WEBVTT

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- Good evening.

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Hi, nice to see everybody here tonight.

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And I think we have a really exciting,

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stimulating presentation ahead of us.

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Before I go any further, I'm Josh Miller.

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I'm the cting Dean for the
School for Social Work.

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I have one announcement I was
asked to make by Student Org,

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which is that elections
are taking place this week.

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And they end,

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the balloting ends on Friday.

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So people are encouraged to vote,

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if you have not yet done so.

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So, I want to just say a few
things about the significance

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of this particular Monday Night Lecture,

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before I introduce our speaker.

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This is the Lydia Rapoport
lecture and what it means is that

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our guest tonight is not
just here for one lecture,

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but she will be with us all week.

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And will be part of a number
of different presentations

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and classes and gatherings.

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It's particularly fitting that tonight

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our lecturer is Faye Mishna,

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because she is a graduate
of our doctoral program.

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And this marks the 50th anniversary of

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the Smith College School for
Social Work doctoral program.

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And that's actually quite a milestone.

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(audience applause)
Yes, thank you.

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The celebrations began yesterday,

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when the person who was Dean
of the School for Social Work,

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Howard Parad, was here
along with almost all

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of the co-directors of
the doctoral program,

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many of its alumni, and many
of our current PhD students.

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And there was a really
interesting presentation

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by Jerry Shamus, who is professor
emeritus at Smith College.

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As well as a panel discussion

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from some of our distinguished alumni.

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So that's kicked off a week

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of recognizing our doctoral program.

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Just very briefly,

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the Smith College PhD program
was started 50 years ago

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at a time when there were not
clinical doctoral programs.

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So it was really a unique venture.

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It was met by a lot of skepticism

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from some of the leaders
within the profession.

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Although, there were also
some who supported it.

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And it has carved out this
unique niche ever since.

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We have many graduates from this program.

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And over half of them teach
either full-time or part-time

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at universities all over the country.

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And in North America.

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So, it's a special place in
the field of social work.

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It's really needed in this sea
of R1 universities that focus

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on how to turn people into
really great researchers.

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Including the University of Toronto,

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where our speaker is from.

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But there also needs to be something else,

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and I think we are that something else.

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And...

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To have lasted for 50 years,

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and to have been as strong
and as influential as we are,

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is really, I think, a
statement about that.

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So I'm looking forward
to the next 50 years

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for the doctoral program.

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Actually, I don't think I'll be here.

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But hopefully, many of you
in the audience will be.

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This is called the
'Lydia Rapoport Lecture'

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because Lydia Rapoport
was a eminent therapist,

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and a graduate of our program,

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who graduated in...

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1944

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She lived in between 1923 and 1971.

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She had a very short, but
a very impactful life.

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And one of the things that
I just wanted to mention

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about her, is that she really stressed...

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She was an expert on
brief, short-term practice,

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at time when that was something
that was just emerging.

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And even though she was very steeped

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in the school's psycho-dynamic tradition,

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she placed a great emphasis on prevention

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rather than completely
focusing on pathology.

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And so, in that way, she
was really a pioneer.

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Obviously, I didn't know her.

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But from what I've heard,
she was a beloved person.

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She really made her mark
with whoever she met.

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And so, this lecture and this
Scholar and Resident's Week

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is in her honor.

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So now I'd like to move to
talking a little bit about

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Faye Mishna, who is the Dean

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at the Univerity of Toronto
School for Social Work.

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And as I said earlier,

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one of our more illustrious
graduates from our PhD program.

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And before I talk about about
some of her academic work,

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I have this from very
reliable sources that,

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in Toronto, Faye has a special order

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at the local Starbucks.

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They know her by name.

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And also they know what
temperature she likes her coffee.

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So that's something to keep in mind,

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if you're at any meetings
with her this week.

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Or if you accompany her downtown

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to any of our coffee shops.

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So anyway,

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Faye, as I said, is the Dean
at the University of Toronto.

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And she's also the Professor
of the Factor Inwentash Faculty

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at the University of Toronto.

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And also, cross-appointed in
the School of Pshychiatry,

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as well as the School for Social Work.

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She holds the Margaret and
Wallace McCain Family Chair

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in Child and Family.

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And she worked in children's mental health

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for over 20 years prior
to joining the faculty.

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So Faye had a very strong
and deep practice background

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before she became an academic.

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As well as graduating from Smith,

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she is a graduate of
the Canadian Institute

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for Child and Adolescent
Psychoanalytic Psychotherapy.

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And despite being the Dean
of one of North America's

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major research university
schools of social work,

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she maintains a small private practice

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in psychotherapy and consultation.

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And I can just tell you,

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in my brief stint as acting Dean,

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I only marvel that she's able to do that.

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She's conducted research on bullying,

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on cyber-bullying, cyber-counseling,

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and the impact of information
and communication technology

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in face to face counseling,

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and interventions with
vulnerable children and youth.

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I don't know about you,

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but this is something that I feel like

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I am just beginning to start to grasp.

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And I'm really excited about the fact

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that Dr. Mishna is here tonight
to talk to us about this.

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She has many scholarly publications.

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Some have focused on
bullying, clinical practice,

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social work education, and more recently,

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on cyber technology and
its use in counseling.

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She's currently conducting
a longitudinal study

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on cyber-bullying amongst students

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grades four, seven, and ten.

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And is also collecting
research on the implications

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of cyber technology for
social work practice.

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She's the author of a book on bullying,

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published by Oxford
University Press in October,

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I mean, excuse me, May of 2012.

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Please join me in
welcoming Dr. Faye Mishna.

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(audience applause)

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Thank you, can you hear me?

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So first of all, it's an
incredible honor to be here.

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And I just want to say something
about the Smith College

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School for Social Work PhD program.

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It is one of the best things
that I ever did in my life.

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I loved every moment of it.

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And one of the things that,
the University of Toronto

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is a research intensive university,

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but we really are focused
on trying to integrate

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research and practice,
and practice and research.

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And so, the people who
graduate from this program,

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from Smith College, are really valued.

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And I think it's really
important to remember that.

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That what you have is unique,

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it's not being taught everywhere else.

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But there's a gap and we really need it.

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So, just wanted to say that.

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And speaking of Smith...

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So when I came to start
the doctoral program,

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I was supervisor of an
agency that worked with

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kids who had learning disabilities

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and social, emotional problems.

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So of course, they were always referred

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for a lot of psycho-social
problems, including bullying.

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But it was actually my dissertation,

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so my research at Smith,

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that helped me realize the
importance of bullying.

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And it's because of Smith

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that I got into my program of research.

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What happened was, we
at this little agency,

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we offered group therapy for the kids.

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And that was very different,

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because most places at the time

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were offering social skills training.

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Where they were teaching the
kids how to learn skills.

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But we were offering a
more open-ended therapy.

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Assuming that they did have the skills,

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but they just had a lot
of anxiety and issues.

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So my research was Grounded Theory,

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where I was interviewing them,

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asking them about their experiences

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of being in the group therapy.

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I did not ask them one
thing about bullying.

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It was not on my mind.

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And one of the things that
came out in the research,

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and it's one of the
reasons I love research,

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is that they talked a lot bit about how,

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their words were, they said,
one of the things they loved

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about being in the group,

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is they didn't have to worry

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about the fact of being bullied.

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They didn't have to worry
about how they were talking

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or how they were being.

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And that was critical for them.

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So for me, that really
influenced my practice,

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when I went back, after I finished.

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We brought bullying front
and center into the program.

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Because we realized, into the services,

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because I realized they
were just as affected

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by the bullying, and the
lack of validation of it,

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as they were affected by
the learning disabilities.

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And then I stayed at the
agency for five years.

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And then the University
of Toronto was looking

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for somebody who did research,
but who was really clinical.

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So I decided to apply.

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And one of the things you have to do

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is choose a program of research.

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And my program of
research became bullying.

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So, I feel like it's just really been

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the research and practice
going back and forth.

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And...

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And then I started
working on cyber-bullying.

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And that's what I'm going
to talk about today.

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And I'm going to just give an overview

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of cyber-bullying and the cyber world.

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And then I'd like to present
some, as Josh mentioned,

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I'm doing a three year study right now.

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And we're in the third year,

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and we're just starting to
look at some of the data.

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And some of the interviews
have very interesting findings,

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that I think have huge implications

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for social work practice.

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For all practice, but for social work.

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So I wanted to talk a
little bit about that.

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So it's 'What's App With Youth Online'.

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And this...

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Sorry.

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Is that working?

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So Laurel, I wanted to just
talk briefly about Laurel.

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When I had started doing my
research on cyber-bullying,

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that was when everybody
knew about predators.

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Nobody was interested in cyber-bullying.

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And Laurel was referred
to me at my practice.

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She was 15.

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Her parents were absolutely devastated,

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because they had gotten a
phone call from the principal

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that a photo of her was being

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passed around the school, digitally.

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And she didn't have a top on.

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And they were very freaked out about it.

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And at that time, I did know about that

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because of our study that we had done.

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But nope, it was not on the radar.

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People were not aware of that.

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So, I'm going to come
back to Laurel at the end.

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But when I would talk
about cyber-bullying then,

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I often used,

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I would obviously disguise it,

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but I often used her as an example.

257
00:12:29.915 --> 00:12:32.309
Saying, "This is an
example of cyber-bullying."

258
00:12:32.309 --> 00:12:34.709
And now when we go over
it eight years later,

259
00:12:34.709 --> 00:12:36.693
it's out there completely.

260
00:12:36.693 --> 00:12:38.883
Which I think has its own
issues that I'll talk about.

261
00:12:40.513 --> 00:12:44.028
The question that people ask
about cyber-bullying often is,

262
00:12:44.028 --> 00:12:46.342
is it the same as bullying,
traditional bulling,

263
00:12:46.342 --> 00:12:47.504
or is it different?

264
00:12:47.504 --> 00:12:49.712
And I think the answer
is, we don't really know.

265
00:12:49.712 --> 00:12:51.600
And people are really trying to sort out

266
00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:53.552
the differences and similarities.

267
00:12:53.552 --> 00:12:55.836
We do know there are
similarities to bullying,

268
00:12:55.836 --> 00:12:57.392
and we do know there are differences.

269
00:12:57.392 --> 00:13:00.016
But we also know that
cyber-bullying takes place

270
00:13:00.016 --> 00:13:02.885
in the context of this new cyber world.

271
00:13:02.885 --> 00:13:03.994
And we cannot,

272
00:13:03.994 --> 00:13:05.925
I really feel that we cannot,

273
00:13:05.925 --> 00:13:08.164
talk about or understand cyber-bullying

274
00:13:08.164 --> 00:13:10.212
unless we put it in the
context of the world.

275
00:13:10.212 --> 00:13:11.983
Because it's a new world.

276
00:13:13.363 --> 00:13:14.912
So the cyber world,

277
00:13:14.912 --> 00:13:18.368
it's created a whole new
social environment for youth.

278
00:13:18.368 --> 00:13:21.067
Where there are
unprecedented opportunities

279
00:13:21.067 --> 00:13:24.395
for them to have interactions
with people inside and outside

280
00:13:24.395 --> 00:13:26.241
of their social world.

281
00:13:26.241 --> 00:13:29.271
And that's never happened before.

282
00:13:29.271 --> 00:13:30.731
And it's always advancing.

283
00:13:30.731 --> 00:13:32.236
That's the other thing
that's very critical.

284
00:13:32.236 --> 00:13:33.900
It happens very quickly.

285
00:13:35.770 --> 00:13:37.949
'The Cyber World', and more-so now,

286
00:13:37.949 --> 00:13:39.657
because when I started doing the research

287
00:13:39.657 --> 00:13:42.963
it was computers, but now it's mobiles,

288
00:13:42.963 --> 00:13:47.070
is pervasive, it creeps into
all aspects of our lives.

289
00:13:47.070 --> 00:13:49.811
And it's just really permeated everything.

290
00:13:49.811 --> 00:13:52.861
It's constantly changing,
and it's rapidly advancing.

291
00:13:52.861 --> 00:13:55.826
When I first started working
in it, I went to a talk,

292
00:13:55.826 --> 00:13:57.800
this was like about
eight or nine years ago,

293
00:13:57.800 --> 00:14:00.559
and it was a lawyer
speaking about cyber safety.

294
00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:02.254
But he talked about it being equivalent

295
00:14:02.254 --> 00:14:03.695
to the Industrial Revolution.

296
00:14:03.695 --> 00:14:05.198
That it's that revolutionary.

297
00:14:05.198 --> 00:14:07.032
And I think we need to understand that.

298
00:14:10.402 --> 00:14:13.599
So, teenagers and children have,

299
00:14:13.599 --> 00:14:16.479
they are on so many on-line platforms.

300
00:14:16.479 --> 00:14:19.029
Facebook, Twitter, Instagram.

301
00:14:19.029 --> 00:14:21.173
And every day there are new ones.

302
00:14:21.173 --> 00:14:24.330
And they're accessing
these kinds of platforms

303
00:14:24.330 --> 00:14:25.310
more and more.

304
00:14:25.310 --> 00:14:27.411
And more and more, they're
doing it in a mobile way.

305
00:14:28.511 --> 00:14:29.970
One way to think about it,

306
00:14:29.970 --> 00:14:31.598
this is a generation of youth

307
00:14:31.598 --> 00:14:34.226
that have never known a
world without technology.

308
00:14:34.226 --> 00:14:35.835
And when I first started talking about it,

309
00:14:35.835 --> 00:14:37.436
I thought about it as DNA.

310
00:14:37.436 --> 00:14:40.401
But then we realized
that DNA is our old term.

311
00:14:40.401 --> 00:14:41.532
It really is their OS.

312
00:14:41.532 --> 00:14:43.601
It's really in their Operating System.

313
00:14:46.031 --> 00:14:47.897
And just a bit about some statistics.

314
00:14:47.897 --> 00:14:51.022
If you look at the numbers
of the unique visitors

315
00:14:51.022 --> 00:14:54.628
to Facebook, Twitter, and Snapchat.

316
00:14:54.628 --> 00:14:57.348
So Snapchat, it's 400
million 'snaps' a day.

317
00:14:57.348 --> 00:14:59.748
This is absolutely pervasive.

318
00:14:59.748 --> 00:15:03.138
And one thing that I keep
coming back to is that,

319
00:15:03.138 --> 00:15:05.218
when something happens, like a tragedy,

320
00:15:05.218 --> 00:15:06.776
it's in the media, and we talk about it.

321
00:15:06.776 --> 00:15:08.995
And then, a week later, it's gone.

322
00:15:08.995 --> 00:15:11.075
But adults need to be aware that,

323
00:15:11.075 --> 00:15:12.887
because it's gone from our radar screen,

324
00:15:12.887 --> 00:15:14.957
but it's going on, they are living this.

325
00:15:17.867 --> 00:15:20.033
So the cyber world, it can
increase the likelihood

326
00:15:20.033 --> 00:15:21.196
of negative interactions.

327
00:15:21.196 --> 00:15:22.721
Which everybody's aware of.

328
00:15:24.561 --> 00:15:26.419
For reasons that people know,

329
00:15:26.419 --> 00:15:28.124
there are fewer social skills.

330
00:15:28.124 --> 00:15:31.016
There's a record of the
events, forever and ever.

331
00:15:31.016 --> 00:15:33.585
And it's always available,
that's one of the big things.

332
00:15:33.585 --> 00:15:36.498
One of the kids in one of
our studies on cyber-bullying

333
00:15:36.498 --> 00:15:38.609
said, "It's non-stop bullying."

334
00:15:38.609 --> 00:15:40.358
Because it can happen at school,

335
00:15:40.358 --> 00:15:42.545
and then it can kind of follow you home.

336
00:15:44.625 --> 00:15:46.502
But when people talk about cyber-bullying,

337
00:15:46.502 --> 00:15:48.186
the often talk about the technology,

338
00:15:48.186 --> 00:15:49.894
as if the technology is the issue.

339
00:15:49.894 --> 00:15:52.432
We have to remember that cyber-bullying,

340
00:15:52.432 --> 00:15:54.362
like regular bullying,

341
00:15:54.362 --> 00:15:57.061
happens in the context of relationships.

342
00:15:57.061 --> 00:15:59.013
So we need to think about it.

343
00:15:59.013 --> 00:16:02.650
The technology facilitates
that, for good and for bad,

344
00:16:02.650 --> 00:16:04.719
but it really does
happen in relationships.

345
00:16:05.419 --> 00:16:07.608
And there are features of the technology

346
00:16:07.608 --> 00:16:10.701
that adds additional complexities
to the relationships.

347
00:16:10.701 --> 00:16:12.184
And again, the younger you are,

348
00:16:12.184 --> 00:16:14.188
although adults have
trouble with it as well.

349
00:16:14.188 --> 00:16:17.196
So, it lessens inhibitions,
because it's just...

350
00:16:17.196 --> 00:16:18.498
You press 'send'.

351
00:16:18.498 --> 00:16:20.674
It's often and it's spontaneous.

352
00:16:20.674 --> 00:16:22.476
And it happens all the time.

353
00:16:22.476 --> 00:16:24.738
There's fewer social and contextual cues.

354
00:16:24.738 --> 00:16:27.990
And that can decrease somebody's
sensitivity or empathy.

355
00:16:27.990 --> 00:16:30.465
Because if you're seeing
somebody face to face,

356
00:16:30.465 --> 00:16:32.055
and you're doing
something hurtful to them,

357
00:16:32.055 --> 00:16:33.921
you can see it in their
body, in their face.

358
00:16:33.921 --> 00:16:35.041
That might stop you.

359
00:16:35.041 --> 00:16:36.321
You don't see it this way.

360
00:16:36.321 --> 00:16:38.709
And kids talk about that,
when they they describe that.

361
00:16:38.709 --> 00:16:41.045
And there's the perception of anonymity.

362
00:16:41.045 --> 00:16:43.104
And the reason I say it's a perception is,

363
00:16:43.104 --> 00:16:45.723
there's really an assumption
that it's anonymous,

364
00:16:45.723 --> 00:16:46.546
but it's not.

365
00:16:46.546 --> 00:16:49.308
People really, it happens
in their friendship circles.

366
00:16:49.308 --> 00:16:50.972
They might not know who's
doing it right away,

367
00:16:50.972 --> 00:16:52.700
but they do find out.

368
00:16:55.170 --> 00:16:58.726
So, I don't need to tell you, what's clear

369
00:16:58.726 --> 00:17:00.580
is that it can be a
dangerous combination that

370
00:17:00.580 --> 00:17:03.947
increases the likelihood of
impulsive and hurtful actions.

371
00:17:05.337 --> 00:17:08.008
Then, if we put that together with

372
00:17:08.008 --> 00:17:10.974
the developmental characteristics
of children and youth,

373
00:17:10.974 --> 00:17:12.658
there's characteristics about them,

374
00:17:12.658 --> 00:17:14.323
that they are still growing.

375
00:17:14.323 --> 00:17:15.804
They still are dependent.

376
00:17:15.804 --> 00:17:17.127
And as they become more independent,

377
00:17:17.127 --> 00:17:18.546
they need to be inter-dependent.

378
00:17:18.546 --> 00:17:19.996
They need guidance.

379
00:17:19.996 --> 00:17:22.525
And then there's this internet world,

380
00:17:22.525 --> 00:17:24.210
and more and more with mobile world,

381
00:17:24.210 --> 00:17:26.599
that let's them have freedom and autonomy

382
00:17:26.599 --> 00:17:28.978
in a way that they're not
necessarily prepared for.

383
00:17:28.978 --> 00:17:30.663
And there's been this kind of myth

384
00:17:30.663 --> 00:17:32.752
that they're technologically adept.

385
00:17:32.752 --> 00:17:34.128
That's not a myth, that's true.

386
00:17:34.128 --> 00:17:36.251
But that doesn't mean
they're technologically able

387
00:17:36.251 --> 00:17:37.939
to deal with the technology.

388
00:17:38.969 --> 00:17:40.195
And I can't stress enough,

389
00:17:40.195 --> 00:17:42.104
the current generation
has never experienced

390
00:17:42.104 --> 00:17:43.427
a world without technology.

391
00:17:43.427 --> 00:17:45.005
And the reason that's important is,

392
00:17:45.005 --> 00:17:47.448
because adults often
say, "Oh, it's not real.

393
00:17:47.448 --> 00:17:48.546
They're not really talking.

394
00:17:48.546 --> 00:17:50.189
It's not the same as face to face."

395
00:17:50.189 --> 00:17:51.319
Somebody named Danah Boyd

396
00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:53.762
has written a lot of stuff on that saying,

397
00:17:53.762 --> 00:17:55.009
and I think it's really true,

398
00:17:55.009 --> 00:17:57.282
"We have to remember, it is real to them."

399
00:17:57.282 --> 00:18:00.247
As long as we think it's
not, there is a situation.

400
00:18:00.247 --> 00:18:01.868
At the University of Toronto, actually,

401
00:18:01.868 --> 00:18:04.129
a professor and I were having
a meeting with some students.

402
00:18:04.129 --> 00:18:05.655
And she had just come
out of a class with them.

403
00:18:05.655 --> 00:18:06.956
It was PhD students.

404
00:18:06.956 --> 00:18:08.353
And she said to them, you know,

405
00:18:08.353 --> 00:18:10.326
"I used to come into the class
to see you guys chatting.

