709
and they were like, "That
is the greatest idea ever."

1650
01:11:57.709 --> 01:12:01.306
Well, all I said was
don't just use examples

1651
01:12:01.306 --> 01:12:03.275
of moms and dads.

1652
01:12:03.275 --> 01:12:05.610
And they were like,
"Okay, we're doing this."

1653
01:12:05.610 --> 01:12:06.979
(laughter)

1654
01:12:06.979 --> 01:12:10.514
So on one level, everybody's
starting at a different level,

1655
01:12:10.514 --> 01:12:13.452
so there are definitely
schools that I've talked to.

1656
01:12:13.452 --> 01:12:16.220
One time I gave a talk at a conference

1657
01:12:16.220 --> 01:12:18.564
of school psychologists.

1658
01:12:18.564 --> 01:12:21.393
They were a little bit more nuanced,

1659
01:12:21.393 --> 01:12:25.004
they wanted more help
dealing with different

1660
01:12:25.004 --> 01:12:29.434
socioeconomic groups

1661
01:12:29.434 --> 01:12:32.171
and how to deal with heterosexual parents

1662
01:12:32.171 --> 01:12:33.739
who didn't want these gay
parents in the school.

1663
01:12:33.739 --> 01:12:36.664
They were asking more critical...

1664
01:12:36.664 --> 01:12:37.710
Very specific questions.

1665
01:12:37.710 --> 01:12:39.510
They'd done all the stuff of like,

1666
01:12:39.510 --> 01:12:41.646
modifying their forms,

1667
01:12:41.646 --> 01:12:43.749
and they didn't say heterosexual mother

1668
01:12:43.749 --> 01:12:45.517
and heterosexual father anymore.

1669
01:12:45.517 --> 01:12:48.253
So I think everybody's
at a different place.

1670
01:12:48.253 --> 01:12:49.821
And it's fun to talk to groups

1671
01:12:49.821 --> 01:12:51.290
who are in different places

1672
01:12:51.290 --> 01:12:53.057
but sometimes when I
start talking to a group,

1673
01:12:53.057 --> 01:12:55.627
I realize I have to take
either a giant step back,

1674
01:12:55.627 --> 01:12:57.762
or a giant step forward,

1675
01:12:57.762 --> 01:13:01.734
'cause it's hard to sometimes
gauge where they're at,

1676
01:13:01.734 --> 01:13:05.269
their level of comfort,
knowledge, sensitivity,

1677
01:13:05.269 --> 01:13:07.019
and so on.

1678
01:13:20.160 --> 01:13:21.827
Thank you.

1679
01:13:23.127 --> 01:13:25.377
(applause)