406
00:18:10.326 --> 00:18:11.500
I came in today, nobody was talking,

407
00:18:11.500 --> 00:18:13.110
you were all on your iPhones."

408
00:18:13.110 --> 00:18:14.219
And so one of them said,

409
00:18:14.219 --> 00:18:16.321
"We were chatting, we were
chatting on our iPhones."

410
00:18:16.321 --> 00:18:17.856
And for them that's real.

411
00:18:17.856 --> 00:18:20.075
So, as adults, we have to remember that.

412
00:18:22.005 --> 00:18:24.360
So, I want to show an example of that.

413
00:18:24.360 --> 00:18:25.864
If I can get it work.

414
00:18:25.864 --> 00:18:29.719
(audience laughter)

415
00:18:31.271 --> 00:18:33.244
OK, this is a 12 month old baby.

416
00:18:37.134 --> 00:18:40.244
You can't hear her, but
she's squealing with delight.

417
00:18:43.673 --> 00:18:45.043
And she's...

418
00:18:45.647 --> 00:18:47.849
She's looking, she's
trying to turn the pages.

419
00:18:50.812 --> 00:18:54.084
(audience laughter)

420
00:19:04.462 --> 00:19:06.547
(giggles from audience)

421
00:19:10.903 --> 00:19:12.141
So she's like a little scientist.

422
00:19:12.141 --> 00:19:13.101
She checks out her finger.

423
00:19:13.101 --> 00:19:14.221
Watch her check out her finger.

424
00:19:14.221 --> 00:19:16.150
In the book, it's not working.

425
00:19:18.839 --> 00:19:20.028
- [Voiceover] Wow, that's fantastic.

426
00:19:20.028 --> 00:19:21.658
Then her leg, it's working.

427
00:19:21.658 --> 00:19:25.521
(eruption of audience laughter)

428
00:19:27.469 --> 00:19:29.282
And now she's starting
to sound very frustrated,

429
00:19:29.282 --> 00:19:31.474
making these frustrated noises.

430
00:19:31.474 --> 00:19:33.834
And now she's squealing
with delight again.

431
00:19:38.164 --> 00:19:40.602
So, nobody can say that's not real.

432
00:19:41.432 --> 00:19:42.561
"For my one year old daughter,

433
00:19:42.561 --> 00:19:44.225
an magazine is an iPad
that does not work,"

434
00:19:44.225 --> 00:19:45.121
this woman said,

435
00:19:45.121 --> 00:19:46.486
"It will remain so for her whole life.

436
00:19:46.486 --> 00:19:49.142
Steve Jobs has coded a part of her OS."

437
00:19:49.902 --> 00:19:52.180
So, that's the context
we have to be aware of.

438
00:19:52.180 --> 00:19:54.580
So, speaking of that, I
just have a few statistics.

439
00:19:54.580 --> 00:19:55.946
Just so we have some idea.

440
00:19:55.946 --> 00:19:58.196
And some of these are
like three years old,

441
00:19:58.196 --> 00:19:59.401
so they're already old.

442
00:19:59.401 --> 00:20:03.177
The Canadian youth, most of
them use cyber technology daily.

443
00:20:04.217 --> 00:20:06.130
There it says they use
e-mail, although now,

444
00:20:06.130 --> 00:20:07.858
e-mail's totally out for them.

445
00:20:08.618 --> 00:20:10.430
Same as in the states.

446
00:20:10.430 --> 00:20:12.784
Many of them, most of them, go on-line.

447
00:20:12.784 --> 00:20:15.013
And if these are even a year old,

448
00:20:15.013 --> 00:20:18.128
it means that it's much higher than that.

449
00:20:19.788 --> 00:20:20.729
A lot of them use,

450
00:20:20.729 --> 00:20:21.892
and that's really important too,

451
00:20:21.892 --> 00:20:23.353
a lot of them use mobile internet.

452
00:20:23.353 --> 00:20:26.020
So that's a game-changer, because it means

453
00:20:26.020 --> 00:20:29.411
they have access to the
internet on their mobiles.

454
00:20:32.861 --> 00:20:34.284
So again, just to stress

455
00:20:34.284 --> 00:20:36.140
that the context of the social media is,

456
00:20:38.350 --> 00:20:41.205
that the dramatic revolutionary
technological advances

457
00:20:41.205 --> 00:20:43.968
have forever changed how we all interact.

458
00:20:43.968 --> 00:20:46.206
It really has done that.

459
00:20:46.206 --> 00:20:48.341
And children and youth
are very sophisticated

460
00:20:48.341 --> 00:20:50.612
users of technology, on the one hand.

461
00:20:50.612 --> 00:20:52.543
Technologically, they're
very sophisticated.

462
00:20:52.543 --> 00:20:54.206
Because you can imagine,
by the time she's three,

463
00:20:54.206 --> 00:20:55.775
she's gonna be a little expert.

464
00:20:56.505 --> 00:20:57.789
And one of the issues is,

465
00:20:57.789 --> 00:21:00.242
youth acquire technological competence

466
00:21:00.242 --> 00:21:02.535
much faster than their
parents or teachers.

467
00:21:02.535 --> 00:21:03.388
And people are,

468
00:21:03.388 --> 00:21:05.202
you always hear adults talking about that.

469
00:21:05.202 --> 00:21:06.430
And I know even at school,

470
00:21:06.430 --> 00:21:08.393
if there's a young student
around, they'll have the answer.

471
00:21:08.393 --> 00:21:11.889
But that is one of the
things that makes it risky.

472
00:21:11.889 --> 00:21:14.367
Because the people who need the help

473
00:21:14.367 --> 00:21:16.201
know more, technologically,
than the people

474
00:21:16.201 --> 00:21:17.428
who have to help them.

475
00:21:17.428 --> 00:21:20.308
And it's also why the adults saying,

476
00:21:20.308 --> 00:21:21.261
"I'm not interested,

477
00:21:21.261 --> 00:21:23.255
it's not my generation,
I can't learn about it,"

478
00:21:23.255 --> 00:21:24.678
is really not an option.

479
00:21:24.678 --> 00:21:27.941
Because if we don't learn
about it, and understand it,

480
00:21:27.941 --> 00:21:29.264
we can't really help them.

481
00:21:29.264 --> 00:21:32.560
And kids know that, they
know the adults don't know.

482
00:21:32.560 --> 00:21:34.469
So they will not come to us.

483
00:21:39.459 --> 00:21:42.030
And teenagers share a tremendous amount

484
00:21:42.030 --> 00:21:43.651
of information on-line.

485
00:21:43.651 --> 00:21:47.512
And with the huge
proliferation of platforms,

486
00:21:47.512 --> 00:21:49.309
they share more and more.

487
00:21:49.309 --> 00:21:52.337
And it's important to
remember that privacy norms

488
00:21:52.337 --> 00:21:53.471
really vary by platform.

489
00:21:53.471 --> 00:21:55.732
So for example, you hear
a lot about Facebook.

490
00:21:55.732 --> 00:21:57.662
There's a lot of privacy settings.

491
00:21:57.662 --> 00:21:59.305
And yeah, a lot of teenagers use those.

492
00:21:59.305 --> 00:22:01.214
But for example, with Twitter they don't.

493
00:22:01.214 --> 00:22:04.467
So privacy is different
with each platform.

494
00:22:04.467 --> 00:22:07.660
And if there's 30 platforms,
we can't say it's the same.

495
00:22:08.360 --> 00:22:10.119
The other thing that we
have to remember though is,

496
00:22:10.119 --> 00:22:12.280
research shows they actually do seek help

497
00:22:12.280 --> 00:22:15.424
and advice from friends and
others about privacy norms.

498
00:22:15.424 --> 00:22:16.096
So that's...

499
00:22:16.096 --> 00:22:17.738
and privacy settings.

500
00:22:17.738 --> 00:22:19.424
So that's really critical.

501
00:22:20.084 --> 00:22:22.697
But the context of that is, the whole

502
00:22:22.697 --> 00:22:25.565
question of privacy is changing.

503
00:22:25.565 --> 00:22:27.517
So what does privacy mean?

504
00:22:27.517 --> 00:22:29.789
I don't think anybody really
has the answer anymore.

505
00:22:29.789 --> 00:22:33.849
Because it has changed, privacy,

506
00:22:35.209 --> 00:22:37.851
and the whole idea of boundaries.

507
00:22:39.131 --> 00:22:40.985
And as I said, the technology

508
00:22:40.985 --> 00:22:43.662
is increasingly mobile and diverse.

509
00:22:43.662 --> 00:22:45.934
And most adults have not
heard about a lot of them.

510
00:22:45.934 --> 00:22:48.398
And they, youth, spend
a great amount of time

511
00:22:48.398 --> 00:22:49.795
just managing their different

512
00:22:49.795 --> 00:22:53.209
on-line networks and reputations.

513
00:22:53.739 --> 00:22:55.203
So, take a look.

514
00:22:55.803 --> 00:22:56.594
Oops.

515
00:22:57.974 --> 00:23:02.974
So there's one example of
some of the many kinds of apps

516
00:23:03.457 --> 00:23:06.133
and networking that youth
will be involved in.

517
00:23:06.133 --> 00:23:07.456
And this won't even be all of it.

518
00:23:07.456 --> 00:23:09.882
The PhD student who sent me this said,

519
00:23:09.882 --> 00:23:11.978
that's like roughly half
of the amount that she has.

520
00:23:11.978 --> 00:23:14.616
And really, it's just second nature.

521
00:23:14.616 --> 00:23:16.216
And we need to be aware of that.

522
00:23:16.216 --> 00:23:17.805
Because this is a lot of managing,

523
00:23:17.805 --> 00:23:19.832
and it's all considered real.

524
00:23:23.592 --> 00:23:26.283
The other important context

525
00:23:26.283 --> 00:23:28.513
is that the cyber world
has a tremendous number

526
00:23:28.513 --> 00:23:31.094
of huge benefits for children and youth.

527
00:23:31.094 --> 00:23:33.963
We need to remember that,
especially when we hear negatives.

528
00:23:33.963 --> 00:23:35.632
Because it's very easy when we hear

529
00:23:35.632 --> 00:23:37.331
about tragedies or
negative things, to say,

530
00:23:37.331 --> 00:23:38.729
"You know what, it's just not good."

531
00:23:38.729 --> 00:23:41.449
But there are tremendous
benefits that are invaluable.

532
00:23:41.449 --> 00:23:43.625
So, there's unprecedented opportunities

533
00:23:43.625 --> 00:23:46.121
to have social support,
identity development,

534
00:23:46.121 --> 00:23:48.947
and learning that just
wasn't available before.

535
00:23:51.077 --> 00:23:52.295
Research has actually shown

536
00:23:52.295 --> 00:23:54.791
that most on-line interactions
are positive or neutral.

537
00:23:54.791 --> 00:23:57.799
And that many of them,
because it happens with youth

538
00:23:57.799 --> 00:23:59.687
in their face to face world,

539
00:23:59.687 --> 00:24:03.100
actually increases their
intimacy and their relationships.

540
00:24:03.100 --> 00:24:04.828
So it's a positive thing.

541
00:24:04.828 --> 00:24:05.966
And then for...

542
00:24:05.966 --> 00:24:07.653
Anybody who feels marginalized,

543
00:24:07.653 --> 00:24:09.934
it allows them an
opportunity to have a group

544
00:24:09.934 --> 00:24:12.495
that they might not be able
to have at school or at home.

545
00:24:12.495 --> 00:24:15.887
So for example, LGBTQ, chronic illness,

546
00:24:15.887 --> 00:24:17.476
somebody who has an invisible disability,

547
00:24:17.476 --> 00:24:19.524
somebody who lives in a remote area.

548
00:24:19.524 --> 00:24:21.561
And we cannot stress that enough.

549
00:24:21.561 --> 00:24:23.427
Because we know that if
you don't have somebody

550
00:24:23.427 --> 00:24:25.856
you can connect with or feel like,

551
00:24:25.856 --> 00:24:27.760
that that has huge detrimental effects

552
00:24:27.760 --> 00:24:29.040
on somebody's development.

553
00:24:29.040 --> 00:24:31.195
So the fact that they can
go on-line and have that,

554
00:24:31.195 --> 00:24:32.931
is absolutely invaluable.

555
00:24:32.931 --> 00:24:34.487
Then the problem, the paradox.

556
00:24:34.487 --> 00:24:36.084
Maybe not the problem, the dilemma is,

557
00:24:36.084 --> 00:24:37.876
the place that provides the safety

558
00:24:37.876 --> 00:24:40.384
also can be the place that provides risks.

559
00:24:40.384 --> 00:24:42.346
So it just means it's complicated though.

560
00:24:42.346 --> 00:24:43.861
Because we can't get rid of it,

561
00:24:43.861 --> 00:24:47.295
because those benefits
are incredibly valuable.

562
00:24:49.205 --> 00:24:51.462
So of course, some of the
risks that we do know about:

563
00:24:51.462 --> 00:24:53.213
sexual solicitation, harmful material.

564
00:24:53.893 --> 00:24:54.613
One...

565
00:24:55.003 --> 00:24:56.487
Some research has actually shown

566
00:24:56.487 --> 00:24:58.361
that it's not even a risk
that kids are going to

567
00:24:58.361 --> 00:24:59.748
be exposed to harmful material,

568
00:24:59.748 --> 00:25:00.964
that's it's a fact.

569
00:25:00.964 --> 00:25:03.098
That most of them have
already been exposed to it.

570
00:25:04.158 --> 00:25:06.570
And being exploited in relationships.

571
00:25:07.120 --> 00:25:09.708
And one of the features
about it is that it,

572
00:25:09.708 --> 00:25:12.474
and other forms of abuse
also can happen in this way,

573
00:25:12.474 --> 00:25:15.525
but is that, it often
happens when you're at home,

574
00:25:15.525 --> 00:25:17.092
feeling safe, where you should be safe.

575
00:25:17.092 --> 00:25:19.129
So that's one way that cyber-bullying

576
00:25:19.129 --> 00:25:20.590
is different than traditional bullying.

577
00:25:20.590 --> 00:25:23.779
With traditional bullying,
kids know to expect it.

578
00:25:23.779 --> 00:25:26.946
Not that it makes it easy,
but that is one difference.

579
00:25:30.176 --> 00:25:34.879
When cyber-bullying first
became kind of known,

580
00:25:34.879 --> 00:25:36.086
the big...

581
00:25:37.356 --> 00:25:40.841
Often the message was, a few tips.

582
00:25:40.841 --> 00:25:42.345
Basically, what parents should do

583
00:25:42.345 --> 00:25:45.086
in terms of giving their kids tips,

584
00:25:45.086 --> 00:25:47.412
and the fact that they
should monitor them.

585
00:25:47.412 --> 00:25:50.291
So, parents often struggle to monitor.

586
00:25:50.291 --> 00:25:51.913
Now, one of the issues is that,

587
00:25:51.913 --> 00:25:54.643
even with computers,
it was hard to monitor.

588
00:25:54.643 --> 00:25:59.475
But with mobile devices,
it's almost impossible

589
00:25:59.475 --> 00:26:01.318
to monitor in that kind of way.

590
00:26:01.318 --> 00:26:03.195
That doesn't mean
monitoring's not important.

591
00:26:03.195 --> 00:26:05.180
Because actually, it can
make a big difference.

592
00:26:05.180 --> 00:26:07.036
But we did need to recognize

593
00:26:07.036 --> 00:26:08.956
that it's a different kind of monitoring.

594
00:26:08.956 --> 00:26:11.569
And the other thing,
in terms of monitoring,

595
00:26:11.569 --> 00:26:13.094
again, I don't know how many people here

596
00:26:13.094 --> 00:26:13.948
would even know this,

597
00:26:13.948 --> 00:26:15.356
but one one of the things
I was introduced to

598
00:26:15.356 --> 00:26:17.339
awhile ago, was that there is an app.

599
00:26:17.339 --> 00:26:19.942
There are apps that actually
can hide your material.

600
00:26:19.942 --> 00:26:21.776
So a lot of kids can get that.

601
00:26:22.566 --> 00:26:25.325
So for example, there's an app
that looks like a calculator,

602
00:26:25.325 --> 00:26:27.235
there's an app that looks like a news app.

603
00:26:27.235 --> 00:26:29.976
And then when you open it,
when somebody's not around,

604
00:26:29.976 --> 00:26:31.096
it can keep everything.

605
00:26:31.096 --> 00:26:34.200
It actually can keep as much
memory as most smart phones.

606
00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:36.215
So the reason that's important is that,

607
00:26:36.215 --> 00:26:39.333
monitoring alone, there's
always technological ways

608
00:26:39.333 --> 00:26:40.930
to hide that.

609
00:26:43.820 --> 00:26:47.084
And I guess a feature of
the on-line world is that

610
00:26:47.084 --> 00:26:49.847
youth, young people, are
going to exercise autonomy

611
00:26:49.847 --> 00:26:52.558
regardless of the
regulating and monitoring.

612
00:26:52.558 --> 00:26:56.630
And that rather than just having tips,

613
00:26:56.630 --> 00:26:59.361
that means that adults
really need to get involved

614
00:26:59.361 --> 00:27:01.696
in preparing youth to
interact responsibly.

615
00:27:01.696 --> 00:27:04.074
They talked about digital responsibility

616
00:27:04.074 --> 00:27:06.880
and digital citizenship,
which is a new kind of issue,

617
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:08.952
because we didn't have it before.

618
00:27:08.952 --> 00:27:12.265
And also, we need to
be more open about it.

619
00:27:13.135 --> 00:27:15.311
And let there be room for mistakes.

620
00:27:15.311 --> 00:27:17.605
When, in some of the research
that I've done in the past,

621
00:27:17.605 --> 00:27:19.876
when were interviewing kids
in grade four and five,

622
00:27:19.876 --> 00:27:22.521
and they would be doing
something that was risky,

623
00:27:22.521 --> 00:27:23.577
and we'd ask them.

624
00:27:23.577 --> 00:27:24.394
At that point, actually, we thought

625
00:27:24.394 --> 00:27:25.938
they just didn't understand it was risky.

626
00:27:25.938 --> 00:27:27.080
What became very clear is

627
00:27:27.080 --> 00:27:28.323
they knew very well it was risky.

628
00:27:28.323 --> 00:27:29.800
Because their parents
had followed the rules.

629
00:27:29.800 --> 00:27:31.059
Their parents had told them,

630
00:27:31.059 --> 00:27:32.701
"Don't do this, don't do that."

631
00:27:32.701 --> 00:27:34.717
So the kids would say,
"I can't tell my parents,

632
00:27:34.717 --> 00:27:35.869
'cause they'll hate me.

633
00:27:35.869 --> 00:27:39.303
They told me not to do this,
they'll feel I'm disgusting."

634
00:27:39.303 --> 00:27:41.234
So for me, it's sort of,

635
00:27:41.234 --> 00:27:43.143
and I think for a lot
of people in the area,

636
00:27:44.123 --> 00:27:46.106
it's sort of like drinking and driving.

637
00:27:46.106 --> 00:27:48.431
When my generation, the message was,

638
00:27:48.431 --> 00:27:49.668
"Don't drink and drive."

639
00:27:49.668 --> 00:27:50.927
But that was the end of the story.

640
00:27:50.927 --> 00:27:53.039
So if somebody drank and they drove,

641
00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:54.949
it could be tragic.

642
00:27:54.949 --> 00:27:58.158
But then public service
announcements came out,

643
00:27:58.158 --> 00:27:59.481
and the message became,

644
00:27:59.481 --> 00:28:00.782
"Don't drink and drive."

645
00:28:00.782 --> 00:28:03.790
That's still the message,
but that if you do drink,

646
00:28:03.790 --> 00:28:04.729
phone your parents.

647
00:28:04.729 --> 00:28:06.158
And the message to the parents became,

648
00:28:06.158 --> 00:28:07.087
"Pick up your kids.

649
00:28:07.087 --> 00:28:09.319
Deal with safety first,
then deal with the others."

650
00:28:09.319 --> 00:28:10.333
We haven't really done that

651
00:28:10.333 --> 00:28:11.592
with the internet and the mobiles.

652
00:28:11.592 --> 00:28:12.732
And we really need to.

653
00:28:12.732 --> 00:28:14.962
Because with our kids,

654
00:28:14.962 --> 00:28:17.020
and research, again, shows
some kids are looking,

655
00:28:17.020 --> 00:28:18.887
you know, they end up
looking for it deliberately.

656
00:28:18.887 --> 00:28:20.945
Other times, they just
sort of run into trouble,

657
00:28:20.945 --> 00:28:23.398
not meaning to, and they don't
know how to get out of it.

658
00:28:23.398 --> 00:28:25.234
And so they need to get the message

659
00:28:25.234 --> 00:28:29.702
that they need to be able to
come to you with problems.

660
00:28:29.702 --> 00:28:30.911
To come to us.

661
00:28:30.911 --> 00:28:32.661
Now parents and teachers need help,

662
00:28:32.661 --> 00:28:33.825
and that's one of the places

663
00:28:33.825 --> 00:28:35.554
that I think social
workers really come in.

664
00:28:35.554 --> 00:28:37.815
To not just be reactive.

665
00:28:37.815 --> 00:28:38.807
And often people say,

666
00:28:38.807 --> 00:28:40.781
"Well, then that means I'm condoning it."

667
00:28:40.781 --> 00:28:42.178
that doesn't mean we're condoning it.

668
00:28:42.178 --> 00:28:43.639
It just just means that we're saying,

669
00:28:43.639 --> 00:28:45.473
"We want to help you problem-solve."

670
00:28:45.473 --> 00:28:46.977
And given that this is the world,

671
00:28:46.977 --> 00:28:48.761
this is something that
they really need to learn.

672
00:28:49.911 --> 00:28:51.251
So in terms of the definition,

673
00:28:51.251 --> 00:28:53.244
there really isn't a universal definition.

674
00:28:53.244 --> 00:28:55.196
And people are still struggling with that.

675
00:28:55.196 --> 00:28:57.597
But generally, it's considered to be

676
00:28:57.597 --> 00:29:00.178
the use of any information
communication technology

677
00:29:00.178 --> 00:29:02.226
to deliberately harm somebody.

678
00:29:02.226 --> 00:29:05.350
The criteria are that
the intent is to harm,

679
00:29:05.350 --> 00:29:07.772
and that there's a power imbalance.

680
00:29:07.772 --> 00:29:09.382
So even with traditional bullying,

681
00:29:09.382 --> 00:29:11.050
that could be hard sometimes to determine.

682
00:29:11.050 --> 00:29:13.287
With cyber-bullying, it
can be very difficult.

683
00:29:16.007 --> 00:29:17.594
And it's complex.

684
00:29:17.594 --> 00:29:19.442
So the questions we have to ask,

685
00:29:20.062 --> 00:29:21.791
When I go back to when I said before,

686
00:29:21.791 --> 00:29:24.574
that we didn't think a
lot about cyber-bullying.

687
00:29:24.574 --> 00:29:28.212
And people were more
aware of cyber-stalking,

688
00:29:28.212 --> 00:29:31.583
of adults being predators to kids.

689
00:29:31.583 --> 00:29:34.899
Now, often, everything gets
lumped into cyber-bullying,

690
00:29:34.899 --> 00:29:35.646
when it's not.

691
00:29:35.646 --> 00:29:36.635
So we need to, this is

692
00:29:36.635 --> 00:29:39.297
again, this is why I think social workers

693
00:29:39.297 --> 00:29:40.342
really need to be involved.

694
00:29:40.342 --> 00:29:41.581
Because that's the other
thing I wanted to mention.

695
00:29:41.581 --> 00:29:42.979
That in bullying and cyber-bullying,

696
00:29:42.979 --> 00:29:47.764
most of the people working
in it are people in education

697
00:29:47.764 --> 00:29:49.738
and psychology, very few social workers.

698
00:29:49.738 --> 00:29:52.137
And I do think it's area that
really needs social work,

699
00:29:52.137 --> 00:29:53.908
because it talks about the person

700
00:29:53.908 --> 00:29:57.054
and all the interactions at
all levels of their world.

701
00:29:57.054 --> 00:29:59.675
So we need to ask, "Who's involved?

702
00:29:59.675 --> 00:30:00.881
And how are they related?"

703
00:30:00.881 --> 00:30:01.895
So that's very important.

704
00:30:01.895 --> 00:30:03.281
Because often they're friends.

705
00:30:03.281 --> 00:30:06.620
And that's one of the big
surprises the research is showing.

706
00:30:06.620 --> 00:30:09.020
Because if it's a friend,
you react very differently.

707
00:30:09.020 --> 00:30:12.432
It's very hard to go
tell about your friend.

708
00:30:12.432 --> 00:30:14.565
Especially if you value their friendship,

709
00:30:14.565 --> 00:30:16.721
or if you want to be accepted.

710
00:30:17.791 --> 00:30:19.981
We need to know whether
adults are involved.

711
00:30:19.981 --> 00:30:22.765
There's examples in the states too,

712
00:30:22.765 --> 00:30:25.123
but in Canada, Amanda Todd.

713
00:30:25.123 --> 00:30:26.894
That's considered often

714
00:30:26.894 --> 00:30:30.499
as one of the huge
examples of cyber-bullying.

715
00:30:30.499 --> 00:30:33.784
But in fact , the man
who was alleged to have

716
00:30:33.784 --> 00:30:37.080
started getting her to take
off her clothes for him,

717
00:30:37.080 --> 00:30:38.968
and then blackmailing her,

718
00:30:38.968 --> 00:30:42.018
is an adult man in Europe.

719
00:30:42.018 --> 00:30:43.864
And he's been charged now.

720
00:30:43.864 --> 00:30:45.837
So he did blackmail her,

721
00:30:45.837 --> 00:30:48.674
and he did get her to
keep doing more and more.

722
00:30:48.674 --> 00:30:51.906
And finally, he did send
it to the classmates.

723
00:30:51.906 --> 00:30:54.828
And then, apparently,
there was cyber-bullying.

724
00:30:54.828 --> 00:30:56.033
But we need to remember then,

725
00:30:56.033 --> 00:30:58.711
that wasn't just a
situation of cyber-bullying.

726
00:30:58.711 --> 00:31:01.248
And not minimize the
cyber-bullying aspect,

727
00:31:01.248 --> 00:31:03.756
but we need to understand
the whole situation.

728
00:31:03.756 --> 00:31:05.697
And the other question we need to ask is,

729
00:31:05.697 --> 00:31:10.091
"Has an on-line or off-line
episode triggered it?"

730
00:31:10.091 --> 00:31:12.768
And we know that they often go together.

731
00:31:12.768 --> 00:31:15.862
And the other example I
think of, from Canada,

732
00:31:15.862 --> 00:31:17.867
is Rehtaeh Parsons, who is a girl

733
00:31:17.867 --> 00:31:19.915
who committed suicide as well.

734
00:31:19.915 --> 00:31:24.256
She had allegedly been raped
by some youth in her school,

735
00:31:24.256 --> 00:31:25.802
in her university,

736
00:31:25.802 --> 00:31:28.181
and had gone to the
police a couple of times,

737
00:31:28.181 --> 00:31:29.685
and nothing had happened.

738
00:31:29.685 --> 00:31:33.951
And then a cell picture, an
image of her, was sent around.

739
00:31:33.951 --> 00:31:35.498
And then she was cyber-bullied.

740
00:31:35.498 --> 00:31:38.442
So again, cyber-bullying
played a part in it,

741
00:31:38.442 --> 00:31:42.196
but if we think of it only as
a cyber-bullying situation,

742
00:31:42.196 --> 00:31:43.785
we're ignoring many other issues

743
00:31:43.785 --> 00:31:45.406
that are also very problematic.

744
00:31:45.406 --> 00:31:46.772
And I think that that's...

745
00:31:46.772 --> 00:31:49.044
So we need to understand
that it's very complex.

746
00:31:52.014 --> 00:31:55.172
So, because a lot of the
tragedies in the media

747
00:31:55.172 --> 00:31:58.489
are often presented as
simplistic and one-dimensional,

748
00:31:58.489 --> 00:32:01.741
and people often are worried
about making it more complex.

749
00:32:01.741 --> 00:32:03.949
Because there's a worry
that it'll look like you're

750
00:32:03.949 --> 00:32:07.522
blaming the victim or you're
condoning cyber-bullying,

751
00:32:07.522 --> 00:32:08.749
or you're minimizing it.

752
00:32:08.749 --> 00:32:10.349
But it really doesn't mean that at all.

753
00:32:11.679 --> 00:32:12.681
What it does mean is,

754
00:32:12.681 --> 00:32:15.945
we need to really encourage
dialogue and reflections.

755
00:32:15.945 --> 00:32:17.822
And what it does mean is that we need

756
00:32:17.822 --> 00:32:19.358
to understand that it's complex.

757
00:32:19.358 --> 00:32:20.382
So that's another place where

758
00:32:20.382 --> 00:32:21.641
I think that social workers are critical.

759
00:32:21.641 --> 00:32:22.675
That it's complex.

760
00:32:22.675 --> 00:32:24.680
There's often not a simple answer.

761
00:32:27.070 --> 00:32:28.412
And a bit about the prevalence.

762
00:32:28.412 --> 00:32:30.175
Even though we don't talk about

763
00:32:30.175 --> 00:32:32.311
traditional bullying so much anymore,

764
00:32:32.311 --> 00:32:34.199
the prevalence of traditional bullying

765
00:32:34.199 --> 00:32:35.383
is still considered higher.

766
00:32:35.383 --> 00:32:38.615
So, cyber-bullying tends
to be between 10-40%.

767
00:32:38.615 --> 00:32:41.441
And the variation is for many reasons,

768
00:32:41.441 --> 00:32:45.100
due to the samples, how it's
defined, the methodology.

769
00:32:45.100 --> 00:32:47.265
And also, as we'll talk a bit about later,

770
00:32:47.265 --> 00:32:49.995
kids often don't describe...

771
00:32:49.995 --> 00:32:53.611
What adults think is
cyber-bullying, kids often don't.

772
00:32:53.611 --> 00:32:55.371
They don't describe it as that.

773
00:32:55.371 --> 00:32:56.374
So if you ask ask them,

774
00:32:56.374 --> 00:32:58.464
and in the interviews
that we did, actually,

775
00:32:58.464 --> 00:32:59.947
when I was first listening to them,

776
00:32:59.947 --> 00:33:01.003
I thought we'd get nothing.

777
00:33:01.003 --> 00:33:03.115
Because the research assisstant would say,

778
00:33:03.115 --> 00:33:04.262
"Have you ever been cyber-bullying?"

779
00:33:04.262 --> 00:33:05.034
And the kid would say,

780
00:33:05.034 --> 00:33:06.150
"No, I haven't been cyber-bullying.

781
00:33:06.150 --> 00:33:07.323
I've never been involved."

782
00:33:07.323 --> 00:33:08.731
And I thought, "OK, well..."

783
00:33:08.731 --> 00:33:09.883
But then, ten minutes later,

784
00:33:09.883 --> 00:33:11.131
they start describing an incident

785
00:33:11.131 --> 00:33:12.614
that they don't think is cyber-bullying,

786
00:33:12.614 --> 00:33:15.127
but it totally fits our definition.

787
00:33:15.127 --> 00:33:17.675
But we need to realize that
there's not one definition then.

788
00:33:17.675 --> 00:33:20.466
You know, if we're going to
work with kids and help them,

789
00:33:20.466 --> 00:33:22.782
we need to be aware of their definitions.

790
00:33:24.132 --> 00:33:26.299
And of course, there's risk
and protective factors,

791
00:33:26.299 --> 00:33:27.055
like in anything.

792
00:33:27.055 --> 00:33:28.868
And the risk factors really are,

793
00:33:28.868 --> 00:33:31.299
it's association with off-line bullying.

794
00:33:31.299 --> 00:33:34.959
Kids who are vulnerable
off-line are vulnerable on-line.

795
00:33:34.959 --> 00:33:36.569
And vice versa.

796
00:33:36.569 --> 00:33:38.776
And protective factors,
again, is not a surprise.

797
00:33:38.776 --> 00:33:41.060
School safety and climate, that's huge.

798
00:33:41.060 --> 00:33:43.108
That's a huge protective factor.

799
00:33:43.108 --> 00:33:44.696
And that's of course complicated,

800
00:33:44.696 --> 00:33:47.821
because that takes
commitment and resources.

801
00:33:47.821 --> 00:33:49.326
And it's not easy to do.

802
00:33:49.326 --> 00:33:51.118
And parental monitoring,

803
00:33:51.118 --> 00:33:54.051
and that's the full monitoring,
with the conversation.

804
00:33:55.801 --> 00:33:58.339
The other paradox about
bullying and cyber-bullying

805
00:33:58.339 --> 00:34:01.197
is that for awhile, it wasn't
on anybody's radar screen.

806
00:34:01.197 --> 00:34:03.320
So it was often not taken seriously.

807
00:34:03.320 --> 00:34:05.304
You know, it was just, "Oh,
that's kids being kids."

808
00:34:05.304 --> 00:34:08.460
So the good news is that
we now take it seriously.

809
00:34:08.460 --> 00:34:11.425
But what happens, and some
people have written about this,

810
00:34:11.425 --> 00:34:12.587
and I think it's very important,

811
00:34:12.587 --> 00:34:15.369
is that if you call
everything 'cyber-bullying',

812
00:34:16.869 --> 00:34:19.978
and we don't pull out
things like the bias-based

813
00:34:19.978 --> 00:34:22.912
or the discrimination, we
actually can't address the issue.

814
00:34:22.912 --> 00:34:27.242
Because we can't ignore what
the underlying motivations are.

815
00:34:27.242 --> 00:34:28.586
And that's actually one of the things

816
00:34:28.586 --> 00:34:29.641
my current study's looking at.

817
00:34:29.641 --> 00:34:30.995
We're trying to try to kind of get a sense

818
00:34:30.995 --> 00:34:32.447
of the underlying motivations.

819
00:34:32.447 --> 00:34:34.623
So bias-based cyber-bullying would be

820
00:34:34.623 --> 00:34:37.053
hate inspired cyber-bullying based on

821
00:34:37.053 --> 00:34:39.796
actual or perceived social identities.

822
00:34:39.796 --> 00:34:43.859
And it's based on societal
discrimination and inequity.

823
00:34:43.859 --> 00:34:47.293
So again, it says why it's
not just about the child.

824
00:34:47.293 --> 00:34:50.503
Children and youth come with
their own vulnerabilities,

825
00:34:50.503 --> 00:34:51.602
their own issues.

826
00:34:51.602 --> 00:34:54.269
But it's taking place in
the context of society.

827
00:34:54.269 --> 00:34:56.519
So, the conditions that foster bullying

828
00:34:56.519 --> 00:34:59.080
and marginalized youth
appear across all levels

829
00:34:59.080 --> 00:35:03.036
of the social ecology,
including the cyber level.

830
00:35:03.986 --> 00:35:05.809
So we need to be aware of that.

831
00:35:06.989 --> 00:35:09.147
And I can't stress enough
that cyber-bullying

832
00:35:09.147 --> 00:35:11.282
occurs in the context of relationships.

833
00:35:11.282 --> 00:35:13.187
It's not the technology.

834
00:35:14.419 --> 00:35:16.504
And also, as with traditional bullying,

835
00:35:16.504 --> 00:35:18.979
it tends to take place in
the presence of witnesses,

836
00:35:18.979 --> 00:35:20.792
who play key roles.

837
00:35:20.792 --> 00:35:22.956
And in the cyber world,

838
00:35:22.956 --> 00:35:25.560
it can be easy to become a participant,

839
00:35:25.560 --> 00:35:27.329
because it seems like it's,

840
00:35:27.329 --> 00:35:28.994
you're not going to be known.

841
00:35:28.994 --> 00:35:32.178
They other thing that's
important about witnesses

842
00:35:32.178 --> 00:35:34.531
is that there's different roles they take.

843
00:35:34.531 --> 00:35:37.679
But in the cyber world,
because you can't see faces,

844
00:35:37.679 --> 00:35:39.981
there's been some articles that have said

845
00:35:39.981 --> 00:35:42.157
that if a child has
been has cyber-bullied,

846
00:35:42.157 --> 00:35:44.653
has nobody, nobody's
coming to their defense

847
00:35:44.653 --> 00:35:46.178
in the cyber world,

848
00:35:46.178 --> 00:35:48.845
they assume that those other kids,

849
00:35:48.845 --> 00:35:50.039
or the other witnesses,

850
00:35:50.039 --> 00:35:52.621
agree with the bully or the perpetrator.

851
00:35:52.621 --> 00:35:54.124
And that's really important.

852
00:35:54.124 --> 00:35:57.490
It's the silence, really
does say something.

853
00:35:59.800 --> 00:36:00.712
So then,

854
00:36:00.712 --> 00:36:02.983
I think this really does highlight it.

855
00:36:02.983 --> 00:36:04.509
Because one of the things we know is that

856
00:36:04.509 --> 00:36:07.367
kids do not report bullying.

857
00:36:07.367 --> 00:36:08.824
They don't report bullying,

858
00:36:08.824 --> 00:36:11.940
and they don't report
cyber-bullying for many reasons.

859
00:36:11.940 --> 00:36:13.582
And the reason I think that's critical,

860
00:36:13.582 --> 00:36:15.331
is I don't think that's
a problem of the kids.

861
00:36:15.331 --> 00:36:17.985
I think it's a problem
of the world and adults.

862
00:36:17.990 --> 00:36:20.614
We need to help them find a
way to be able to talk to us.

863
00:36:21.224 --> 00:36:22.978
So, and I, in the research I have done,

864
00:36:22.978 --> 00:36:25.314
both with traditional bullying
and now with cyber-bullying,

865
00:36:25.314 --> 00:36:26.999
we really find that youth don't disclose,

866
00:36:26.999 --> 00:36:29.740
although they're very willing
to disclose to researchers

867
00:36:29.740 --> 00:36:32.908
who ask and who they feel
are not part of their world.

868
00:36:32.908 --> 00:36:34.412
And what they talk about is,

869
00:36:34.412 --> 00:36:37.131
they often don't disclose until they feel

870
00:36:37.131 --> 00:36:39.467
a situation feels unbearable.

871
00:36:39.467 --> 00:36:41.828
And the reason that's a concern is because

872
00:36:41.828 --> 00:36:43.940
they're delaying accessing the help

873
00:36:43.940 --> 00:36:45.357
and supports that they need.

874
00:36:45.357 --> 00:36:46.372
And often, therefore,

875
00:36:46.372 --> 00:36:49.582
by the time they actually
go for help, it's late.

876
00:36:49.582 --> 00:36:51.674
And we know the tragic situations,

877
00:36:51.674 --> 00:36:53.502
the suicides, it's too late.

878
00:36:53.502 --> 00:36:56.149
But other times, it's late.

879
00:36:57.319 --> 00:36:59.850
And other times, they do
go or they show clues,

880
00:36:59.850 --> 00:37:01.214
and we just don't notice it.

881
00:37:01.214 --> 00:37:02.655
So one of the big questions is,

882
00:37:02.655 --> 00:37:04.383
"What inhibits disclosure?"

883
00:37:04.383 --> 00:37:05.460
Well, one of the things,

884
00:37:05.460 --> 00:37:06.943
the big, number one thing,

885
00:37:06.943 --> 00:37:09.396
is fear of losing access to technology.

886
00:37:09.396 --> 00:37:12.872
I've had kids in grade four
and five so eloquently say,

887
00:37:12.872 --> 00:37:16.243
they know their parents have
the best interests in mind,

888
00:37:16.243 --> 00:37:18.217
they know they think they're
doing the right thing.

889
00:37:18.217 --> 00:37:21.182
But they can't bear the idea
of losing their technology.

890
00:37:21.182 --> 00:37:24.840
So they would rather risk
the harm that may happen,

891
00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:26.536
then to losing that access.

892
00:37:26.536 --> 00:37:28.284
Because the access isn't to technology,

893
00:37:28.284 --> 00:37:29.565
it's to their relationships.

894
00:37:29.565 --> 00:37:30.866
And that's why we have to remember that

895
00:37:30.866 --> 00:37:32.637
it's not a computer,
it's not a cell phone,

896
00:37:32.637 --> 00:37:34.770
it's their contact with the world.

897
00:37:35.520 --> 00:37:37.074
And they don't want to make a big deal.

898
00:37:37.074 --> 00:37:39.002
That's a really big thing.

899
00:37:40.122 --> 00:37:42.138
And sometimes when they don't
want to make a big deal,

900
00:37:42.138 --> 00:37:44.986
they talk about parents and families

901
00:37:44.986 --> 00:37:46.149
that are already burdened,

902
00:37:46.149 --> 00:37:47.880
and they don't want to add to that.

903
00:37:48.830 --> 00:37:51.351
And as I said, they often
don't call it cyber-bullying.

904
00:37:51.351 --> 00:37:53.677
So boys often call it 'trash talk',

905
00:37:53.677 --> 00:37:55.500
and girls often call it 'drama'.

906
00:37:55.500 --> 00:37:57.986
And Danah Boyd has written
a very interesting book,

907
00:37:57.986 --> 00:37:59.362
and some work on that.

908
00:37:59.362 --> 00:38:00.749
But they often do call it drama.

909
00:38:00.749 --> 00:38:01.878
And we're finding the same thing.

910
00:38:01.878 --> 00:38:02.679
Kids in grade four.

911
00:38:02.679 --> 00:38:03.917
So they haven't read Danah books

912
00:38:03.917 --> 00:38:05.149
or anybody else's work,

913
00:38:05.149 --> 00:38:06.813
and they say it's drama.

914
00:38:08.773 --> 00:38:10.939
And the Code of Silence is huge.

915
00:38:10.939 --> 00:38:13.855
That, the Code of Silence...

916
00:38:13.855 --> 00:38:15.807
And there's actually some work done

917
00:38:15.807 --> 00:38:18.201
on the point of the Code of Silence.

918
00:38:18.201 --> 00:38:19.641
that if you are...

919
00:38:19.641 --> 00:38:22.200
That's, you know, your child or a youth,

920
00:38:22.200 --> 00:38:24.216
you want to be popular,
you want to be cool.

921
00:38:24.216 --> 00:38:26.509
And so you're not going to say anything.

922
00:38:26.509 --> 00:38:28.099
Because if you don't agree with it,

923
00:38:28.099 --> 00:38:29.091
but the dominant ones...

924
00:38:29.091 --> 00:38:31.267
And we know, there used to be a method.

925
00:38:31.267 --> 00:38:32.930
The people who were the perpetrators

926
00:38:32.930 --> 00:38:35.694
were very problemed,
had a lot of problems.

927
00:38:35.694 --> 00:38:37.399
They had low self-esteem.

928
00:38:37.399 --> 00:38:39.693
And some of them do,
but a lot of them don't.

929
00:38:39.693 --> 00:38:43.415
So we need to, again,
be aware of stereotypes.

930
00:38:43.415 --> 00:38:46.625
But that makes it harder
for youth to say something.

931
00:38:47.265 --> 00:38:49.096
And fear of retaliation is a big one.

932
00:38:49.096 --> 00:38:50.857
And it's another thing
that adults need to know.

933
00:38:50.857 --> 00:38:52.607
Because often, we say to kids,

934
00:38:53.537 --> 00:38:55.699
"Tell, and somebody will help you."

935
00:38:55.699 --> 00:38:57.522
And again, young kids will say,

936
00:38:57.522 --> 00:38:58.983
"Well, they think it'll help.

937
00:38:58.983 --> 00:39:01.255
They don't understand
there'll be retaliation."

938
00:39:01.255 --> 00:39:03.453
And they're often right, there will be.

939
00:39:03.453 --> 00:39:04.893
So again, I'm talking to an audience

940
00:39:04.893 --> 00:39:06.951
that understands the
importance of validation.

941
00:39:06.951 --> 00:39:10.300
So these kids, they know, and
they need that validation.

942
00:39:11.990 --> 00:39:13.308
And a big one that actually

943
00:39:13.308 --> 00:39:15.515
isn't talked a lot about is shame.

944
00:39:15.515 --> 00:39:16.817
The shame of being a victim.

945
00:39:16.817 --> 00:39:17.851
Sometimes people say,

946
00:39:17.851 --> 00:39:20.156
"Will people tell you that
they've been a bully?"

947
00:39:20.156 --> 00:39:21.712
And I think in many ways,

948
00:39:21.712 --> 00:39:23.323
it's harder to say you've been a victim.

949
00:39:23.323 --> 00:39:25.030
Because of the shame and humiliation.

950
00:39:25.030 --> 00:39:26.405
And the sense that,

951
00:39:26.405 --> 00:39:28.625
actually, and I remember
when I came back from Smith,

952
00:39:28.625 --> 00:39:31.344
and we ran this camp, a therapeutic camp.

953
00:39:31.344 --> 00:39:32.848
So one of the first things I did

954
00:39:32.848 --> 00:39:34.010
in the groups of the camp is,

955
00:39:34.010 --> 00:39:37.317
I asked kids about had
they experienced bullying.

956
00:39:37.317 --> 00:39:38.330
And can they...

957
00:39:38.330 --> 00:39:39.719
So some of their answers were,

958
00:39:39.719 --> 00:39:41.772
"Well, I get used to it, it's not so bad."

959
00:39:42.692 --> 00:39:44.335
But other kids would just say things like,

960
00:39:44.335 --> 00:39:46.511
I remember one kid poignantly saying,

961
00:39:46.511 --> 00:39:48.036
but she just said it
matter-of-factly, she said,

962
00:39:48.036 --> 00:39:49.636
"Look, when you first
meet me, you'll like me.

963
00:39:49.636 --> 00:39:51.246
But then I get very irritating, annoying.

964
00:39:51.246 --> 00:39:52.526
And then you'll bully me."

965
00:39:52.526 --> 00:39:54.084
And so they feel like they're,

966
00:39:54.084 --> 00:39:55.533
and other kids will call themselves,

967
00:39:55.533 --> 00:39:57.273
like, "I'm the kid to be bullied."

968
00:39:57.273 --> 00:40:00.120
So it's a deep sense of
shame and humiliation.

969
00:40:00.120 --> 00:40:02.807
And we know it's very
hard to talk about that.

970
00:40:04.147 --> 00:40:07.095
And importantly, they
don't feel adults can help.

971
00:40:07.095 --> 00:40:08.600
And again, they often say,

972
00:40:08.600 --> 00:40:10.573
they get it, they know
that adults want to help,

973
00:40:10.573 --> 00:40:11.810
but they don't feel they can.

974
00:40:12.710 --> 00:40:15.521
And then if they have disclosed,
we have to be careful too.

975
00:40:15.521 --> 00:40:18.349
Because often, kids disclose,

976
00:40:18.349 --> 00:40:20.642
and they're more traumatized,
or as traumatized,

977
00:40:20.642 --> 00:40:22.348
because the adults don't believe them.

978
00:40:22.348 --> 00:40:24.566
Or they think they have the right answer.

979
00:40:24.566 --> 00:40:26.656
Or they think they contributed somehow.

980
00:40:26.656 --> 00:40:28.183
And that's important because often,

981
00:40:28.183 --> 00:40:30.924
we do know kids who get
bullied in a chronic way,

982
00:40:30.924 --> 00:40:33.493
are contributing in the sense of

983
00:40:33.493 --> 00:40:36.053
they have a problem, but they're
not doing it deliberately.

984
00:40:36.053 --> 00:40:37.920
And if that's the first message they get,

985
00:40:37.920 --> 00:40:39.691
Again, that's further shaming.

986
00:40:39.691 --> 00:40:41.632
So, and the other thing is,

987
00:40:41.632 --> 00:40:44.076
really important not to
promise positive outcomes.

988
00:40:44.076 --> 00:40:46.413
We often say, "Just go tell an adult."

989
00:40:46.413 --> 00:40:49.078
And rather, and so, if they tell an adult

990
00:40:49.078 --> 00:40:51.062
and they don't get help,
they feel betrayed.

991
00:40:51.062 --> 00:40:53.504
So rather, we need to say, "Tell an adult,

992
00:40:53.504 --> 00:40:55.254
and if that adult doesn't help you,

993
00:40:55.254 --> 00:40:56.311
go to another adult."

994
00:40:56.311 --> 00:40:57.388
Because the message there is,

995
00:40:57.388 --> 00:40:59.233
"They might not, but keep searching."

996
00:40:59.233 --> 00:41:02.081
And one, I think everybody's
probably heard of

997
00:41:02.081 --> 00:41:05.451
the It Gets Better Campaign by Savage.

998
00:41:05.451 --> 00:41:07.701
It was all over TV.

999
00:41:07.701 --> 00:41:09.407
And there's a bit of research on it.

1000
00:41:09.407 --> 00:41:10.837
Because I remember when I first saw it,

1001
00:41:10.837 --> 00:41:12.661
I thought intuitively, I didn't like it.

1002
00:41:12.661 --> 00:41:15.124
Because the implication
is, "It will get better."

1003
00:41:15.124 --> 00:41:17.035
Number one, it doesn't always get better.

1004
00:41:17.035 --> 00:41:19.189
That's the thing, it
doesn't always get better.

1005
00:41:19.189 --> 00:41:22.409
And this is an adult
man telling young kids,

1006
00:41:22.409 --> 00:41:24.222
"It will get better, just wait."

1007
00:41:24.222 --> 00:41:25.994
But if you're 12 years old,
how are you going to wait

1008
00:41:25.994 --> 00:41:27.230
for 10 years for it to get better,

1009
00:41:27.230 --> 00:41:28.958
when it's going to happen in the meantime.

1010
00:41:28.958 --> 00:41:32.180
And the other thing is,
some kids did take a risk,

1011
00:41:32.180 --> 00:41:34.836
and they did go tell
somebody that they were gay.

1012
00:41:34.836 --> 00:41:36.319
And they shouldn't have.

1013
00:41:36.319 --> 00:41:37.545
They were not safe.

1014
00:41:37.545 --> 00:41:42.045
So, their initial hesitance
was very well grounded.

1015
00:41:42.045 --> 00:41:45.096
So we need to be really
careful in what we promise.

1016
00:41:45.096 --> 00:41:46.845
And rather, we need to be helping,

1017
00:41:46.845 --> 00:41:49.832
giving different options
and giving strategies.

1018
00:41:52.042 --> 00:41:53.598
And this is nothing new,

1019
00:41:53.598 --> 00:41:55.528
that the mental health, that one boy,

1020
00:41:55.528 --> 00:41:56.786
this is not in my study,

1021
00:41:56.786 --> 00:41:58.940
but I found it very heartbreaking,

1022
00:41:58.940 --> 00:42:01.821
"Like a thousand paper-cuts
eating away at your soul."

1023
00:42:01.821 --> 00:42:03.570
The reason I think that's
relevant is because

1024
00:42:03.570 --> 00:42:06.823
often, when it's quote, "minor bullying,"

1025
00:42:06.823 --> 00:42:08.327
we say, quote, "minor bullying."

1026
00:42:08.327 --> 00:42:09.477
we say, "Oh, it's not a big deal."

1027
00:42:09.477 --> 00:42:10.898
But again, a thousand paper-cuts.

1028
00:42:10.898 --> 00:42:12.520
We know one paper-cut's not a big deal,

1029
00:42:12.520 --> 00:42:15.337
but a thousand paper-cuts,
it's very harmful.

1030
00:42:15.337 --> 00:42:17.741
So we know it can be devastating.

1031
00:42:17.741 --> 00:42:19.933
And we know it's a huge concern.

1032
00:42:20.743 --> 00:42:23.604
And it can affect many
areas of a child's life.

1033
00:42:24.074 --> 00:42:25.289
In terms of the impact,

1034
00:42:25.289 --> 00:42:28.739
and a lot of research has shown
it really does have impact,

1035
00:42:28.739 --> 00:42:33.047
for victims: sad,
anxiety, fear, aggression.

1036
00:42:33.047 --> 00:42:35.918
And it can really become pervasive.

1037
00:42:35.918 --> 00:42:39.469
Depression, suicidal ideation,
and of course, suicide.

1038
00:42:39.469 --> 00:42:42.049
And I think it's important
that it's not causal,

1039
00:42:42.049 --> 00:42:43.287
that it can be associated.

1040
00:42:43.287 --> 00:42:45.613
And it can be one of the
very important factors.

1041
00:42:46.193 --> 00:42:48.437
One of the big problems
is academic difficulties

1042
00:42:48.437 --> 00:42:51.584
and school avoidance, and
difficulty concentrating.

1043
00:42:51.584 --> 00:42:53.492
And of course, that's important
because that's going to

1044
00:42:53.492 --> 00:42:55.495
affect them as they go into adulthood.

1045
00:42:55.495 --> 00:42:58.012
And they can often have
social difficulties.

1046
00:42:58.012 --> 00:43:00.285
And avoid social situations.

1047
00:43:00.285 --> 00:43:03.698
And substance use, unsafe sexual behavior,

1048
00:43:03.698 --> 00:43:05.085
and physical health issues.

1049
00:43:05.085 --> 00:43:07.335
Stomach aches, headaches, is very common.

1050
00:43:07.335 --> 00:43:09.959
And the perpetrators also are at risk

1051
00:43:09.959 --> 00:43:12.678
of having low self-esteem and depression.

1052
00:43:12.678 --> 00:43:15.282
And again, we don't know what comes first.

1053
00:43:15.282 --> 00:43:17.713
And substance use and delinquency.

1054
00:43:19.313 --> 00:43:23.108
And kids who are victimized
are also more likely

1055
00:43:23.108 --> 00:43:25.370
to be perpetrators, and vice versa.

1056
00:43:25.370 --> 00:43:27.097
And that's more-so with cyber-bullying.

1057
00:43:27.097 --> 00:43:29.413
With traditional bullying,
there tended to be three groups:

1058
00:43:29.413 --> 00:43:32.431
The kids who were victims,
who were perpetrators,

1059
00:43:32.431 --> 00:43:33.924
and who did both.

1060
00:43:33.924 --> 00:43:36.356
And the ones who did both
were the most vulnerable,

1061
00:43:36.356 --> 00:43:37.721
most problematic kids.

1062
00:43:37.721 --> 00:43:39.075
And cyber-bullying, it's different.

1063
00:43:39.075 --> 00:43:40.484
And we found that in our research,

1064
00:43:40.484 --> 00:43:42.009
and others are finding the same.

1065
00:43:42.009 --> 00:43:44.046
That it's much more of a back-and-forth.

1066
00:43:44.046 --> 00:43:45.891
And it becomes, again, harder then,

1067
00:43:45.891 --> 00:43:47.481
to determine what it is.

1068
00:43:47.481 --> 00:43:48.835
But we need to understand that,

1069
00:43:48.835 --> 00:43:50.648
and find out what that does mean.

1070
00:43:53.848 --> 00:43:55.672
And the other thing
about cyber-bullying is,

1071
00:43:55.672 --> 00:43:57.176
it can be more frightening.

1072
00:43:57.176 --> 00:44:00.249
Because it's hard to escape.

1073
00:44:01.109 --> 00:44:01.809
And...

1074
00:44:02.289 --> 00:44:04.883
And you don't know, if they
don't know who's saying it.

1075
00:44:04.883 --> 00:44:07.912
Traditional bullying is
humiliating and scary enough.

1076
00:44:07.912 --> 00:44:09.704
And that's even with a couple kids,

1077
00:44:09.704 --> 00:44:11.410
or a classroom or a school.

1078
00:44:11.410 --> 00:44:14.397
But cyber-bullying, the idea
of not knowing who's out there.

1079
00:44:14.397 --> 00:44:16.807
And some kids will even
say it could be millions.

1080
00:44:16.807 --> 00:44:20.018
And even if they think it's
millions, even if it's not,

1081
00:44:20.018 --> 00:44:21.426
that's what's scary.

1082
00:44:23.556 --> 00:44:26.973
And the hard thing, we
can't emphasize enough,

1083
00:44:26.973 --> 00:44:28.554
how they cannot escape it.

1084
00:44:28.554 --> 00:44:30.271
Because their on-line world is critical,

1085
00:44:30.271 --> 00:44:34.164
so we can't tell them to turn it off.

1086
00:44:34.164 --> 00:44:36.586
Because they can't turn off their world.

1087
00:44:40.746 --> 00:44:43.798
And the other last point
that's important is that

1088
00:44:43.798 --> 00:44:46.221
some studies have shown
that it can affect,

1089
00:44:46.221 --> 00:44:48.301
can cause kids to be more depressed.

1090
00:44:48.301 --> 00:44:50.894
Above and beyond traditional bullying.

1091
00:44:53.524 --> 00:44:55.308
And some of the effects of cyber-bullying,

1092
00:44:55.308 --> 00:44:57.571
although we often talk about
the effects on the victims,

1093
00:44:57.571 --> 00:45:01.441
but kids who bully other often
are much more significantly

1094
00:45:01.441 --> 00:45:04.566
likely to use substance, substances.

1095
00:45:04.566 --> 00:45:06.785
And to exhibit rule-breaking behaviors,

1096
00:45:06.785 --> 00:45:08.470
aggression, get into trouble.

1097
00:45:08.470 --> 00:45:11.169
And of course, that affects
their future trajectory.

1098
00:45:11.169 --> 00:45:14.198
And again, we don't know what's
causing, which is causal.

1099
00:45:14.198 --> 00:45:15.382
We have to find that out.

1100
00:45:15.382 --> 00:45:16.950
And it's important too,

1101
00:45:16.950 --> 00:45:19.446
because it changes with age for both.

1102
00:45:19.446 --> 00:45:22.379
So the aggressor, when they're younger,

1103
00:45:22.379 --> 00:45:26.752
might become aggressive in
dating, sexual harassment,

1104
00:45:26.752 --> 00:45:28.864
work harassment, criminality.

1105
00:45:28.864 --> 00:45:30.324
And the kids who are victimized,

1106
00:45:30.324 --> 00:45:31.721
we need to remember that too,

1107
00:45:31.721 --> 00:45:33.287
if they don't get the help they need

1108
00:45:33.287 --> 00:45:34.401
and don't get the message that they need,

1109
00:45:34.401 --> 00:45:37.454
they might be more likely to
be victims later with that too.

1110
00:45:38.224 --> 00:45:39.913
And bit a about shame and humiliation.

1111
00:45:39.913 --> 00:45:41.994
There's very little on
that and that's critical.

1112
00:45:41.994 --> 00:45:44.064
Because I really do
think that's a big piece.

1113
00:45:44.064 --> 00:45:46.378
And we know that humiliation can be

1114
00:45:46.378 --> 00:45:48.980
associated with devastating consequences.

1115
00:45:48.980 --> 00:45:51.273
And it can increase thoughts
of self-annihilation.

1116
00:45:51.273 --> 00:45:53.609
And the thing about the internet is,

1117
00:45:53.609 --> 00:45:55.710
on/off in kids, a lot of...

1118
00:45:55.710 --> 00:45:57.758
I have found this, and there's
a lot written about it,

1119
00:45:57.758 --> 00:46:00.179
That kids will automatically,

1120
00:46:00.179 --> 00:46:02.493
when they turn on their
computer or their cell phone,

1121
00:46:02.493 --> 00:46:04.315
will automatically go looking for

1122
00:46:04.315 --> 00:46:06.749
what that horrible thing was about them.

1123
00:46:06.749 --> 00:46:09.064
They just want to see if it's out there.

1124
00:46:09.064 --> 00:46:10.504
And of course, it is out there.

1125
00:46:10.504 --> 00:46:12.274
And one of the police that I work with

1126
00:46:12.274 --> 00:46:14.547
said that that's the number one request,

1127
00:46:14.547 --> 00:46:15.974
and he said that's more than a request,

1128
00:46:15.974 --> 00:46:18.566
that parents and kids
beg them to take it off.

1129
00:46:18.566 --> 00:46:20.410
So the problem is, they
can try to take it off,

1130
00:46:20.410 --> 00:46:23.344
but it can't be taken off
because somebody else has it.

1131
00:46:25.764 --> 00:46:27.706
And we need to remember
that the cyber world

1132
00:46:27.706 --> 00:46:30.608
can intensify the shame and humiliation.

1133
00:46:30.608 --> 00:46:32.688
And it can make that feel unbearable.

1134
00:46:34.878 --> 00:46:37.583
And that...

1135
00:46:37.583 --> 00:46:42.020
I guess I can't stress
enough that then when kids

1136
00:46:42.020 --> 00:46:44.675
do come to adults, or adults find out

1137
00:46:44.675 --> 00:46:46.692
even if kids didn't tell them,

1138
00:46:46.692 --> 00:46:49.817
the adult's response is
critically important.

1139
00:46:49.817 --> 00:46:51.502
And that's another place where I think

1140
00:46:51.502 --> 00:46:53.400
social workers are really,
you know, important.

1141
00:46:53.400 --> 00:46:56.855
Because we understand the
importance of validation,

1142
00:46:56.855 --> 00:46:59.470
working with a child,
and where they're at.

1143
00:47:01.000 --> 00:47:02.562
In terms of if there is trauma,

1144
00:47:02.562 --> 00:47:05.750
not all bullying is related
to, feels traumatic,

1145
00:47:05.750 --> 00:47:06.955
but it can.

1146
00:47:06.955 --> 00:47:08.128
There's three different kinds.

1147
00:47:08.128 --> 00:47:10.145
There's the actual behaviors

1148
00:47:10.145 --> 00:47:11.723
that are happening to the child.

1149
00:47:11.723 --> 00:47:13.292
And then there's the
internal victimization.

1150
00:47:13.292 --> 00:47:15.093
Where the child, actually themselves,

1151
00:47:15.093 --> 00:47:17.515
blame themselves, feel they deserve it.

1152
00:47:17.515 --> 00:47:19.670
And then there's the cyclical process.

1153
00:47:19.670 --> 00:47:20.885
Where they're expecting it.

1154
00:47:20.885 --> 00:47:22.944
So even when we're
talking about repetition,

1155
00:47:22.944 --> 00:47:23.914
there's been some talk.

1156
00:47:23.914 --> 00:47:26.499
And often, repetition's
considered to be actual

1157
00:47:26.499 --> 00:47:29.449
repeated events where you're bullied.

1158
00:47:29.449 --> 00:47:31.595
but sometimes there's only one event,

1159
00:47:31.595 --> 00:47:33.728
but the child's expecting
it to be repeated.

1160
00:47:33.728 --> 00:47:36.244
And hope, and thinking about that.

1161
00:47:36.244 --> 00:47:38.218
So that's critical too.

1162
00:47:38.218 --> 00:47:39.944
And then after the victimization,

1163
00:47:39.944 --> 00:47:42.643
with traditional bullying,
after the victimization,

1164
00:47:42.643 --> 00:47:44.412
the child would often continue

1165
00:47:44.412 --> 00:47:47.133
to feel bad about themselves
and blame themselves.

1166
00:47:47.133 --> 00:47:48.712
And there's the on-going effects.

1167
00:47:48.712 --> 00:47:50.866
In traditional bullying, it's

1168
00:47:50.866 --> 00:47:52.573
that they if were going to get help,

1169
00:47:52.573 --> 00:47:54.343
they could kind of work that through.

1170
00:47:54.343 --> 00:47:56.507
In cyber-bullying,
that's more complicated.

1171
00:47:56.507 --> 00:47:59.003
Because on one hand, it happened.

1172
00:47:59.003 --> 00:48:01.318
On the other hand, it's
alive on the internet.

1173
00:48:01.318 --> 00:48:02.662
So it's still real.

1174
00:48:02.662 --> 00:48:04.464
And we can't negate that.

1175
00:48:04.464 --> 00:48:06.704
And so the challenge is to work with that.

1176
00:48:06.704 --> 00:48:08.528
And somebody did a
research study recently,

1177
00:48:08.528 --> 00:48:13.327
talking with therapists who
were really trained with working

1178
00:48:13.327 --> 00:48:14.672
with kids who have been traumatized.

1179
00:48:14.672 --> 00:48:17.829
And then, when they had
any experiences with kids

1180
00:48:17.829 --> 00:48:20.666
who were traumatized sexually on-line,

1181
00:48:20.666 --> 00:48:22.884
they felt completely out of their depth.

1182
00:48:22.884 --> 00:48:24.100
Even though they had worked with

1183
00:48:24.100 --> 00:48:27.215
the most horrific sexual
abuse cases off-line,

1184
00:48:27.215 --> 00:48:29.668
the part that really threw them, on-line,

1185
00:48:29.668 --> 00:48:31.087
was the part that it was always there.

1186
00:48:31.087 --> 00:48:32.761
The permanent image.

1187
00:48:34.841 --> 00:48:36.203
And a little bit about gender.

1188
00:48:36.203 --> 00:48:37.931
The reason I'm going to
talk a bit about gender is,

1189
00:48:37.931 --> 00:48:40.085
in our study, one of the things we found

1190
00:48:40.085 --> 00:48:41.748
that was unanticipated, and again,

1191
00:48:41.748 --> 00:48:43.168
it's just preliminary,

1192
00:48:43.168 --> 00:48:45.268
is we really found a
difference that's gender.

1193
00:48:45.268 --> 00:48:48.479
And actually, with traditional bullying,

1194
00:48:48.479 --> 00:48:50.389
there's a difference with gender.

1195
00:48:50.389 --> 00:48:54.356
When bullying first
started getting studied,

1196
00:48:54.356 --> 00:48:56.202
everyone thought that boys were

1197
00:48:56.202 --> 00:48:57.791
much more involved in bullying.

1198
00:48:57.791 --> 00:48:59.497
And then some people said,

1199
00:48:59.497 --> 00:49:01.332
"What about relational bullying?"

1200
00:49:01.332 --> 00:49:03.849
Because girls were
often just described as,

1201
00:49:03.849 --> 00:49:06.473
"They're bitchy, this
is what they're like."

1202
00:49:06.473 --> 00:49:08.777
Rather than realizing, this
is not what they're like,

1203
00:49:08.777 --> 00:49:12.670
this is not their persons,
this how they are aggressive.

1204
00:49:12.670 --> 00:49:15.944
So then we realized
that boys tend to bully

1205
00:49:15.944 --> 00:49:18.323
in direct aggressive ways.

1206
00:49:18.323 --> 00:49:20.925
And girls tend to bully in
indirect aggressive ways.

1207
00:49:20.925 --> 00:49:23.219
Not always, but that's the tendency.

1208
00:49:23.219 --> 00:49:26.033
So one of the questions
is, in cyber-bullying,

1209
00:49:26.033 --> 00:49:27.079
how does that look?

1210
00:49:27.079 --> 00:49:30.023
And we were looking at the
underlying motivations.

1211
00:49:30.023 --> 00:49:32.178
We didn't have this on our radar,

1212
00:49:32.178 --> 00:49:35.356
but I'll talk a little bit about this

1213
00:49:35.356 --> 00:49:36.597
and then I'll show my results.

1214
00:49:36.597 --> 00:49:40.191
But that, for girls, it
really is sexualized.

1215
00:49:40.191 --> 00:49:42.283
And we have to put that in the context

1216
00:49:42.283 --> 00:49:45.066
of a world that's really
sexualized, in terms of girls.

1217
00:49:45.066 --> 00:49:47.488
There's often rumors
spreading about girls.

1218
00:49:47.488 --> 00:49:50.388
And it's really a tremendous
amount of ridiculing

1219
00:49:50.388 --> 00:49:52.245
and demeaning their appearance.

1220
00:49:52.245 --> 00:49:55.882
And often, spreading rumors
about them, sexually.

1221
00:49:56.662 --> 00:49:59.421
Some research has found that
boys tend to spread rumors

1222
00:49:59.421 --> 00:50:00.541
because it's a way,

1223
00:50:00.541 --> 00:50:01.917
if they're attracted to the girl,

1224
00:50:01.917 --> 00:50:04.786
it's a way to make the
girl more acceptable,

1225
00:50:04.786 --> 00:50:06.962
more closer, more approachable.

1226
00:50:06.962 --> 00:50:09.340
And the girls might
spread rumors about girls

1227
00:50:09.340 --> 00:50:11.698
because they're in competition.

1228
00:50:14.908 --> 00:50:17.308
And girls experience the victimization

1229
00:50:17.308 --> 00:50:19.281
of cyber-bullying, for sure.

1230
00:50:19.281 --> 00:50:21.959
It's often related to sexual
behavior and appearance.

1231
00:50:21.959 --> 00:50:23.217
And that's absolutely critical.

1232
00:50:23.217 --> 00:50:24.945
And they're not really talking about that.

1233
00:50:24.945 --> 00:50:27.590
So again, where we
have, a tragedy happens,

1234
00:50:27.590 --> 00:50:29.745
and then we all hear about it.

1235
00:50:29.745 --> 00:50:31.601
And then we forget about it it,

1236
00:50:31.601 --> 00:50:32.859
it goes off the radar screen.

1237
00:50:32.859 --> 00:50:36.104
But it's happening on a
daily basis with them.

1238
00:50:37.754 --> 00:50:40.944
And there's been a lot
of research that shows

1239
00:50:40.944 --> 00:50:42.640
that with bullying, with
what we call bullying

1240
00:50:42.640 --> 00:50:44.965
or sexual harassment, whatever we call it.

1241
00:50:44.965 --> 00:50:48.069
That happens early for
girls, and it's pervasive.

1242
00:50:48.069 --> 00:50:51.193
In fact, a couple of
research articles have said

1243
00:50:51.193 --> 00:50:54.821
that school is like one of the
most unsafe places for girls.

1244
00:50:54.821 --> 00:50:58.009
And it often occurs in
the presence of others.

1245
00:50:58.009 --> 00:50:59.365
And it's left unaddressed.

1246
00:50:59.365 --> 00:51:01.540
And it's not that the presence of adults,

1247
00:51:01.540 --> 00:51:03.674
it's not that the adults don't care.

1248
00:51:03.674 --> 00:51:05.689
It's that the adults either don't see it

1249
00:51:05.689 --> 00:51:07.225
or they don't define it that way.

1250
00:51:07.225 --> 00:51:08.324
In my study,

1251
00:51:08.324 --> 00:51:11.289
not on cyber-bullying, but
on traditional bullying,

1252
00:51:11.289 --> 00:51:13.326
there were some situations
with girls in grade four

1253
00:51:13.326 --> 00:51:15.758
where either a teacher
or parent talked about

1254
00:51:15.758 --> 00:51:19.277
the girl having been
upset by what the boys

1255
00:51:19.277 --> 00:51:21.635
were doing to her, touching her breasts,

1256
00:51:21.635 --> 00:51:24.334
doing sexual kinds of things in the class.

1257
00:51:24.334 --> 00:51:25.880
And in both cases,

1258
00:51:25.880 --> 00:51:28.109
these are very concerned
mothers and teachers

1259
00:51:28.109 --> 00:51:29.635
who said things like,

1260
00:51:29.635 --> 00:51:31.448
"It's just that they're so adorable,

1261
00:51:31.448 --> 00:51:33.229
and the boys just really like them."

1262
00:51:33.229 --> 00:51:34.456
And it was often not until

1263
00:51:34.456 --> 00:51:36.642
they were doing it in the interview

1264
00:51:36.642 --> 00:51:37.698
that they heard themselves.

1265
00:51:37.698 --> 00:51:38.775
That they became quite upset.

1266
00:51:38.775 --> 00:51:39.735
And there was one teacher

1267
00:51:39.735 --> 00:51:40.994
where I actually had
to stop the interview,

1268
00:51:40.994 --> 00:51:42.294
because she became so upset

1269
00:51:42.294 --> 00:51:44.791
when she realized what she had missed.

1270
00:51:44.791 --> 00:51:46.626
So it's just that, they're in grade four.

1271
00:51:46.626 --> 00:51:48.695
They just hadn't thought
about it that way.

1272
00:51:48.695 --> 00:51:51.169
But it's important, again,

1273
00:51:51.169 --> 00:51:53.555
and the challenge is how
to think about it that way.

1274
00:51:53.555 --> 00:51:56.883
And how to intervene, but not
in an overly reactive way.

1275
00:51:56.883 --> 00:51:59.239
Because again, we don't want
to shame and humiliate them.

1276
00:51:59.239 --> 00:52:00.488
But how to give the message.

1277
00:52:00.488 --> 00:52:01.619
Because if don't do anything,

1278
00:52:01.619 --> 00:52:02.877
the message the girls are getting

1279
00:52:02.877 --> 00:52:04.050
is that this is OK.

1280
00:52:04.050 --> 00:52:06.311
If a boy likes you, this
is how he can do it.

1281
00:52:06.311 --> 00:52:09.256
And the message the boy's
getting is also that it's OK.

1282
00:52:09.256 --> 00:52:10.983
And that's the time to intervene.

1283
00:52:10.983 --> 00:52:15.314
The challenge is to do that in
a way that's subtle but firm.

1284
00:52:17.424 --> 00:52:20.594
And the kinds of things
that girls experience,

1285
00:52:20.594 --> 00:52:21.649
girls and young women,

1286
00:52:21.649 --> 00:52:23.335
but we're just talking
about the girls here,

1287
00:52:23.335 --> 00:52:26.001
threats of sexual violence,
doctored photographs,

1288
00:52:26.001 --> 00:52:28.486
publishing personal
information with invitations

1289
00:52:28.486 --> 00:52:29.723
to abuse the victims.

1290
00:52:29.723 --> 00:52:31.077
Now, I'm not going into this here

1291
00:52:31.077 --> 00:52:33.606
because it's not the purpose.

1292
00:52:33.606 --> 00:52:37.613
But one the areas that
we have not heard about

1293
00:52:37.613 --> 00:52:40.728
yet in the world, is the
kind of sexual violence

1294
00:52:40.728 --> 00:52:44.098
that a lot of women experience
on-line, that's pervasive.

1295
00:52:44.098 --> 00:52:45.741
And these are adult women.

1296
00:52:45.741 --> 00:52:47.798
And many of them actually go off-line,

1297
00:52:47.798 --> 00:52:49.783
because they're not safe there.

1298
00:52:49.783 --> 00:52:53.527
And it's interesting to me
that it's just not heard,

1299
00:52:53.527 --> 00:52:55.009
we don't talk about that.

1300
00:52:55.009 --> 00:52:56.823
But that's another area.

1301
00:52:56.823 --> 00:52:58.732
So back to girls.

1302
00:52:58.732 --> 00:53:00.236
So when we think about these girls,

1303
00:53:00.236 --> 00:53:01.772
and these are young girls,

1304
00:53:01.772 --> 00:53:05.718
they're navigating the
context of the world,

1305
00:53:05.718 --> 00:53:07.529
and then what they experience.

1306
00:53:07.529 --> 00:53:09.801
So they live in an environment,

1307
00:53:09.801 --> 00:53:11.902
the media, celebrities,

1308
00:53:11.902 --> 00:53:15.411
where it's glamorized
and they're pressured

1309
00:53:15.411 --> 00:53:18.419
to be popular, to party, and
to be sexually attractive.

1310
00:53:18.419 --> 00:53:21.182
Like on Facebook, all
the pictures, the pose.

1311
00:53:21.182 --> 00:53:22.463
And there's actually a lot of

1312
00:53:22.463 --> 00:53:25.736
literature on how they
pose in a certain way.

1313
00:53:25.736 --> 00:53:26.899
And how they take a long time

1314
00:53:26.899 --> 00:53:28.724
trying to figure out the right pose.

1315
00:53:28.724 --> 00:53:30.333
But their experience is,

1316
00:53:30.333 --> 00:53:33.640
they're rejected or
punished for being slutty.

1317
00:53:33.640 --> 00:53:35.392
And 'slutty' is very important

1318
00:53:35.392 --> 00:53:38.421
because that's a new
word, that's an old word,

1319
00:53:38.421 --> 00:53:40.395
but it's right back.

1320
00:53:40.395 --> 00:53:41.976
It's used a lot.

1321
00:53:42.846 --> 00:53:44.869
And they're pressured
to 'self-objectivize'.

1322
00:53:44.869 --> 00:53:47.013
So like I said, they're pressured to find,

1323
00:53:47.013 --> 00:53:49.520
and they often talk about
how they spend hours,

1324
00:53:49.520 --> 00:53:52.037
and hundreds of pictures until
they find the right picture.

1325
00:53:52.037 --> 00:53:54.884
But they're criticized
for trying too hard.

1326
00:53:54.884 --> 00:53:57.743
And they're blamed for being
sexually harassed on-line.

1327
00:53:57.743 --> 00:53:59.290
That's their experience.

1328
00:53:59.290 --> 00:54:02.298
And they're pressured
to sent explicit images

1329
00:54:02.298 --> 00:54:04.751
of themselves to boys and men.

1330
00:54:04.751 --> 00:54:08.068
So, like Laurel, like
Amanda Todd, like many.

1331
00:54:08.848 --> 00:54:10.660
And what's important is they're criticized

1332
00:54:10.660 --> 00:54:12.584
for taking these pictures.

1333
00:54:12.584 --> 00:54:14.841
And they're blamed for sharing them.

1334
00:54:14.841 --> 00:54:17.154
And I'll talk about
that later in my study,

1335
00:54:17.154 --> 00:54:19.064
because we found the same thing.

1336
00:54:19.064 --> 00:54:21.700
And it's a culture
where girls are harshly,

1337
00:54:21.700 --> 00:54:23.893
judge each other for that as well.

1338
00:54:23.893 --> 00:54:25.865
So they're criticized for wearing either

1339
00:54:25.865 --> 00:54:27.481
too much or too little.

1340
00:54:27.481 --> 00:54:30.131
And again, we have to think
about, that's the context.

1341
00:54:30.131 --> 00:54:31.259
And the reason it's important,

1342
00:54:31.259 --> 00:54:32.519
and it's the reason I always feel like

1343
00:54:32.519 --> 00:54:33.828
social workers need to be involved

1344
00:54:33.828 --> 00:54:36.825
is we're aware of the
individual propensities,

1345
00:54:36.825 --> 00:54:40.398
children's strengths,
vulnerabilities, their family issues.

1346
00:54:40.398 --> 00:54:44.387
But also the societal
discrimination and messages

1347
00:54:44.387 --> 00:54:46.456
that seep down and affect everybody.

1348
00:54:46.456 --> 00:54:49.507
And to deal with this, we
can't just deal with the kids.

1349
00:54:49.507 --> 00:54:51.330
So, when we talk about somebody sending

1350
00:54:51.330 --> 00:54:53.976
a photo of a girl, we
have to deal with that.

1351
00:54:53.976 --> 00:54:55.309
But we have to deal with the fact that

1352
00:54:55.309 --> 00:54:56.877
that's part of the whole culture.

1353
00:54:58.137 --> 00:54:59.949
And so, image based cyber-bullying,

1354
00:54:59.949 --> 00:55:01.762
there's very little on that.

1355
00:55:01.762 --> 00:55:03.274
But one research showed that

1356
00:55:04.564 --> 00:55:05.833
one in ten participants,

1357
00:55:05.833 --> 00:55:08.127
and these were kids in,
I guess, high school,

1358
00:55:08.127 --> 00:55:09.630
in grades 11 and 12,

1359
00:55:09.630 --> 00:55:12.509
had been involved in image-based bullying.

1360
00:55:12.509 --> 00:55:14.302
Either as a perpetrator or a victim.

1361
00:55:14.302 --> 00:55:16.318
So when you think about
that, that's one in ten.

1362
00:55:16.318 --> 00:55:17.480
That's a lot.

1363
00:55:17.480 --> 00:55:20.510
And in most of the cases,
they knew each other.

1364
00:55:20.510 --> 00:55:23.045
Which fits all of the research.

1365
00:55:23.795 --> 00:55:27.304
And both boys and girls
were equally likely

1366
00:55:27.304 --> 00:55:28.829
to be victimized.

1367
00:55:28.829 --> 00:55:31.208
But boys were more likely
to be the perpetrator.

1368
00:55:31.718 --> 00:55:33.135
The National Campaign to Prevent

1369
00:55:33.135 --> 00:55:34.437
Teen and Unplanned Pregnancy,

1370
00:55:34.437 --> 00:55:37.178
they found that 22% of
girls and 18% of boys

1371
00:55:37.178 --> 00:55:39.108
have sent nude or semi-nude pictures

1372
00:55:39.108 --> 00:55:40.899
and videos of themselves.

1373
00:55:40.899 --> 00:55:43.193
Usually it's to somebody
important to them.

1374
00:55:44.373 --> 00:55:46.200
But it can be to somebody they know

1375
00:55:46.200 --> 00:55:48.292
on-line and not off-line.

1376
00:55:49.022 --> 00:55:52.388
And of course, it can affect
many aspects of their lives.

1377
00:55:52.388 --> 00:55:55.159
They also found, which again,
this fits with the other,

1378
00:55:55.159 --> 00:55:57.474
what I said about kids
understanding the risk,

1379
00:55:57.474 --> 00:55:58.562
that we often say,

1380
00:55:58.562 --> 00:56:01.377
"Well, you know, let them
know of the dangers."

1381
00:56:01.377 --> 00:56:03.500
Well, these kids between 13 and 19,

1382
00:56:03.500 --> 00:56:06.135
they're conflicted, they know
it's problematic to do it.

1383
00:56:06.135 --> 00:56:08.864
They know it might get out,
and they do it anyways.

1384
00:56:08.864 --> 00:56:10.369
And the reason we need to know that is

1385
00:56:10.369 --> 00:56:13.003
it means that the way we need
to intervene and help them,

1386
00:56:13.003 --> 00:56:15.019
it's not just pure education.

1387
00:56:15.019 --> 00:56:17.216
We need to deal with the larger context.

1388
00:56:17.216 --> 00:56:19.040
We need to deal the more complex things.

1389
00:56:19.040 --> 00:56:20.864
Because even though they
know it, they do it.

1390
00:56:21.924 --> 00:56:25.119
And over half of girls say
they felt pressured from a boy.

1391
00:56:25.119 --> 00:56:27.392
And some of them talk
about feeling worn down.

1392
00:56:27.392 --> 00:56:30.581
And they're also pressured by friends.

1393
00:56:30.581 --> 00:56:34.751
And some of them create sexy photos,

1394
00:56:34.751 --> 00:56:37.237
and some of them do it as a joke.

1395
00:56:38.217 --> 00:56:39.999
And we often talk about kids.

1396
00:56:39.999 --> 00:56:41.386
The message often is like,

1397
00:56:41.386 --> 00:56:42.538
"What is it with kids?"

1398
00:56:42.538 --> 00:56:43.903
But there's recently,

1399
00:56:43.903 --> 00:56:46.548
there's starting to be some
research in young adults.

1400
00:56:46.548 --> 00:56:50.142
And the statistics are
even greater for them.

1401
00:56:50.142 --> 00:56:51.753
And one thing I just wanted to mention,

1402
00:56:51.753 --> 00:56:52.884
in terms of the normality is,

1403
00:56:52.884 --> 00:56:55.528
there's a TV show called 'Homeland'.

1404
00:56:55.528 --> 00:56:57.481
Is that, the people watch that?

1405
00:56:57.481 --> 00:57:00.467
There's one scene where
Dana, I think she's 14,

1406
00:57:00.467 --> 00:57:02.310
she comes home, she was
put in a mental institute

1407
00:57:02.310 --> 00:57:04.004
for awhile because
she's feeling depressed.

1408
00:57:04.004 --> 00:57:05.920
And she gets very connected to a boy.

1409
00:57:05.920 --> 00:57:08.374
Comes home, is not happy at home.

1410
00:57:08.374 --> 00:57:10.454
So the first night she comes
home, she feels alienated.

1411
00:57:10.454 --> 00:57:14.560
She goes into her room, takes
her cell, takes off her top,

1412
00:57:14.560 --> 00:57:16.470
and sends a picture to her boyfriend.

1413
00:57:16.470 --> 00:57:18.345
So what was striking about that is,

1414
00:57:18.345 --> 00:57:19.774
so it's now in the media.

1415
00:57:19.774 --> 00:57:22.554
Because everybody, you know,
people were upset about it.

1416
00:57:22.554 --> 00:57:24.090
But there it is in the media.

1417
00:57:24.090 --> 00:57:25.519
And there was no cautionary tale.

1418
00:57:25.519 --> 00:57:27.919
Nothing happened, he
didn't do anything with it.

1419
00:57:27.919 --> 00:57:29.850
So it just becomes part of the norm.

1420
00:57:29.850 --> 00:57:32.367
So when it's like that, a 14 year old girl

1421
00:57:32.367 --> 00:57:33.945
or a 14 year old boy watching it,

1422
00:57:33.945 --> 00:57:35.492
that can be acceptable.

1423
00:57:35.492 --> 00:57:36.911
And the other thing struck me is,

1424
00:57:36.911 --> 00:57:39.620
because I'm so hyper-alert to
this, because of my research,

1425
00:57:39.620 --> 00:57:41.729
I was watching that
episode with a few people,

1426
00:57:41.729 --> 00:57:43.614
they hadn't even noticed it.

1427
00:57:43.614 --> 00:57:44.990
They hadn't even noticed it.

1428
00:57:44.990 --> 00:57:47.362
It was just part of what happens.

1429
00:57:48.602 --> 00:57:50.739
So a little bit about my current study.

1430
00:57:50.739 --> 00:57:52.222
It's a three year study

1431
00:57:52.222 --> 00:57:54.963
with 19 schools in Toronto.

1432
00:57:55.803 --> 00:57:57.757
And it's both surveys...

1433
00:57:57.757 --> 00:58:01.832
We're looking at their,
the digital experience.

1434
00:58:01.832 --> 00:58:05.011
How, their experience with cyber-bullying.

1435
00:58:05.011 --> 00:58:07.634
And then also, we're looking
at their social support.

1436
00:58:07.634 --> 00:58:09.822
Their self-esteem and their relationships.

1437
00:58:09.822 --> 00:58:11.208
And we also, in the study,

1438
00:58:11.208 --> 00:58:13.949
have included their
parents and their teachers.

1439
00:58:13.949 --> 00:58:16.328
But we haven't analyzed any of that yet.

1440
00:58:16.328 --> 00:58:18.064
So I'm just going to talk a little about

1441
00:58:18.064 --> 00:58:21.170
some tentative qualitative findings.

1442
00:58:22.630 --> 00:58:26.012
So again, 19 schools, more females.

1443
00:58:26.012 --> 00:58:27.218
Toronto.

1444
00:58:28.608 --> 00:58:31.082
They're pretty evenly distributed

1445
00:58:31.082 --> 00:58:32.947
between four, seven, and ten.

1446
00:58:34.027 --> 00:58:35.784
Two thirds of them were born in Canada.

1447
00:58:35.784 --> 00:58:37.757
It really does, when we looked at it,

1448
00:58:37.757 --> 00:58:40.573
the demographics were
pretty close to Toronto.

1449
00:58:40.573 --> 00:58:43.505
8% identify as having a disability.

1450
00:58:43.505 --> 00:58:45.469
Toronto schools are divided

1451
00:58:45.469 --> 00:58:47.420
into low, medium, and high needs.

1452
00:58:47.420 --> 00:58:48.646
so they were pretty representative.

1453
00:58:48.646 --> 00:58:50.066
And we sampled on that basis.

1454
00:58:50.066 --> 00:58:52.080
We wanted to get the representation.

1455
00:58:52.080 --> 00:58:54.414
So some of the questions,
the background questions.

1456
00:58:54.414 --> 00:58:56.622
How many hours they spent on-line.

1457
00:58:56.622 --> 00:58:59.406
Naturally, the older kids
spend more time on-line.

1458
00:58:59.406 --> 00:59:00.398
But eve kids in grade four

1459
00:59:00.398 --> 00:59:03.224
spent an average of 1.4 hours on-line.

1460
00:59:03.224 --> 00:59:06.616
The prevalence, we asked
about traditional and cyber,

1461
00:59:06.616 --> 00:59:09.772
and similar to other
research, the cyber was less.

1462
00:59:09.772 --> 00:59:12.589
And much more as a witness.

1463
00:59:12.589 --> 00:59:14.835
So many more kids have witnessed it.

1464
00:59:14.835 --> 00:59:16.747
Another question we asked is how often,

1465
00:59:16.747 --> 00:59:19.350
how many of them owned cells.

1466
00:59:19.350 --> 00:59:21.867
And of course, it's higher by grade.

1467
00:59:21.867 --> 00:59:23.414
But kids in grade four,

1468
00:59:23.414 --> 00:59:26.155
a significant percentage
of them own a cell phone.

1469
00:59:26.755 --> 00:59:30.204
And victimization, again, it goes down.

1470
00:59:30.204 --> 00:59:33.117
As traditional, it goes down by grade.

1471
00:59:33.857 --> 00:59:35.684
One very interesting finding we found

1472
00:59:35.684 --> 00:59:39.353
is that the parents and teachers
reported that their kids,

1473
00:59:39.353 --> 00:59:42.969
and the students, were involved
more than the kids were,

1474
00:59:42.969 --> 00:59:44.686
than the kids said they were.

1475
00:59:44.686 --> 00:59:46.676
So again, that's why
it's important to kind of

1476
00:59:46.676 --> 00:59:47.961
get what they're saying.

1477
00:59:47.961 --> 00:59:48.661
And part of that might be

1478
00:59:48.661 --> 00:59:51.426
that the kids are not
defining it as bullying.

1479
00:59:51.976 --> 00:59:53.433
And same as teachers.

1480
00:59:54.843 --> 00:59:57.144
An interesting finding that
I think was disturbing,

1481
00:59:57.144 --> 00:59:59.927
but it talks about the
need to educate adults,

1482
00:59:59.927 --> 01:00:03.265
is the kids, they did not differ,

1483
01:00:03.265 --> 01:00:04.886
boys and girls did not differ, in terms of

1484
01:00:04.886 --> 01:00:06.731
how much they said they were bullied

1485
01:00:06.731 --> 01:00:08.546
or bullied others on-line.

1486
01:00:08.546 --> 01:00:10.209
It was pretty equivalent.

1487
01:00:10.209 --> 01:00:12.204
When teachers and parents were asked,

1488
01:00:12.204 --> 01:00:14.806
the teachers, almost half of them thought

1489
01:00:14.806 --> 01:00:15.905
that there was a difference.

1490
01:00:15.905 --> 01:00:17.900
And out of all those, they all thought

1491
01:00:17.900 --> 01:00:19.894
girls bullied more on-line.

1492
01:00:19.894 --> 01:00:21.761
And parents, not quite as many,

1493
01:00:21.761 --> 01:00:23.937
but it was still pretty significant.

1494
01:00:23.937 --> 01:00:27.350
So again, that says that we
really need to sort that out.

1495
01:00:27.350 --> 01:00:29.056
Give the education.

1496
01:00:29.766 --> 01:00:32.331
One of the questions we asked
is whether they felt safe.

1497
01:00:32.331 --> 01:00:34.059
And they pretty much felt safe.

1498
01:00:34.059 --> 01:00:35.295
Which is interesting.

1499
01:00:36.325 --> 01:00:38.688
When we asked whether they would tell,

1500
01:00:38.688 --> 01:00:41.663
girls were more likely to
tell adults and others,

1501
01:00:41.663 --> 01:00:43.584
although none of them were very likely.

1502
01:00:43.584 --> 01:00:45.961
And how often, how likely they were

1503
01:00:45.961 --> 01:00:48.543
to encourage the victimized
kid to tell somebody.

1504
01:00:48.543 --> 01:00:50.911
And girls are more likely to.

1505
01:00:51.701 --> 01:00:54.388
So when ask about some of the behaviors,

1506
01:00:55.598 --> 01:00:58.138
in terms of embarrassing photos,

1507
01:00:58.138 --> 01:01:00.719
so quite a lot presented.

1508
01:01:00.719 --> 01:01:03.845
Said that they had embarrassing
photos sent of them.

1509
01:01:03.845 --> 01:01:06.149
And that they had mean
things said to them.

1510
01:01:08.209 --> 01:01:11.427
Posted pictures of them
that were embarrassing.

1511
01:01:11.427 --> 01:01:12.386
And this is significant,

1512
01:01:12.386 --> 01:01:15.313
they're more likely to do
it in the higher grades.

1513
01:01:15.313 --> 01:01:19.185
But 8.1% is still pretty
significant in grade four.

1514
01:01:19.185 --> 01:01:21.340
And making web pages that were mean,

1515
01:01:21.340 --> 01:01:23.515
kids in grade four were
more likely to do that.

1516
01:01:23.515 --> 01:01:24.795
And spreading rumors.

1517
01:01:24.795 --> 01:01:27.281
So these are all things that happened.

1518
01:01:28.471 --> 01:01:31.003
One question was whether
they have on-line friends

1519
01:01:31.003 --> 01:01:32.187
that they haven't met in real life.

1520
01:01:32.187 --> 01:01:34.501
And again, they're more likely to do that

1521
01:01:34.501 --> 01:01:36.956
if they were in the higher grades.

1522
01:01:36.956 --> 01:01:38.917
But even kids in grade four were,

1523
01:01:38.917 --> 01:01:41.552
had a significant number of them

1524
01:01:41.552 --> 01:01:44.155
had friends on-line that
they did not have off-line.

1525
01:01:46.285 --> 01:01:48.986
This question we asked only
for grades seven and ten,

1526
01:01:48.986 --> 01:01:50.810
because ethics wouldn't let us grade four.

1527
01:01:50.810 --> 01:01:54.852
But 15% had seen nude or
sexual photos of their friends,

1528
01:01:54.852 --> 01:01:58.916
family, boyfriend or girlfriend,
or other romantic partner.

1529
01:02:05.056 --> 01:02:08.687
One unanticipated result is

1530
01:02:08.687 --> 01:02:11.150
that with students in distress,

1531
01:02:11.150 --> 01:02:12.804
in any research protocol,

1532
01:02:12.804 --> 01:02:14.392
especially with vulnerable youth,

1533
01:02:14.392 --> 01:02:18.254
you have to set up a process to identify

1534
01:02:18.254 --> 01:02:20.205
kids who might be in distress.

1535
01:02:20.205 --> 01:02:22.637
And who might become more in distress

1536
01:02:22.637 --> 01:02:23.821
because of the study.

1537
01:02:23.821 --> 01:02:25.005
And so what we did is,

1538
01:02:25.005 --> 01:02:28.057
we set that up so that
we had a few questions

1539
01:02:28.057 --> 01:02:30.083
that identified kids who were in distress.

1540
01:02:30.083 --> 01:02:32.258
Or they scored a certain amount.

1541
01:02:32.258 --> 01:02:33.560
And we also gave them an option

1542
01:02:33.560 --> 01:02:35.245
to say they wanted to talk to somebody.

1543
01:02:35.245 --> 01:02:36.748
And then we'd have a research assistant

1544
01:02:36.748 --> 01:02:38.147
who was a social work student.

1545
01:02:38.147 --> 01:02:39.169
Which was very critical,

1546
01:02:39.169 --> 01:02:41.729
because they needed to
have some clinical skills.

1547
01:02:41.729 --> 01:02:45.164
And if we decided that they
needed to have a referral,

1548
01:02:45.164 --> 01:02:46.220
we would make the referral

1549
01:02:46.220 --> 01:02:48.065
through the principal, to social work.

1550
01:02:48.065 --> 01:02:52.374
So we were totally shocked
by the number of kids

1551
01:02:52.374 --> 01:02:55.200
who were in distress
and needed a referral.

1552
01:02:55.200 --> 01:02:57.451
And being at a university,

1553
01:02:57.451 --> 01:02:59.520
I found that really very important.

1554
01:02:59.520 --> 01:03:03.509
Because one of the priorities
in all universities now

1555
01:03:03.509 --> 01:03:06.475
is students' mental health.

1556
01:03:06.475 --> 01:03:08.267
And yet, we're seeing these kids

1557
01:03:08.267 --> 01:03:09.525
in grade four, seven, and ten,

1558
01:03:09.525 --> 01:03:11.928
and they're struggling with mental health.

1559
01:03:12.688 --> 01:03:15.285
So we found in year one
that almost one in five

1560
01:03:15.285 --> 01:03:16.843
identified as in distress.

1561
01:03:16.843 --> 01:03:20.319
Enough so that we had to actually
go in and talk with them.

1562
01:03:20.319 --> 01:03:22.762
And in some cases, we had to
go back a couple of times.

1563
01:03:22.762 --> 01:03:24.927
Because they were not
interested in getting help.

1564
01:03:24.927 --> 01:03:27.166
So that's where we needed
the social work skills,

1565
01:03:27.166 --> 01:03:31.197
to kind of, psychologically,
work with them.

1566
01:03:31.197 --> 01:03:32.894
Especially if we thought they needed it.

1567
01:03:32.894 --> 01:03:36.318
So in year one, 18% of the
students were in distress.

1568
01:03:36.318 --> 01:03:38.066
And in year two, 14%.

1569
01:03:38.066 --> 01:03:40.082
And we don't have year three yet.

1570
01:03:40.082 --> 01:03:41.498
But just...

1571
01:03:41.668 --> 01:03:43.806
They're more likely to be female.

1572
01:03:43.806 --> 01:03:45.470
And many of them, a third of them,

1573
01:03:45.470 --> 01:03:47.624
were identified because they said

1574
01:03:47.624 --> 01:03:50.451
they had suicidal thoughts
or had done something.

1575
01:03:50.451 --> 01:03:52.788
And in the first year,

1576
01:03:52.788 --> 01:03:54.813
there was no relationship between grades.

1577
01:03:54.813 --> 01:03:56.221
So that meant the kids in grade four

1578
01:03:56.221 --> 01:03:58.761
were also likely to be in distress.

1579
01:04:00.711 --> 01:04:03.431
So in year one, 62% of
the students in distress

1580
01:04:03.431 --> 01:04:05.331
we thought needed referral.

1581
01:04:05.331 --> 01:04:08.348
And in year two, 51% did.

1582
01:04:09.168 --> 01:04:10.737
And one of the other concerning issues

1583
01:04:10.737 --> 01:04:12.937
was that many of them had seen help,

1584
01:04:13.537 --> 01:04:15.270
been in help, been for help,

1585
01:04:15.270 --> 01:04:16.709
and they had not found it helpful.

1586
01:04:16.709 --> 01:04:18.010
But they felt they either

1587
01:04:18.010 --> 01:04:19.536
couldn't tell their parents about it,

1588
01:04:19.536 --> 01:04:21.999
or if they did, nothing happened.

1589
01:04:21.999 --> 01:04:23.706
So they weren't talking to anybody.

1590
01:04:23.706 --> 01:04:25.733
And it was very interesting
that they came and talked to us.

1591
01:04:25.733 --> 01:04:27.748
So there were actually a couple of kids,

1592
01:04:27.748 --> 01:04:29.168
actually, more than a couple of kids,

1593
01:04:29.168 --> 01:04:30.768
who signed up for the study

1594
01:04:30.768 --> 01:04:33.680
just so they could talk to us about it.

1595
01:04:35.880 --> 01:04:37.348
I'm not going to go
into all of the reasons.

1596
01:04:37.348 --> 01:04:39.993
But the reasons we broke
it into three themes,

1597
01:04:39.993 --> 01:04:42.147
one was protecting themself.

1598
01:04:42.147 --> 01:04:44.099
That they were afraid
that if they told adults,

1599
01:04:44.099 --> 01:04:45.625
they would be blamed.

1600
01:04:46.195 --> 01:04:48.305
They would be not understood.

1601
01:04:48.305 --> 01:04:50.301
So they felt that would not be good.

1602
01:04:50.301 --> 01:04:52.838
Another reason was protecting others.

1603
01:04:52.838 --> 01:04:55.602
A lot of them were
protecting their parents.

1604
01:04:55.602 --> 01:04:56.475
They did not,

1605
01:04:56.475 --> 01:04:58.182
they felt their parents
were already burdened,

1606
01:04:58.182 --> 01:04:59.707
they didn't need another burden.

1607
01:04:59.707 --> 01:05:02.470
In some cases, they came from
ethnic or religious groups

1608
01:05:02.470 --> 01:05:03.804
where they felt that it would bring

1609
01:05:03.804 --> 01:05:05.712
tremendous shame to the family.

1610
01:05:05.712 --> 01:05:07.490
And then the last theme was really

1611
01:05:07.490 --> 01:05:08.731
that they felt adults wouldn't help.

1612
01:05:08.731 --> 01:05:10.448
So there was no point.

1613
01:05:11.898 --> 01:05:13.436
And another concerning thing is,

1614
01:05:13.436 --> 01:05:15.146
even though we made referrals,

1615
01:05:15.146 --> 01:05:17.460
39% of the students in
distress in year one,

1616
01:05:17.460 --> 01:05:19.818
we found again, they were
in distress the second year.

1617
01:05:19.818 --> 01:05:21.385
That was very concerning.

1618
01:05:21.385 --> 01:05:23.284
And so many of them felt that there was

1619
01:05:23.284 --> 01:05:25.068
nothing they could do.

1620
01:05:25.908 --> 01:05:29.929
So if we just go back to
the findings we had again.

1621
01:05:29.929 --> 01:05:31.789
It's very tentative, but girls...

1622
01:05:31.789 --> 01:05:33.981
Just pulled out some quotes

1623
01:05:33.981 --> 01:05:36.254
about the kinds of things
they're talking about.

1624
01:05:36.254 --> 01:05:38.536
So, one girl in grade ten talked about,

1625
01:05:38.536 --> 01:05:41.032
"..posting pictures of this girl I knew.

1626
01:05:41.032 --> 01:05:43.528
And it was very private
pictures, so it was quite bad.

1627
01:05:43.528 --> 01:05:44.616
But usually when people comment,

1628
01:05:44.616 --> 01:05:46.013
they don't do nice comments."

1629
01:05:46.013 --> 01:05:47.706
And that's what really came out.

1630
01:05:47.706 --> 01:05:50.514
The picture's there, they
don't don't just leave it.

1631
01:05:50.514 --> 01:05:53.423
There's a tremendous kind of...

1632
01:05:54.063 --> 01:05:54.938
Starting...

1633
01:05:54.938 --> 01:05:58.009
They all begin to write bad comments.

1634
01:05:59.169 --> 01:06:03.449
Another girl talked about
sending pictures to somebody,

1635
01:06:03.449 --> 01:06:07.214
and then it'll get out, and
thinking they can trust them.

1636
01:06:07.214 --> 01:06:09.166
And again, one of the
themes that really came out

1637
01:06:09.166 --> 01:06:12.355
is that they tended to blame
the girl for doing that.

1638
01:06:12.355 --> 01:06:16.056
Not one person said anything
about the boy getting

1639
01:06:16.056 --> 01:06:20.568
a picture that was private,
and that he shouldn't send it.

1640
01:06:21.388 --> 01:06:23.085
And then this is a girl in grade four.

1641
01:06:23.085 --> 01:06:24.248
And I thought it was really important

1642
01:06:24.248 --> 01:06:27.618
because she's talking about
using the word 'slut'.

1643
01:06:27.618 --> 01:06:29.079
And she doesn't even know what it means,

1644
01:06:29.079 --> 01:06:31.415
but she knows it's despicable,

1645
01:06:31.415 --> 01:06:33.367
and she thinks it's to do with 'ugly'.

1646
01:06:33.367 --> 01:06:35.962
But it just shows it's part of that,

1647
01:06:35.962 --> 01:06:37.333
that culture.

1648
01:06:38.693 --> 01:06:41.664
And boys, one of the issues for boys,

1649
01:06:41.664 --> 01:06:42.591
they talk, they,

1650
01:06:42.591 --> 01:06:45.782
girls call it 'drama',
boys call it 'trash talk'.

1651
01:06:45.782 --> 01:06:48.204
And there's a lot of homophobic comments.

1652
01:06:48.204 --> 01:06:49.590
And what's interesting though,

1653
01:06:49.590 --> 01:06:52.779
is a lot of it takes
place in gaming sites.

1654
01:06:52.779 --> 01:06:54.400
And adults either don't know about it,

1655
01:06:54.400 --> 01:06:56.043
or don't consider it cyber-bullying.

1656
01:06:56.043 --> 01:06:59.360
Because often, it's not really you.

1657
01:06:59.360 --> 01:07:02.411
So, but when you interview
these boys though,

1658
01:07:02.411 --> 01:07:03.979
they talk about it, it becomes very clear

1659
01:07:03.979 --> 01:07:07.029
that these homophobic,
sexist, racist comments

1660
01:07:07.029 --> 01:07:10.272
can actually be very
difficult for them to hear.

1661
01:07:10.822 --> 01:07:13.609
So this is one boy,
again, talking about that.

1662
01:07:13.609 --> 01:07:16.670
So what he does is,
he'll put his headset on,

1663
01:07:16.670 --> 01:07:18.067
and then take it off.

1664
01:07:18.067 --> 01:07:19.900
He doesn't want to listen to it.

1665
01:07:23.510 --> 01:07:24.669
So just another...

1666
01:07:24.669 --> 01:07:27.656
Just how they keep posting, keep laughing.

1667
01:07:28.156 --> 01:07:30.353
This, again, is a boy in grade four.

1668
01:07:31.183 --> 01:07:33.168
But when we looked at it,

1669
01:07:33.168 --> 01:07:36.109
and this seems to fit some
of the other research,

1670
01:07:36.109 --> 01:07:38.243
is that it's starting to be normalized.

1671
01:07:38.243 --> 01:07:39.885
And I think that's what's important.

1672
01:07:39.885 --> 01:07:43.768
That participants really,
they consider this,

1673
01:07:43.768 --> 01:07:46.285
they're not freaked out by the idea of it.

1674
01:07:46.285 --> 01:07:50.231
It's part of what they
expect, it occurs often.

1675
01:07:50.231 --> 01:07:51.980
And a lot of them talked about

1676
01:07:51.980 --> 01:07:53.666
finding it disturbing and upsetting,

1677
01:07:53.666 --> 01:07:56.385
but a lot of them were
not disturbed by it.

1678
01:07:57.015 --> 01:08:00.417
And this if just, again, a
quote about how fast it happens.

1679
01:08:00.417 --> 01:08:01.313
And...

1680
01:08:03.783 --> 01:08:06.193
And then this, again,
is just the betrayal.

1681
01:08:06.193 --> 01:08:07.775
That you think somebody is a friend,

1682
01:08:07.775 --> 01:08:09.973
and then they send it out.

1683
01:08:10.973 --> 01:08:14.604
But I think the big message
that we're, that struck us,

1684
01:08:14.604 --> 01:08:16.876
is that it is getting normalized.

1685
01:08:16.876 --> 01:08:19.415
And that it's happening
under the radar screen.

1686
01:08:19.415 --> 01:08:22.199
It comes to the media
when there's a tragedy,

1687
01:08:22.199 --> 01:08:23.383
and then we forget about it.

1688
01:08:23.383 --> 01:08:25.557
But as adults, we need to deal with this.

1689
01:08:25.557 --> 01:08:27.489
Because it's part of the new society.

1690
01:08:27.489 --> 01:08:29.025
And there isn't a quick answer.

1691
01:08:29.025 --> 01:08:31.765
Often the answer that's given out is,

1692
01:08:31.765 --> 01:08:35.243
"Let's have new laws, and let's
throw these kids in jail."

1693
01:08:35.243 --> 01:08:37.622
And I think most people
working in the area,

1694
01:08:37.622 --> 01:08:40.182
including law enforcement, would agree,

1695
01:08:40.182 --> 01:08:43.050
that's only the extreme, that's
one end of the continuum.

1696
01:08:43.050 --> 01:08:44.916
But that's not really the issue.

1697
01:08:46.076 --> 01:08:48.309
So I'm not going to get into
cyber-bullying an adult.

1698
01:08:48.309 --> 01:08:49.653
But I think we just need to remember,

1699
01:08:49.653 --> 01:08:51.540
it doesn't stop after high school.

1700
01:08:51.540 --> 01:08:54.281
It takes place a lot in
universities and colleges.

1701
01:08:54.281 --> 01:08:55.168
And workplaces.

1702
01:08:55.168 --> 01:08:57.482
It just hasn't gotten the attention

1703
01:08:57.482 --> 01:08:59.231
that it probably should get.

1704
01:09:00.351 --> 01:09:02.410
So one study showed, you can see,

1705
01:09:02.410 --> 01:09:05.364
that a lot of kids have
been, a lot of young adults

1706
01:09:05.364 --> 01:09:07.700
have been involved in cyber-bullying.

1707
01:09:07.700 --> 01:09:09.919
Or they knew somebody who was.

1708
01:09:09.919 --> 01:09:11.540
And that there's not a
lot of research on it.

1709
01:09:11.540 --> 01:09:13.383
There was more research
on traditional bullying

1710
01:09:13.383 --> 01:09:14.439
in a workplace.

1711
01:09:14.439 --> 01:09:15.537
But we need to do that.

1712
01:09:15.537 --> 01:09:17.671
And when we think about the apps

1713
01:09:17.671 --> 01:09:20.064
that it happens on for young adults,

1714
01:09:20.574 --> 01:09:22.446
there's just a few of the apps.

1715
01:09:22.446 --> 01:09:23.951
There's so many apps.

1716
01:09:23.951 --> 01:09:25.700
And I don't know how many
have heard of most of them.

1717
01:09:25.700 --> 01:09:27.001
Oops, sorry.

1718
01:09:29.391 --> 01:09:30.915
So one app...

1719
01:09:30.915 --> 01:09:32.728
Has anybody heard of YikYak?

1720
01:09:33.608 --> 01:09:35.978
Has anybody heard of YikYak?

1721
01:09:37.548 --> 01:09:39.034
So a couple, OK.

1722
01:09:39.034 --> 01:09:40.815
I had never heard of YikYak.

1723
01:09:40.815 --> 01:09:44.357
So what it is, it's a real-time app.

1724
01:09:44.357 --> 01:09:46.042
It takes place in universities,

1725
01:09:46.042 --> 01:09:47.620
so it could be happening here.

1726
01:09:47.620 --> 01:09:49.210
And the way you access it,

1727
01:09:49.210 --> 01:09:50.756
I'll show you it to you for a second.

1728
01:09:50.756 --> 01:09:52.484
They way you access it is, you turn it on,

1729
01:09:52.484 --> 01:09:57.134
and the closest university
where somebody is using YikYak

1730
01:09:57.134 --> 01:09:59.611
is where you'll be able
to come and see it live.

1731
01:09:59.611 --> 01:10:02.231
So we have a couple of screenshots.

1732
01:10:03.031 --> 01:10:05.472
And I've darkened some of these

1733
01:10:05.472 --> 01:10:07.861
because I just felt,

1734
01:10:07.861 --> 01:10:09.120
there's no way I could even...

1735
01:10:09.120 --> 01:10:12.629
I didn't even feel comfortable
to show it as an example.

1736
01:10:12.629 --> 01:10:15.135
Because it was so offensive.

1737
01:10:15.135 --> 01:10:18.197
And this was happening in university.

1738
01:10:18.197 --> 01:10:20.266
In a class, a regular class.

1739
01:10:20.266 --> 01:10:22.228
And the name of the
professor was mentioned.

1740
01:10:22.228 --> 01:10:23.466
And it's interesting, we looked her up.

1741
01:10:23.466 --> 01:10:25.350
And just coincidentally,
she just gotten her PhD

1742
01:10:25.350 --> 01:10:27.143
from UFT, not in social work.

1743
01:10:27.143 --> 01:10:29.096
But it was...

1744
01:10:29.096 --> 01:10:30.451
So this is just,

1745
01:10:30.451 --> 01:10:33.288
this was like in a matter of two minutes.

1746
01:10:35.148 --> 01:10:36.657
And we kept in some of it,

1747
01:10:36.657 --> 01:10:39.131
but we tried to take out
the real offensive stuff.

1748
01:10:39.131 --> 01:10:41.574
So again, that's under the radar screen.

1749
01:10:41.574 --> 01:10:44.006
There's also things like
'revenge porn sites',

1750
01:10:44.006 --> 01:10:48.635
where boyfriends send pictures
of their ex-girlfriends,

1751
01:10:48.635 --> 01:10:51.344
along with social security
numbers, and addresses,

1752
01:10:51.344 --> 01:10:53.733
and phone numbers, and
explicit instructions

1753
01:10:53.733 --> 01:10:55.802
of what to do to them sexually.

1754
01:10:57.082 --> 01:10:59.258
So in terms of social work implications,

1755
01:10:59.258 --> 01:11:00.869
I think that

1756
01:11:02.669 --> 01:11:05.444
one implication is that
the technological advances

1757
01:11:05.444 --> 01:11:07.779
far out-pace behavioral guidelines.

1758
01:11:07.779 --> 01:11:10.744
And I think that's where social work,

1759
01:11:10.744 --> 01:11:11.747
and Smith College,

1760
01:11:11.747 --> 01:11:13.600
understand that behavioral guidelines

1761
01:11:13.600 --> 01:11:15.264
are not the simple answer.

1762
01:11:15.264 --> 01:11:16.835
That we can't...

1763
01:11:18.135 --> 01:11:19.605
We need to be inclusive.

1764
01:11:19.605 --> 01:11:22.432
We can't just pick one or
two behavioral guidelines.

1765
01:11:22.432 --> 01:11:25.056
We have to understand the whole context.

1766
01:11:25.306 --> 01:11:25.886
Oops.

1767
01:11:26.916 --> 01:11:28.910
I think the battery just died.

1768
01:11:31.622 --> 01:11:32.330
OK.

1769
01:11:32.927 --> 01:11:34.715
You know what, I'll just...

1770
01:11:35.708 --> 01:11:37.296
I've got my notes.

1771
01:11:37.786 --> 01:11:38.682
Sorry.

1772
01:11:44.416 --> 01:11:46.709
So the Ecological Systems Framework,

1773
01:11:46.709 --> 01:11:48.010
the person in environment,

1774
01:11:48.010 --> 01:11:49.248
I think that really fits.

1775
01:11:49.248 --> 01:11:51.562
And some people have
started to add a 'cyber'.

1776
01:11:51.562 --> 01:11:54.986
So there's the individual,

1777
01:11:54.986 --> 01:11:57.771
the macro, and then the societal.

1778
01:11:57.771 --> 01:11:59.636
And then cyber has been added.

1779
01:11:59.636 --> 01:12:02.623
And some people have added it in the micro

1780
01:12:02.623 --> 01:12:04.512
and others have added it in the macro.

1781
01:12:04.512 --> 01:12:06.569
But I think that it really does fit.

1782
01:12:06.569 --> 01:12:08.724
That we need to have an
expanded Systems Framework,

1783
01:12:08.724 --> 01:12:12.457
where we recognize that
cyber world takes place.

1784
01:12:12.457 --> 01:12:14.698
And then we need to both assess for it,

1785
01:12:14.698 --> 01:12:16.796
so when we work with
kids and their families,

1786
01:12:16.796 --> 01:12:17.853
we need to look and see,

1787
01:12:17.853 --> 01:12:20.636
what are they doing in
terms of the cyber world.

1788
01:12:20.636 --> 01:12:23.131
And how does that help us
know where to intervene.

1789
01:12:27.681 --> 01:12:31.473
And because we know that
a child who's vulnerable,

1790
01:12:31.473 --> 01:12:33.692
and then there's other issues across

1791
01:12:33.692 --> 01:12:35.888
the different levels of
their social ecology.

1792
01:12:35.888 --> 01:12:38.064
We really need to understand that.

1793
01:12:38.064 --> 01:12:39.685
And look at that.

1794
01:12:39.685 --> 01:12:42.042
And that helps us really
know where the problems are,

1795
01:12:42.042 --> 01:12:46.373
rather than just coming
up with a quick answer.

1796
01:12:46.963 --> 01:12:48.483
So some of the issues to consider is,

1797
01:12:48.483 --> 01:12:50.787
we need to consider
the school environment.

1798
01:12:50.787 --> 01:12:52.812
We need to wonder, "Is it toxic?

1799
01:12:52.812 --> 01:12:54.519
Is there connectedness?"

1800
01:12:54.519 --> 01:12:56.609
And much research has shown that

1801
01:12:56.609 --> 01:12:58.561
school climate has a huge impact.

1802
01:12:58.561 --> 01:13:00.246
But again, it's a hard thing to change.

1803
01:13:00.246 --> 01:13:01.473
But we need to consider that.

1804
01:13:01.473 --> 01:13:04.705
We also need to consider the
identity of the aggressor.

1805
01:13:04.705 --> 01:13:07.041
Because often it is a friend.

1806
01:13:07.041 --> 01:13:09.558
And when it is a friend,
we need to realize

1807
01:13:09.558 --> 01:13:11.851
that it's happening in these
very important relationships.

1808
01:13:11.851 --> 01:13:14.752
And some research has
shown that, in a group,

1809
01:13:14.752 --> 01:13:17.248
for example, the one
who is the most popular

1810
01:13:17.248 --> 01:13:19.360
no longer bullies in any way.

1811
01:13:19.360 --> 01:13:23.424
But the ones who are getting
close to the top of that ladder

1812
01:13:23.424 --> 01:13:25.046
might be more aggressive.

1813
01:13:25.046 --> 01:13:26.943
So we need to understand the dynamics

1814
01:13:26.943 --> 01:13:28.566
and work with that.

1815
01:13:29.166 --> 01:13:32.020
And absolutely, adults' responses

1816
01:13:32.020 --> 01:13:33.791
to cyber-bullying is critical.

1817
01:13:33.791 --> 01:13:34.890
It can't be,

1818
01:13:34.890 --> 01:13:38.068
It can't be impulsive, and just reactive.

1819
01:13:38.068 --> 01:13:41.375
And often, the message
is that the problem,

1820
01:13:41.375 --> 01:13:43.271
are that kids are doing this,

1821
01:13:43.271 --> 01:13:45.767
and we need to have laws to stop them.

1822
01:13:45.767 --> 01:13:48.614
So I don't know if you know,
in Canada, there's a law now.

1823
01:13:48.614 --> 01:13:52.753
That actually, the Supreme
Court did not, it rejected.

1824
01:13:52.753 --> 01:13:55.846
Part of it was that there could be...

1825
01:13:57.266 --> 01:14:00.231
Law enforcement would be able to access

1826
01:14:00.231 --> 01:14:02.940
all of their internet
stuff without a warrant.

1827
01:14:02.940 --> 01:14:05.477
And the Supreme Court
did not let them do that.

1828
01:14:05.477 --> 01:14:07.164
So the message,

1829
01:14:07.164 --> 01:14:10.397
the impulses are often
to come up with laws.

1830
01:14:10.397 --> 01:14:13.702
And the message is that
the bully, quote, "bully,"

1831
01:14:13.702 --> 01:14:16.922
is the problem, but we know
that the kids who's a bully

1832
01:14:16.922 --> 01:14:19.142
might have a problem,
or might be a problem.

1833
01:14:19.142 --> 01:14:21.275
But it's a problem in a larger context,

1834
01:14:21.275 --> 01:14:23.129
and we have to address that.

1835
01:14:23.839 --> 01:14:25.517
And so then the last thing
I just wanted to say,

1836
01:14:25.517 --> 01:14:26.737
back to Laurel.

1837
01:14:26.737 --> 01:14:29.940
When I met with her, the
big issue for her parents

1838
01:14:29.940 --> 01:14:31.706
is they also wanted to be very punitive.

1839
01:14:31.706 --> 01:14:32.944
And they were really decent people,

1840
01:14:32.944 --> 01:14:34.512
but they were completely freaked out.

1841
01:14:34.512 --> 01:14:36.720
They thought their daughter
was very responsible,

1842
01:14:36.720 --> 01:14:38.020
and had good judgement.

1843
01:14:38.020 --> 01:14:40.485
So for them, this meant that
she didn't have good judgement.

1844
01:14:40.485 --> 01:14:41.765
So in my work with her,

1845
01:14:41.765 --> 01:14:43.973
I met with her individually a bit,

1846
01:14:43.973 --> 01:14:46.256
and I met with her and her parents.

1847
01:14:46.256 --> 01:14:48.954
And what came out is, she
had excellent judgement.

1848
01:14:48.954 --> 01:14:51.962
She was seeing this boy,
she was a great student,

1849
01:14:51.962 --> 01:14:54.010
she was just a great,
responsible young woman.

1850
01:14:54.010 --> 01:14:57.082
So everybody thought that
she was kind of invulnerable.

1851
01:14:57.082 --> 01:14:58.361
But she felt insecure.

1852
01:14:58.361 --> 01:15:01.188
And what became evident is that

1853
01:15:01.188 --> 01:15:03.214
the boyfriend made her feel beautiful,

1854
01:15:03.214 --> 01:15:04.558
and her was very complimentary.

1855
01:15:04.558 --> 01:15:06.510
And then when he started
asking her for a picture,

1856
01:15:06.510 --> 01:15:08.131
she said, "Absolutely not."

1857
01:15:08.131 --> 01:15:09.881
She definitely did not want to do it.

1858
01:15:09.881 --> 01:15:13.069
And he wore her down, and she
felt she owed him something.

1859
01:15:13.069 --> 01:15:15.331
But, so for her parents,
it was very important

1860
01:15:15.331 --> 01:15:17.688
for them to hear that she
did have good judgement.

1861
01:15:17.688 --> 01:15:19.309
That that didn't go out the window.

1862
01:15:19.309 --> 01:15:21.976
But that she's young,
and she felt pressured.

1863
01:15:21.976 --> 01:15:24.108
And she had lower self-esteem.

1864
01:15:24.108 --> 01:15:27.319
And also, at that point,
we weren't aware of it.

1865
01:15:27.319 --> 01:15:29.154
It wasn't public in the world.

1866
01:15:29.154 --> 01:15:30.573
So this is also the context

1867
01:15:30.573 --> 01:15:32.173
of the world that she's living in.

1868
01:15:32.173 --> 01:15:35.628
Because 30 years ago,
nobody would have asked for

1869
01:15:36.568 --> 01:15:38.379
you know, a poloroid picture.

1870
01:15:38.379 --> 01:15:40.555
But now with, she did it with a web cam,

1871
01:15:40.555 --> 01:15:41.567
now with the iPhone.

1872
01:15:41.567 --> 01:15:43.903
So that was very
important, and that helped.

1873
01:15:43.903 --> 01:15:45.632
So that was really important
for her and her family

1874
01:15:45.632 --> 01:15:47.829
to be able to resolve
that, so that they knew.

1875
01:15:47.829 --> 01:15:49.493
They had to understand
that she was a victim.

1876
01:15:49.493 --> 01:15:51.989
At first they just felt she
was breaking their rule,

1877
01:15:51.989 --> 01:15:54.122
doing something that she shouldn't do.

1878
01:15:54.122 --> 01:15:55.219
But she knew...

1879
01:15:55.219 --> 01:15:56.788
It's not just that she
was breaking a rule.

1880
01:15:56.788 --> 01:15:58.047
She did not want to do it.

1881
01:15:58.047 --> 01:16:00.158
But she needed to have that support.

1882
01:16:01.898 --> 01:16:03.139
And that's it.

1883
01:16:04.308 --> 01:16:09.026
(audience applause)

1884
01:16:12.775 --> 01:16:15.109
Sorry about that, sorry about that.

1885
01:16:15.109 --> 01:16:16.606
- [Josh] Take questions
for five or ten minutes.

1886
01:16:16.606 --> 01:16:19.573
- OK, take questions
for five or ten minutes.

1887
01:16:24.032 --> 01:16:24.934
Yes.

1888
01:16:25.405 --> 01:16:27.027
- [Voiceover] So, thank you for your talk.

1889
01:16:27.027 --> 01:16:30.781
I know that Toronto's a
very multi-ethnic city.

1890
01:16:31.941 --> 01:16:35.687
Could you say something
about any ethnic differences

1891
01:16:35.687 --> 01:16:38.994
in the results that you see,
related to cyber-bullying?

1892
01:16:38.994 --> 01:16:42.130
- In ours, so far we
haven't found any in ours.

1893
01:16:43.020 --> 01:16:46.162
And actually, the research
is kind of mixed about it.

1894
01:16:46.162 --> 01:16:48.743
Some find that there
is some, others don't.

1895
01:16:48.743 --> 01:16:51.186
So I think it's something
we need to find more about.

1896
01:16:51.186 --> 01:16:54.939
But in ours, so far that has
not shown up to be different.

1897
01:16:59.909 --> 01:17:00.504
Yes?

1898
01:17:01.974 --> 01:17:04.920
- [Voiceover] I work with a
lot of young adults and kids.

1899
01:17:04.920 --> 01:17:07.303
And when...

1900
01:17:07.779 --> 01:17:09.592
Some of them, when they talk about

1901
01:17:09.592 --> 01:17:12.866
the internet and their
photos, their pictures,

1902
01:17:12.866 --> 01:17:16.300
their communications, I think that they,

1903
01:17:16.300 --> 01:17:18.189
they're actually having sex.

1904
01:17:18.189 --> 01:17:21.196
This is their version of sex.

1905
01:17:21.196 --> 01:17:25.058
And what I said to one of my clients was,

1906
01:17:25.058 --> 01:17:27.884
"Would you have sex without a condom?"

1907
01:17:27.884 --> 01:17:29.536
She's 16 years old.

1908
01:17:29.536 --> 01:17:30.870
"Would you have sex without a condom?"

1909
01:17:30.870 --> 01:17:32.641
She's like, "Absolutely not.

1910
01:17:32.641 --> 01:17:34.038
No, I wouldn't do that."

1911
01:17:34.038 --> 01:17:34.976
And I said,

1912
01:17:34.976 --> 01:17:37.782
"Well, sending photos of
yourself out on the internet

1913
01:17:37.782 --> 01:17:40.001
is like having sex without a condom,

1914
01:17:40.001 --> 01:17:41.579
because they're going to go,

1915
01:17:41.579 --> 01:17:43.200
they could go anywhere,
millions of places."

1916
01:17:43.200 --> 01:17:45.398
So that, in that way,
I got through to her.

1917
01:17:45.398 --> 01:17:47.509
But she was a person who isolated.

1918
01:17:47.509 --> 01:17:50.112
She was very over-protected by mom,

1919
01:17:50.112 --> 01:17:52.042
who had been a trauma survivor.

1920
01:17:52.042 --> 01:17:53.664
Very over-protected.

1921
01:17:53.664 --> 01:17:56.085
And so, with all that parental protection,

1922
01:17:56.085 --> 01:17:59.071
it afforded her a way to relay.

1923
01:17:59.071 --> 01:18:02.290
In a way that her writing

1924
01:18:02.290 --> 01:18:04.093
looked like pornography.

1925
01:18:04.093 --> 01:18:06.376
And the photos were very porn-[inaudible].

1926
01:18:06.376 --> 01:18:08.975
And we'd sat, had a long
discussion about porn.

1927
01:18:08.975 --> 01:18:11.451
And she actually believed
she was having sex.

1928
01:18:11.451 --> 01:18:12.711
Even though there was no
- [Faye] Right.

1929
01:18:12.711 --> 01:18:14.071
- [Voiceover] human, physical
- [Faye] Right.

1930
01:18:14.071 --> 01:18:15.479
- [Voiceover] contact.

1931
01:18:16.168 --> 01:18:17.138
- Right.

1932
01:18:17.138 --> 01:18:19.250
See, I think what's so
important about that,

1933
01:18:19.250 --> 01:18:23.580
is that there's very little
discussion happening like that.

1934
01:18:23.580 --> 01:18:26.566
The message is often just, "Don't do it."

1935
01:18:26.566 --> 01:18:30.183
And so I think that's exactly
the kinds of conversations

1936
01:18:30.183 --> 01:18:32.583
that adults need to be able to have.

1937
01:18:32.583 --> 01:18:34.716
And that's, again, where I
think social workers can help.

1938
01:18:34.716 --> 01:18:37.478
Because when I think of
teachers and parents,

1939
01:18:37.478 --> 01:18:38.630
the last thing they want to do is

1940
01:18:38.630 --> 01:18:40.486
have that kind of conversation.

1941
01:18:40.486 --> 01:18:42.843
But we need to really open that up,

1942
01:18:42.843 --> 01:18:46.086
because that's the conversation
that need to happen.

1943
01:18:51.556 --> 01:18:52.297
Yes?

1944
01:18:52.510 --> 01:18:54.606
- [Voiceover] Do you have
any recommendations for us,

1945
01:18:54.606 --> 01:18:57.209
for those of us who work
with kids and families,

1946
01:18:57.209 --> 01:19:00.793
how to learn more about
the different platforms.

1947
01:19:00.793 --> 01:19:03.620
You know, as I hear about
things from certain clients,

1948
01:19:03.620 --> 01:19:07.417
but you can't go on-line and snoop around,

1949
01:19:07.417 --> 01:19:08.675
and figure out what they are.

1950
01:19:08.675 --> 01:19:10.585
Because then, there you are.

1951
01:19:10.585 --> 01:19:12.907
- Well, you know, I think a
great thing for the young kids

1952
01:19:12.907 --> 01:19:14.837
is to let them show you the platforms.

1953
01:19:14.837 --> 01:19:16.704
I mean, they're happy to do that.

1954
01:19:16.704 --> 01:19:18.336
And you know, I don't mean show you

1955
01:19:18.336 --> 01:19:19.914
all the stuff that they're doing.

1956
01:19:19.914 --> 01:19:22.581
But I think, you know, just
like if you're talking to,

1957
01:19:22.581 --> 01:19:25.183
before this world, the class,

1958
01:19:25.183 --> 01:19:27.135
they would tell us about what they did.

1959
01:19:27.135 --> 01:19:28.532
So if this is what they do,

1960
01:19:28.532 --> 01:19:30.303
this is how the talk
about their relationships.

1961
01:19:30.303 --> 01:19:33.407
So I think that's a really
good way to have that happen.

1962
01:19:33.407 --> 01:19:36.724
So that they know that
we're interested in it,

1963
01:19:36.724 --> 01:19:38.932
not just about the problem of it.

1964
01:19:38.932 --> 01:19:40.681
Because I think that's the other issue.

1965
01:19:40.681 --> 01:19:42.068
We often often talked about

1966
01:19:42.068 --> 01:19:44.487
only as a problem, like anti-bullying.

1967
01:19:44.487 --> 01:19:46.439
And opposed to understanding it.

1968
01:19:46.439 --> 01:19:48.839
And understanding the good
things of the platforms.

1969
01:19:49.689 --> 01:19:50.537
Is that...?

1970
01:19:51.300 --> 01:19:52.580
- [Voiceover] It is, yeah.

1971
01:19:52.580 --> 01:19:54.564
I'm used to my teenage clients...

1972
01:19:54.564 --> 01:19:56.441
I'm used to like, if they tell me they

1973
01:19:56.441 --> 01:19:58.148
like a certain musician, and I'll go

1974
01:19:58.148 --> 01:19:59.388
and I'll listen to the music.
- [Faye] Yeah.

1975
01:19:59.388 --> 01:20:00.608
- [Voiceover] And then checking
it out, and that gives me

1976
01:20:00.608 --> 01:20:01.759
a lot of information.
- [Faye] Yeah.

1977
01:20:01.759 --> 01:20:04.229
- [Voiceover] And I read
the lyrics of the musician.

1978
01:20:04.229 --> 01:20:06.743
But it's harder with
something like Tumblr.

1979
01:20:06.743 --> 01:20:08.982
They can show show me what they've posted.

1980
01:20:08.982 --> 01:20:12.108
But I mean, I could get
them to show me more--

1981
01:20:12.108 --> 01:20:14.241
- [Faye] But so if it's Tumblr, let's say.

1982
01:20:14.241 --> 01:20:15.488
I don't know if people know Tumblr.

1983
01:20:15.488 --> 01:20:16.630
But Tumblr's a place where,

1984
01:20:16.630 --> 01:20:18.230
it's often considered a support place.

1985
01:20:18.230 --> 01:20:20.470
With kids who might, you know, be cutting,

1986
01:20:20.470 --> 01:20:22.134
or talking about eating disorders.

1987
01:20:22.134 --> 01:20:23.659
And they're getting support about that.

1988
01:20:23.659 --> 01:20:26.933
So I think it doesn't hurt to
go on there, just generally.

1989
01:20:26.933 --> 01:20:28.395
And just so you understand

1990
01:20:28.395 --> 01:20:30.581
what they're being exposed to on that.

1991
01:20:30.581 --> 01:20:33.493
Because, and again, for the most part,

1992
01:20:33.493 --> 01:20:35.402
they feel like it's a support.

1993
01:20:35.402 --> 01:20:37.471
And again, if you're an
adult and you look at it

1994
01:20:37.471 --> 01:20:39.198
and say, "Oh my God, they're being taught

1995
01:20:39.198 --> 01:20:40.564
how to do this."

1996
01:20:40.564 --> 01:20:43.327
But I do think there's a
point to understand it.

1997
01:20:43.327 --> 01:20:44.660
And understand what it means to them.

1998
01:20:44.660 --> 01:20:46.431
How is it helpful, how is it not.

1999
01:20:46.431 --> 01:20:48.223
So I do think it's the same thing.

2000
01:20:48.223 --> 01:20:51.860
Only you wouldn't be doing
it looking at their Tumblr,

2001
01:20:51.860 --> 01:20:53.662
you would just be
looking at it in general.

2002
01:20:54.772 --> 01:20:55.469
Yes?

2003
01:20:56.578 --> 01:20:58.031
- [Voiceover] I don't
know if you looked at this

2004
01:20:58.031 --> 01:20:59.471
in your research, but do you know,

2005
01:20:59.471 --> 01:21:03.354
has anyone looked at that effect of

2006
01:21:03.354 --> 01:21:06.180
something where the images of...

2007
01:21:06.180 --> 01:21:08.984
Images of cutting, for
example, and how that

2008
01:21:08.984 --> 01:21:11.076
then flows through the groups.

2009
01:21:11.076 --> 01:21:13.167
And has anyone looked at how that affects

2010
01:21:13.167 --> 01:21:15.849
the kids choices or their behaviors?

2011
01:21:16.689 --> 01:21:17.762
- Not that...

2012
01:21:17.762 --> 01:21:18.871
I'm not aware of that.

2013
01:21:18.871 --> 01:21:21.943
But I think that people are
just about to begin doing that.

2014
01:21:21.943 --> 01:21:23.959
I think people realize
that's very important.

2015
01:21:26.329 --> 01:21:26.995
Yes?

2016
01:21:27.376 --> 01:21:28.606
- [Voiceover] Faye, I'm just curious as to

2017
01:21:28.606 --> 01:21:30.622
how you got involved in this topic

2018
01:21:30.622 --> 01:21:33.022
and what it's been like for you to be

2019
01:21:33.022 --> 01:21:35.048
getting to know so many of
these social media sites

2020
01:21:35.048 --> 01:21:37.363
then, I assume, immersing
yourself in them?

2021
01:21:37.363 --> 01:21:39.603
- Well, I got involved in
the topic in a weird way.

2022
01:21:39.603 --> 01:21:41.853
When I was at UFT doing
research on bullying,

2023
01:21:41.853 --> 01:21:43.834
and we had a new Dean come in.

2024
01:21:44.464 --> 01:21:46.269
And he wanted us to have a new magazine.

2025
01:21:46.269 --> 01:21:48.936
So in this new magazine, he
had a little profile of me,

2026
01:21:48.936 --> 01:21:51.780
and a profile of somebody
else doing technology.

2027
01:21:51.780 --> 01:21:53.871
And Bell Canada came to us.

2028
01:21:53.871 --> 01:21:54.831
They had been,

2029
01:21:54.831 --> 01:21:57.028
this is the benefit of
being at a big university,

2030
01:21:57.028 --> 01:21:58.340
they came to us and said,

2031
01:21:58.340 --> 01:21:59.907
if we would write a proposal on

2032
01:21:59.907 --> 01:22:02.021
cyber world and something
to do with cyber,

2033
01:22:02.021 --> 01:22:03.146
they would do it.

2034
01:22:03.146 --> 01:22:05.286
So I, because...

2035
01:22:06.026 --> 01:22:08.299
I guess I had just been
hearing some stuff from kids.

2036
01:22:08.299 --> 01:22:10.956
I knew that that would be really valuable.

2037
01:22:10.956 --> 01:22:12.663
For me, it's been interesting.

2038
01:22:12.663 --> 01:22:17.152
Because when I started looking
at cyber abuse and risk,

2039
01:22:17.152 --> 01:22:19.915
the thing it took me
to is the cyber world.

2040
01:22:19.915 --> 01:22:22.442
And then also went to our therapy too.

2041
01:22:22.442 --> 01:22:24.790
Because the thing it
really made me realize

2042
01:22:24.790 --> 01:22:26.442
is that it really is a whole new world.

2043
01:22:26.442 --> 01:22:28.597
And that we're not dealing with it.

2044
01:22:30.937 --> 01:22:32.651
In terms of the images and stuff,

2045
01:22:32.651 --> 01:22:33.930
I've head to really struggle with that.

2046
01:22:33.930 --> 01:22:35.435
And I've spoken to
other people who do too.

2047
01:22:35.435 --> 01:22:37.034
Because on the one
hand, I see these images

2048
01:22:37.034 --> 01:22:39.071
and go, "Oh my God, they're awful."

2049
01:22:39.071 --> 01:22:40.394
And they are awful.

2050
01:22:40.394 --> 01:22:43.135
But then, so you can't
just say that to the kids.

2051
01:22:43.135 --> 01:22:46.057
So I realized the balances
of how to work with them.

2052
01:22:47.007 --> 01:22:49.322
Because this is part of the norm.

2053
01:22:49.322 --> 01:22:50.922
So how do you not condone it,

2054
01:22:50.922 --> 01:22:52.403
but not make it go underground?

2055
01:22:52.403 --> 01:22:53.971
So I feel that's the challenge.

2056
01:22:53.971 --> 01:22:56.456
Because I think it's very easy
to make it go underground.

2057
01:22:59.606 --> 01:23:00.240
Yes?

2058
01:23:00.240 --> 01:23:02.226
- [Voiceover] I have a
request and a question.

2059
01:23:02.226 --> 01:23:03.635
My request is, when you answer, can you

2060
01:23:03.635 --> 01:23:05.118
move back to the mic?
- [Faye] Oh, sorry.

2061
01:23:05.118 --> 01:23:06.856
Sorry, yes, OK, sorry.

2062
01:23:06.856 --> 01:23:07.635
OK.

2063
01:23:07.635 --> 01:23:09.768
- [Voiceover] And the question is,

2064
01:23:11.338 --> 01:23:13.204
I don't know if you've looked at this,

2065
01:23:13.204 --> 01:23:16.563
but do you imagine that there
are any cultural differences

2066
01:23:16.563 --> 01:23:19.603
between the Canadian experience
that you're studying,

2067
01:23:19.603 --> 01:23:21.074
and the US one?

2068
01:23:21.074 --> 01:23:23.571
They may well be exactly
the same, but I'm betting

2069
01:23:23.571 --> 01:23:26.194
there's something
culturally different there.

2070
01:23:27.004 --> 01:23:28.263
- I think there must be.

2071
01:23:28.263 --> 01:23:29.895
And I know I'm...

2072
01:23:29.895 --> 01:23:32.040
Although I'm, so far I'm not aware of it.

2073
01:23:32.040 --> 01:23:33.992
And I've worked with
some people in the states

2074
01:23:33.992 --> 01:23:35.089
who are doing it.

2075
01:23:35.089 --> 01:23:37.916
And again, I think it's so
new, we're still learning.

2076
01:23:39.196 --> 01:23:43.303
But so far, I've not been
really aware of any differences

2077
01:23:43.303 --> 01:23:46.722
with the ones who are doing
it in the states and Canada.

2078
01:23:47.992 --> 01:23:49.286
But it's very new.

2079
01:23:49.286 --> 01:23:50.854
It's very, you know, we're just having

2080
01:23:50.854 --> 01:23:52.272
to get more specific now.

2081
01:23:53.552 --> 01:23:54.414
Yes?

2082
01:23:56.536 --> 01:23:59.257
- [Voiceover] One thing I
really appreciated about your

2083
01:23:59.257 --> 01:24:02.288
talk this evening was
how you talked about how

2084
01:24:03.688 --> 01:24:07.010
technology is just an integral part of

2085
01:24:07.010 --> 01:24:10.723
a youth's experience these days.

2086
01:24:10.723 --> 01:24:13.816
And I also liked how you talked about how

2087
01:24:13.816 --> 01:24:17.484
there's a disparity in technology fluency

2088
01:24:17.484 --> 01:24:19.703
between parents and the children.

2089
01:24:19.703 --> 01:24:20.941
But I think that's the place

2090
01:24:20.941 --> 01:24:22.444
where it makes it really, really hard.

2091
01:24:22.444 --> 01:24:24.257
Because I think a lot
of parents do feel that

2092
01:24:24.257 --> 01:24:28.055
they're actively parenting,
when maybe in fact,

2093
01:24:28.055 --> 01:24:31.105
so many things are
slipping unnoticed by them.

2094
01:24:31.105 --> 01:24:32.161
I'm an educator of

2095
01:24:32.161 --> 01:24:34.561
middle school aged children.
- [Faye] So you would know.

2096
01:24:34.561 --> 01:24:36.098
- [Voiceover] So I'm
just wondering if you had

2097
01:24:36.098 --> 01:24:40.140
any recommendations for
maybe something I could do

2098
01:24:40.140 --> 01:24:41.868
to start a conversation with parents.

2099
01:24:41.868 --> 01:24:44.470
Because we have this curriculum
night every school year,

2100
01:24:44.470 --> 01:24:47.029
where we talk about what we're
going to cover over the year.

2101
01:24:47.029 --> 01:24:50.037
I'm really feeling the need to include

2102
01:24:50.037 --> 01:24:53.589
this whole cyber-reality as a...

2103
01:24:53.589 --> 01:24:56.683
sort of like a checkpoint for parents.

2104
01:24:56.683 --> 01:24:58.932
Where maybe I can start
that conversation and say,

2105
01:24:58.932 --> 01:25:02.143
"We need some more active parenting."

2106
01:25:02.143 --> 01:25:04.969
But they may not feel very much advocacy

2107
01:25:04.969 --> 01:25:07.936
with their own cyber abilities,

2108
01:25:07.936 --> 01:25:09.801
and to be able to actively parent.

2109
01:25:09.801 --> 01:25:11.558
So how, what would you
recommend for approaching--

2110
01:25:11.558 --> 01:25:12.518
- Well, I would say two things.

2111
01:25:12.518 --> 01:25:13.510
The first things I would say is,

2112
01:25:13.510 --> 01:25:15.366
I think parents need to
know that even though

2113
01:25:15.366 --> 01:25:17.883
the kids are technologically superior,

2114
01:25:17.883 --> 01:25:19.931
cognitively and emotionally, they're not.

2115
01:25:19.931 --> 01:25:21.701
So parents need to know they're needed.

2116
01:25:21.701 --> 01:25:23.654
That they actually can help them,

2117
01:25:23.654 --> 01:25:25.520
that they really need that help.

2118
01:25:25.520 --> 01:25:27.995
And I think they also need to know then,

2119
01:25:27.995 --> 01:25:29.498
that they don't have a choice.

2120
01:25:29.498 --> 01:25:32.571
That, and they don't need to
be as technologically adept.

2121
01:25:32.571 --> 01:25:34.682
Because one of the ways they can do it is

2122
01:25:34.682 --> 01:25:37.157
they can have their kids
teach them the technology.

2123
01:25:37.157 --> 01:25:38.767
So that can be part of the thing.

2124
01:25:38.767 --> 01:25:40.537
The kids can be teaching
them the technology.

2125
01:25:40.537 --> 01:25:42.298
And they can be talking with them

2126
01:25:42.298 --> 01:25:44.026
and opening that conversation.

2127
01:25:44.026 --> 01:25:45.166
And I think that's really important.

2128
01:25:45.166 --> 01:25:46.468
In Europe, one of the things they do,

2129
01:25:46.468 --> 01:25:48.399
they've always been ahead of
us with that part of that,

2130
01:25:48.399 --> 01:25:50.106
and part of it's because
their countries are smaller,

2131
01:25:50.106 --> 01:25:51.609
and they were homogeneous.

2132
01:25:51.609 --> 01:25:53.551
They don't focus just on anti-bullying.

2133
01:25:53.551 --> 01:25:57.988
They focus on pro-empathy,
pro-positive interaction.

2134
01:25:57.988 --> 01:25:59.311
So I think that's what you can do.

2135
01:25:59.311 --> 01:26:00.665
If that can be the deal.

2136
01:26:00.665 --> 01:26:02.733
But I think parents need
to know they're needed.

2137
01:26:02.733 --> 01:26:06.072
Because it's not right when
we say kids know it better.

2138
01:26:06.072 --> 01:26:07.885
They technologically
do, but they're not...

2139
01:26:07.885 --> 01:26:10.264
They're not prepared for that.

2140
01:26:11.254 --> 01:26:13.133
- [Voiceover] I think,
and I'm sorry to continue,

2141
01:26:13.133 --> 01:26:15.470
but the part about how you said

2142
01:26:15.470 --> 01:26:19.255
one of the things that keeps
kids from reporting bullying

2143
01:26:19.255 --> 01:26:21.282
is the fear that they'll
lose their technology.

2144
01:26:21.282 --> 01:26:22.380
Because I think that's the first

2145
01:26:22.380 --> 01:26:23.660
go-to for parents,
- [Faye] Absolutely.

2146
01:26:23.660 --> 01:26:24.506
- [Voiceover] is that, "I'm
taking your phone away."

2147
01:26:24.506 --> 01:26:25.891
- And it needs to be the last one.

2148
01:26:25.891 --> 01:26:27.438
- [Voiceover] Right, and
I think that's something

2149
01:26:27.438 --> 01:26:29.219
that I've learned tonight
through your presentation,

2150
01:26:29.219 --> 01:26:31.032
that I could maybe impart to parents.

2151
01:26:31.032 --> 01:26:33.101
That maybe that's not the best idea for...

2152
01:26:33.101 --> 01:26:34.093
- Absolutely.

2153
01:26:34.093 --> 01:26:36.985
In our research, that's what they all say.

2154
01:26:36.985 --> 01:26:38.937
And the other thing parents
need to know, I think,

2155
01:26:38.937 --> 01:26:40.333
is that they're given them,

2156
01:26:40.333 --> 01:26:41.495
they've gotten the message,

2157
01:26:41.495 --> 01:26:42.670
and they've given the message.

2158
01:26:42.670 --> 01:26:44.525
Everybody knows it's a risk.

2159
01:26:44.525 --> 01:26:47.448
Kids are doing it anyway, so
they don't need the lecture.

2160
01:26:47.448 --> 01:26:48.568
They need the help.

2161
01:26:48.568 --> 01:26:50.434
And they really, the other
thing I would say to parents is,

2162
01:26:50.434 --> 01:26:52.888
it's, and I would say,
like drinking and driving.

2163
01:26:52.888 --> 01:26:55.639
They need to help them
navigate this new world.

2164
01:26:55.639 --> 01:26:58.518
And it means expecting
there to be problems.

2165
01:26:58.518 --> 01:26:59.414
And...

2166
01:26:59.414 --> 01:27:03.329
And the parents need
help to not overreact.

2167
01:27:03.329 --> 01:27:05.996
Because often they'll think
it means they're condoning.

2168
01:27:05.996 --> 01:27:07.724
So we need to give that option,

2169
01:27:07.724 --> 01:27:11.319
"But if you get into
trouble, come talk to us."

2170
01:27:11.319 --> 01:27:13.557
Because kids are very aware
and they feel like that.

2171
01:27:13.557 --> 01:27:14.624
And they use words like their,

2172
01:27:14.624 --> 01:27:16.011
like, "My parents will hate me.

2173
01:27:16.011 --> 01:27:17.912
They think I'm disgustiing."

2174
01:27:18.432 --> 01:27:19.882
- [Voiceover] Thank you.

2175
01:27:20.732 --> 01:27:21.295
- OK.

2176
01:27:21.295 --> 01:27:23.040
- [Voiceover] ...I think
you should call it a night.

2177
01:27:23.040 --> 01:27:26.798
And again, thank you...
(audiences claps)

2178
01:27:34.548 --> 01:27:35.591
Excellent.

2179
01:27:35.591 --> 01:27:36.599
- Was it OK?

2180
01:27:36.599 --> 01:27:37.521
- [Josh] It was really good.

2181
01:27:37.521 --> 01:27:38.389
- OK, [inaudible]